3.1 Upcoming Changes - Page 8

songster · 02/17/09, 3:53 PM

There is no dual spec cooldown.

Radroit · 02/17/09, 4:10 PM

I have a couple thoughts: Why not just do away with the entire dual spec concept? Let's say we just don't get into remote stables and how long the CD is?

How about if you want to respec you go see the trainer and pay the fee? The more often you do it, the more it costs, to a limit.

How about if you want a different pet you go talk to a stable person? You need a pet, they got your selection, ready to go.

Clearly this post reflects my unhappiness with Blizz and the continuing trend of making everything easy and simple. The mystique is rapidly dissipating. At this rate the hardest chore I will have to handle will be remembering my logon name and password...once I'm in, I choose whatever loot I want and then hang around and look cool.

I suppose I'm violating a forum rule here, and I don't mean to. I'm just tired of how straightforward...how linear the game has become.

Khassandra · 02/17/09, 4:20 PM

The Ulduar preview has been released and we know that a significant part of several fights will include having to use vehicles such as siege engines. (Personally, I despise having to use vehicles of any sort for fighting.) Obviously, we won't be able to use our pets for these fights, so I'm wondering just how many other fights there will be in Ulduar where pets are useless and/or an outright liability.

Esoth · 02/17/09, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by Khassandra

The Ulduar preview has been released and we know that a significant part of several fights will include having to use vehicles such as siege engines. (Personally, I despise having to use vehicles of any sort for fighting.) Obviously, we won't be able to use our pets for these fights, so I'm wondering just how many other fights there will be in Ulduar where pets are useless and/or an outright liability.

Well, if we're using vehicles doesn't that make all of our gear and talents moot as well? Perhaps I'm not understanding why pets are the problem with siege vehicle fights.

Khassandra · 02/17/09, 5:21 PM

I didn't say they were a problem. I said I wonder how many other fights there will be in Ulduar where pets are useless and/or a liability. Kind of makes the whole switching pets mid-raid questionable if we aren't going to be able to use pets in many fights anyway.

alienangel · 02/17/09, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Khassandra

I didn't say they were a problem. I said I wonder how many other fights there will be in Ulduar where pets are useless and/or a liability. Kind of makes the whole switching pets mid-raid questionable if we aren't going to be able to use pets in many fights anyway.

Other than the one vehicle fight, I'd imagine pets will be as usable in Ulduar as in any other instance, no reason to assume otherwise. And it's not just pets that aren't usable in vehicle fights, usually shadowbolts, steady shots, bloodthirsts and poisons can't be used in such fights either.

Cranch · 02/17/09, 6:34 PM

Originally Posted by Esoth

Well, if we're using vehicles doesn't that make all of our gear and talents moot as well? Perhaps I'm not understanding why pets are the problem with siege vehicle fights.

Not quite. According to Daelo, your vehicle stats are improved with better gear. With best in slot gear, you can catapult your gnome right to the instance entrance!

Personally, I like being stretched to do things that are different than my normal rotation. I really enjoyed the levelling quests where you ride on the back of a giant. Malygos P3 is annoying but that's mostly due to targeting issues and the combatlog not telling you anything about vehicle damage. Hopefully Blizzard will fix that in 3.1.

TrevvyTrev · 02/17/09, 7:05 PM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

It's not about what people would rather have, it's about what everyone else got. If you buff everyone else (e.g. hand out $20 to everybody) except one person got a lesser buff (e.g. I only got $10) it's a fair objection to ask why that one person got left out.

In more actual terms, we can surely assume the fights in Ulduar will vary in their pet friendliness. Supposing BM comes out to be the highest dps spec for pet friendly fights, and supposing further that exotic pets will continue to be the best, the fact that our pet switching is on cooldown puts us at a relative disadvantage compared to other classes that have full flexibility in their spec switching. We can switch pets on our own on the cooldown, but beyond that we will need to hearth (also on cooldown) or portal followed by a summon.

Except every other spec already has a flexibility advantage over exotic pet specs. They can respec at trainers and port back to the raid. Bam, they are done. BM exotic hunters have to respec at trainers AND get new pets from the stables AND respec those pets because they lost talent points.

Hunters use stables now. No one else does. Other classes aren't getting something that hunters aren't. They just continue to not be bound by a restriction that never has applied to them. Even if Blizzard maintains the relative status quo, that isn't preferential treatment. If other classes used stables (or something similar) and had those requirements lifted, but hunters did not, then we could complain about hunters being left out. The analogy is mangled to the point of uselessness by now but I'll try to resurrect it. You're not complaining about Blizzard giving everyone else $20 and you got $10. You're complaining about Blizzard giving you and everyone $10, but some people already had $10 and you didn't. What you're asking is for Blizzard to give you MORE than everyone else so that you can catch up.

The catch is, they actually are doing that somewhat. No one else is having any of their unique class burdens eased because of dual specs, and hunters actually ARE (to some extent) because instead of having to go to the stable all the time to switch pets, they only have to go sometimes (or never, depending on how often they really need to switch). If you want a more concrete example, take deathknights. They use class-specific enchants on their weapons that require a Runeforge to change. There are a limited number of these throughout the world. If a DK switches specs, and wants to switch runes, then they still have to port or travel to a runeforge -- they aren't, as far as we know, getting a "summon runeforge" spell on a CD. Maybe they will get one -- and if it's on a shorter CD than ours then we can complain.

It's not even worth going into the pet friendliness issue because we have no idea how unfriendly those fights will be, nor do we know whether there will be a pet unfriendly fight followed by a pet friendly fight followed by another pet unfriendly fight so close together such that your CD isn't up. Moreover, the assumption that exotic pets will be the highest dps is dubious. The spreadsheets have convinced min-max BM hunters to use raptors. Those don't require a stable change.

FelinGreenleaf · 02/17/09, 8:52 PM

Originally Posted by Rezdan

You actually don't want to put off your Chimera Shot for more Serpent Sting ticks. It should be used asap every cooldown since it is by far the most damaging shot in your arsenal.

Ah, true.

The bleed is still nice, and I suppose my longer sting will still come in handy during PvP if someone gets away.

KraxisSingular · 02/17/09, 9:06 PM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

Moreover, the assumption that exotic pets will be the highest dps is dubious. The spreadsheets have convinced min-max BM hunters to use raptors. Those don't require a stable change.

Mainly because Devilsaurs are a pain to manage due to hitbox issues (and generally diliked by other raiders). If Blizzard ever 'fixed' the 'Saur I'm sure it would gain prominence.

TrevvyTrev · 02/17/09, 9:51 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

Mainly because Devilsaurs are a pain to manage due to hitbox issues (and generally diliked by other raiders). If Blizzard ever 'fixed' the 'Saur I'm sure it would gain prominence.

That may be why I don't like them, but that's not reflected in the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet assumes ideal conditions, and the BM-raptor specs (currently) outdamage the BM-Devilsaur ones, according to the "Best Possible DPS ..." thread. That may change when they add a new tier of pet talents, but Raptors will have access to the new tier of abilities too. It's not a foregone conclusion that the Devilsaur will come out ahead of the pack, and GC said that they would like to look at more pet parity but have been focused on the issues with getting the specs in line overall. Plus, raptors are the "best" dps pets for the other specs, so there's an incentive to level one up anyway, if you're really intent on switching specs.

Even if the Devilsaur comes out ahead, the margin may not be so large that it's worth people trying to use one if the CD on the mobile stable is unwieldy (I show a 20-30 dps difference between them in a BM exotic spec on the spreadsheet). It's also worth noting that there's a stable master that both factions can use that's about a 30 second flight from Ulduar, which can be used as a last resort. We're working way too hard to make this a "thing" at this point.

I promise I will be right there with everyone else if the feature comes out and it's too hard to use because of the stable CD. I just can't get there yet based on speculation.

JoeF-3 · 02/17/09, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by FelinGreenleaf

Ah, true.

The bleed is still nice, and I suppose my longer sting will still come in handy during PvP if someone gets away.

It should also be pointed out that if you wait til your sting is almost finished, and your rotation gets interrupted for a second or two, you might miss out on all the bonus damage Chimera gives.

FelinGreenleaf · 02/18/09, 4:28 AM

Originally Posted by JoeF-3

It should also be pointed out that if you wait til your sting is almost finished, and your rotation gets interrupted for a second or two, you might miss out on all the bonus damage Chimera gives.

This is why I like the Glyph.
I'm a clicker, and I need a new mouse, so every so often I'll miss the timing.

Sylvand · 02/18/09, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

Other classes aren't getting something that hunters aren't.

Logistics aside, other classes are getting the ability to effectively switch specs at any time (out of combat etc.) with only a (summoned) lexicon of power; hunters are not.

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

If a DK switches specs, and wants to switch runes, then they still have to port or travel to a runeforge

This is pretty close, but even if a DK wants the same weapon with a different rune (as opposed to a different weapon with a different rune) there is still potential that he could get the item twice and carry one with each rune.

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

the assumption that exotic pets will be the highest dps is dubious. The spreadsheets have convinced min-max BM hunters to use raptors.

Sorry if it wasn't clear, when I said "BM hunter" I meant to say "exotic spec hunter". Min-max BM doesn't spec exotic today, that is the only reason they stick with raptor. Of course if exotic spec still sucks or exotic pets suck, no one will care that our remote stable is on a long cooldown, or that we have a remote stable at all (well maybe it would be nice at the start of the raid if you forgot to grab your raiding pet).

songster · 02/18/09, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

Logistics aside, other classes are getting the ability to effectively switch specs at any time (out of combat etc.) with only a (summoned) lexicon of power; hunters are not.

Um, why not wait and see what the feature actually looks like? Better still, get on the PTR, test it, give feedback through the appropriate channels. All they have said so far is that (a) the intent is for you to switch spec without a cooldown and (b) Hunters can access the stable remotely, but with a long cooldown.

Clearly there is a contradiction here in that speccing BM with the intent to use an exotic pet requires you to change pet, and so necessarily implies a stable access. That being so, it's not at all unlikely that switching to or from Beastmastery will reset the cooldown on the "remote stable", to allow you to get out an exotic or non-exotic pet as required. Other spec switches (Survival to Marks, or swapping points around within trees) don't force you to change pet.

Nooska · 02/18/09, 5:45 AM

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

It's not even worth going into the pet friendliness issue because we have no idea how unfriendly those fights will be, nor do we know whether there will be a pet unfriendly fight followed by a pet friendly fight followed by another pet unfriendly fight so close together such that your CD isn't up. Moreover, the assumption that exotic pets will be the highest dps is dubious. The spreadsheets have convinced min-max BM hunters to use raptors. Those don't require a stable change.

I think you are missing our point because you are - from the way you describe the switch, as well as from the sequence of bossfights described here - assuming that its a non-bm spec that wants to spec bm for 1 fight.
The problem we are describing is the other way around really;

Pet friendly fights, Pet unfriendly fight (singular), pet friendly fights.
We are assuming a BM spec "having to" spec out of bm for one fight, and then back - this is where a Cooldown that slonger than a bosskill becomes unwieldy - for BM spec (with exotic pet). The other 2 specs are fine in the circumstances you describe - we are not arguing that.

Originally Posted by TrevvyTrev

It's also worth noting that there's a stable master that both factions can use that's about a 30 second flight from Ulduar, which can be used as a last resort. We're working way too hard to make this a "thing" at this point.

Except that reasoning is a fallacy - I doubt very much any raidgroup will be happy with having you leave the instance, take a 30 second flight to the nearest stablemaster, switching pets, flying back and running back in (or even getting sumoned) - most raidgroups are unhappy enough about getting a mage to make you a portal and getting you summoned back by a warlock (summoning stone). Its not about how close they are, but about how much downtime you create for the raid if you switch spec.
The reason to even switch spec is to benefit ther aid, and I don't see many raiders thinking its a benefit sittuing around waiting for the hunter to get back because he used switch option along with 30% of the raid.
What was being said earlier in the thread about hunteres only getting 10$ is a working analogy.
Not the most accurate, but its accurate enough. all classes get a new toy, dualspec, that can be used in raid. Hunters get a penalty on using that toy IF they are BM hunters using exotic pets.

Of course there is an easy way around this - having a deep bm talent (like beastmastery itself, as its only really an issue with exotic pets) grant a significant cooldown redution to the portable stable. It would also fit with the general concept of the BM hunter being a master of beasts, and not just one.

This would also only affect switches back to BM, as you would have to be beastmaster to get the reduction - so it wouldn't apply to MM/SV switching BM for a fight, and then back. Sure they get the reduction for when switching back, but with dual specs they have been BM for the fight, and should be able to switch back to BM again at the same time as a 'mainspec' BM would.

songster · 02/18/09, 5:58 AM

There's several options:

1) Reset the cooldown whenever you spec into or out of Beastmastery

2) Save a pet for each spec, as planned for glyphs - so the stable cooldown only applies to changing pet away from the "default" for that spec.

3) Talents in some tree to reduce the cooldown and make some directions of spec change easier than others

... etc.

thesmoosh · 02/18/09, 6:09 AM

Since when did EJ become the hangout for the "let's bitch about stuff we know nothing about" crowd?

For the love of all that is holy, at least wait until you have more information about dual-specs before you complain. I prefer to read actually useful things on this forum.

TrevvyTrev · 02/18/09, 8:39 AM

Originally Posted by Sylvand

Logistics aside, other classes are getting the ability to effectively switch specs at any time (out of combat etc.) with only a (summoned) lexicon of power; hunters are not.

This is pretty close, but even if a DK wants the same weapon with a different rune (as opposed to a different weapon with a different rune) there is still potential that he could get the item twice and carry one with each rune.

Can we stop using "hunters" as a shorthand for "exotic-specced BM hunters that actually use exotics instead of non-exotics even in those circumstances where it would be more convenient for them to use a non-exotic pet because they anticipate needing to switch to another spec and back within the time of their stable cooldown?"

As for DKs and runes, are we really now saying that it's more burdensome for some hunters with a certain spec to maybe (see below) sometimes have to use the stable (which they've been using for 4 years now) as it is for DKs to loot identical copies of weapons from raids? -- "Hey guys, I'm going to loot a second Betrayer of Humanity so that I can change runes without needing to use my 15 minute port to Ebon Hold and a resummon. Everyone's cool with that, right?"

Originally Posted by Nooska

I think you are missing our point because you are - from the way you describe the switch, as well as from the sequence of bossfights described here - assuming that its a non-bm spec that wants to spec bm for 1 fight.
The problem we are describing is the other way around really;

Pet friendly fights, Pet unfriendly fight (singular), pet friendly fights.
We are assuming a BM spec "having to" spec out of bm for one fight, and then back - this is where a Cooldown that slonger than a bosskill becomes unwieldy - for BM spec (with exotic pet). The other 2 specs are fine in the circumstances you describe - we are not arguing that.

[snip]

Except that reasoning is a fallacy - I doubt very much any raidgroup will be happy with having you leave the instance, take a 30 second flight to the nearest stablemaster, switching pets, flying back and running back in (or even getting sumoned) - most raidgroups are unhappy enough about getting a mage to make you a portal and getting you summoned back by a warlock (summoning stone). Its not about how close they are, but about how much downtime you create for the raid if you switch spec.

There are a lot of assumptions you guys are making:

1. "Pet unfriendly" means so unfriendly that it is worth completely changing specs for the fight.
2. Being specced into exotics means you have to use an exotic, or suffer a dps loss.
3. The dps loss between 51-exotic and 51-raptor/cat/whatever is significant.
4. The need to switch only happens during inconvenient spots of the instance.
5. The raid wouldn't gain more dps by you being a completely different spec anyway.
6. The raid absolutely refuses to work around your cooldowns, even though they routinely do this for other specs and classes now.

What I'm assuming is that you can plan ahead. Just like right now I don't even bring a Devilsaur to Sarth even though I remain specced for exotics, in Ulduar you can use a raptor (as 51-BM) for the fights leading up to the "pet unfriendly" one. The Raptor does more dps than a non-51 point Raptor because of the new tier of pet talents they are adding, so we aren't talking about the current min/max BM spec. Then, on the pet gibbing fight, you switch to Survival. You don't need to use your stable CD, because Survival hunters are allowed to use raptors. You kill the pet unfriendly boss. Then you decide to switch back because there aren't any more pet unfriendly fights to worry about for the near future. You switch back to BM, blow your stable CD, and get out your exotic. Smooth sailing. It's only a problem if you have to switch back to a non-exotic spec during the same raid before your CD has expired.

Yes, you might lose dps for using the raptor for those fights leading up to the switch. But you might lose even MORE dps by not spending the entire raid as survival, so if your raid was full of asshats who cared about your low-double digit dps loss, they would care even more about your using the "wrong" spec.

Speaking of assuming your raid members are asshats, it's worth reminding people that raids port people all the way back to cities and resummon them right now if it will "benefit the raid." If it will benefit the raid if you switch specs from exotic and non-exotic and back, then they will let you port/hearth/zone out and resummon. If it's not worth it to them, then it may not be worth it for you to even switch for the pet unfriendly fight (I don't switch specs on Thaddius) or they may pressure you into being a higher dps spec for the entire instance.

Either way, you're assuming there isn't a workaround to a problem that hasn't even been identified yet, and complaining about it.

alienangel · 02/18/09, 9:42 AM

I think the two of you have covered all reasonable points about this issue now. Let it go until we have something on the PTR other than vague forum posts. If Blizzard gets it wrong, the PTR forum is available for feedback.

Personally I'll be near ecstatic just to be able to switch pets without a stable even once a day, but given the talent switching, making the cooldown reset whenever you respec would be a simple fix to just about all the issues. Feel free to suggest it or your preferred solution to Blizzard once PTRs are up.

Now, I hope whatever makes the Hodir's Spear vehicle bug out sometimes when I have a pet out already don't happen on the Ulduar vehicles.

kabes · 02/18/09, 9:52 AM

Personally, with the new pet talent tiers I think that they could remove exotic pets all together and just let any hunter tame them. With the new pet talents the 51pt talent will be worth it anyway IMO. If exotics did more damage then I could see the reasoning but they don't.

It could solve some of these issues with stable cooldowns and wanting to switch back to an exotic pet again, etc.

KraxisSingular · 02/18/09, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by alienangel

INow, I hope whatever makes the Hodir's Spear vehicle bug out sometimes when I have a pet out already don't happen on the Ulduar vehicles.

The TRUTH! However I experience it every time I have forgotten to dismiss my pet.
This is a thing that could hamper us if the fight requires a lot of jumping in and out of vehicles. But such a glaring deficiency should come up pretty fast on the PTR, and hopefully get fixed. Right now it is at most an inconvinience. And the same applies to the stable CD. If a lot of Hunters experience this as a limiting factor they will say so on the PTR. If not, well then it really isn't that much of an issue right? Lets just wait and see if we should complain or not.

In other 'news', with the preview there is at least one mechanical boss, I assume he is the vehicle-kill boss. But I could be wrong. I also checked up on Loken, and was surprised to see him as Uncategorized, and his type might just be more common in there... I really hope that Blizzard doesn't make a Lootreaver/Hydross fail again. It would negatively affect too many people. Especially after the pat on the back to the Paladins and their Undead/Demon bonus not really helping them against other types. Overall though the bosses appear to be a smattering of Humanoids (Thorim) and Giants (Freya), which is odd really as they are supposedly siblings.

TrevvyTrev · 02/18/09, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

I really hope that Blizzard doesn't make a Lootreaver/Hydross fail again. It would negatively affect too many people.

How so? If you mean the bleed/poison issue they changed that a long time ago so that mechanicals and elementals aren't immune to either one, unless for some reason they specifically decide to make an NPC immune to them.

The tracking issue is probably why the talent is so good to begin with. If it applied to every fight because they never make anything that isn't trackable anymore, then it just becomes 5% more damage all the time -- seems almost silly to even make hunters jump through the hoop of having a track type activated.

Fierra · 02/18/09, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

In other 'news', with the preview there is at least one mechanical boss, I assume he is the vehicle-kill boss. But I could be wrong.

From MMO-Champion on the First Boss:

One such threat is the Flame Leviathan. After you've plowed through the innumerable ranks of the Iron Army, you will be confronted by an enormous tank. Mimiron built the Flame Leviathan as part of the V0-L7R-0N weapons platform, which means that it packs quite a punch

Flame Leviathan is a tank; should be an interesting fight!

Catalept · 02/18/09, 8:10 PM

Given that Blizzard reduced the hoop-jumping required for Improved Tracking a lot in 3.0.8, someone could be forgiven for assuming that it's intended to be a flat 5% buff delivered via a hunter-flavored mechanic. Smallprint saying "*usually" puts it in a slightly odd category (imagine if Cruelty deliberately didn't work when fighting Undead, for instance)... however, there are plenty of other encounter-specific factors that inhibit hunter DPS (e.g. Thaddius charges, Malygos sparks).

Generalizing a type-specific damage boost makes sense... a talent that's "mostly useless" is manifestly ill-conceived in a "bring the player" environment. However, broadening the scope of an "mostly useful" talent is an entirely different proposition. I suspect that a minor DPS loss against untrackable targets falls under Blizzard's "We can't make all encounters friendly to all classes" category, even if in this case it's a little arbitrary (vs. something more 'natural', such as mana efficiency being less useful in a stop-start fight).