How so? If you mean the bleed/poison issue they changed that a long time ago so that mechanicals and elementals aren't immune to either one, unless for some reason they specifically decide to make an NPC immune to them.
The tracking issue is probably why the talent is so good to begin with. If it applied to every fight because they never make anything that isn't trackable anymore, then it just becomes 5% more damage all the time -- seems almost silly to even make hunters jump through the hoop of having a track type activated.
No I meant on the scale of it. Not nessecarily bleed/poison immunities.
A boss here and there is ok, but if they introduce several in one tier that is not affected by Imp Tracking, then it becomes an almost targeted issue. Most other talents that buff damage against specific targets do so against a limited portion, like Murder or Crusade. They target most enemies by sheer percentages in those categories, but leave enough open to not work. I'm Tracking doesn't work against two types, Mechanicals and Uncategorized. Highly uncommon both. That was the fail of the two bosses, they were so uncommon that including them negatively affected people in a way that should have happened.
I won't mind if Yogg-Saron is Uncategorized (fitting with nobody really knowing what the heck it is) since at that point any Hunter would have been along all the way until then. They would have put in the work to get there. But if we talk the last three bosses being styled like Loken (Uncategorized), then it isn't that awesome.
The limitation I have felt of Imp Tracking is that it might not always apply to all mobs, there will be times when you will be less efficient on trash. But bosses are a fair bit more different. And I wouldn't say it is that good, obviously it is great, but it only compares to Murder in value against the targets for three more points (remember the pet isn't affected). By the simple virtue of being a Hunter the talent is limited.
I would have really liked it if improved tracking would work against marked targets and you would track any targets marked by someone of your raid. I think this would cover some issues and concerns about it. Maybe someone at Blizzard still thinks about doing something like that. *hope*
From reading the blue responses in the forum I think that even though it is a PvP change by removing the stun from TnT I believe it will affect the talent to a degree in PvE. I can not see blizzard keeping it as a three point talent that only increases the crit chance of ES by 3% per point. Now I understand that ES is a vital part of the SV spec but with the current state of LnL and that it will proc more often from freezing trap, and the assumption they will be doing something different with trap mastery the question now is if TnT even be useful anymore for its 3 talent points?
ES makes up about 40-45% of our DPS with a crit rate of about 60% At 2.3 times damage on crits we get. (Based on 5/5 Mortal Shots)
.4*X + .6*X*2.3 = 45% (assuming top end)
1.78 X = 45%
X = 25.3%
meaning that ES is about 25% of our DPS before it crits. So assuming the rule is 1% DPS for each talent point unless it offers PvP or other utility we need to get 3% dps increase from 9% more crit to ES. With 9% more crit we will see ES base dmg go up about .0.09*25 = 2.25%
So if my rough math is correct we are getting a 2.25% increase in total DPS from TnT. Will this still be worth it? Could we see it changes to 2 points offering 4 or 5% increase crit to ES instead?
Note: This is based on rough numbers and not on the detailed calc’s including resists etc. Also feel free to check and correct my math.
From reading the blue responses in the forum I think that even though it is a PvP change by removing the stun from TnT I believe it will affect the talent to a degree in PvE. I can not see blizzard keeping it as a three point talent that only increases the crit chance of ES by 3% per point. Now I understand that ES is a vital part of the SV spec but with the current state of LnL and that it will proc more often from freezing trap, and the assumption they will be doing something different with trap mastery the question now is if TnT even be useful anymore for its 3 talent points?
<snip...>
So if my rough math is correct we are getting a 2.25% increase in total DPS from TnT. Will this still be worth it? Could we see it changes to 2 points offering 4 or 5% increase crit to ES instead?
Could you post the link to the blue post about removing the stun from TnT please? It would make sense, but I haven't seen any such post yet.
As for whether LnL is worth it, I don't see anywhere else to put points for a raid build anyway, so I think we'd still put at least 2 points into it to go further down the tree. Making it do nothing other than ES doesn't really fit into the way other survival talents are though (most have a PvP/utility buff along with a dps buff).
It should be mentioned that Plops' suggestion to remove the stun from TNT was meant to be accompanied by the removal of all RNG-based stuns, including impact and blackout. He wasn't trying to say that TNT alone is an overpowering ability for hunters, but rather that RNG stuns are winning or losing high ranked games.
Originally Posted by Florrie
What flavour of hipster racism am i missing today?
I do understand where he was coming from and I do think the blizzard will indeed go down this path. GC response was a typical blue response saying they know of the concern. I am just trying to decide that if/when the stun component is removed if I should still consider TnT in my raiding build or not. The only way I could justify TnT before was that being on a PvP server that it helped a lot dealing with the opposite faction and that no other options were more of a benefit.
I will admit though that until I ran the numbers I didn't realize how low a return per point the talent actually was on raw DPS when in current top end gear.
I do understand where he was coming from and I do think the blizzard will indeed go down this path. GC response was a typical blue response saying they know of the concern. I am just trying to decide that if/when the stun component is removed if I should still consider TnT in my raiding build or not. The only way I could justify TnT before was that being on a PvP server that it helped a lot dealing with the opposite faction and that no other options were more of a benefit.
I will admit though that until I ran the numbers I didn't realize how low a return per point the talent actually was on raw DPS when in current top end gear.
Again, assuming you're going deeper into survival, what else would you spend points in? I don't think anything else is a DPS gain at all, so TnT being merely a low DPS gain (and over 2% for 3 points isn't all that low actually) isn't a problem.
With Blizzard removing them from almost every other source it makes sense that a 15% proc rate is to much for their liking.
Ghostcrawler was even more specific than that:
Originally we thought getting rid of the mace spec stun was sufficient. Now we think random stuns are probably not good for the game across the board. You don't need to ask about individual talents or spells. If it is a random chance to stun attached to another spell or ability, chances are we will phase it out.
Again, assuming you're going deeper into survival, what else would you spend points in? I don't think anything else is a DPS gain at all, so TnT being merely a low DPS gain (and over 2% for 3 points isn't all that low actually) isn't a problem.
I think he was reffering to the upcoming changes in 3.1; there might be a better talent added on or before that tier. Something related to the change to trap use? Ofcourse this is pretty much speculation at this point, and I may well be reading it wrong
Last edited by Darrknar : 02/21/09 at 12:23 PM.
Reason: Added detail.
Frost Trap: If the target who triggers Frost Trap is immune to its effect, the Frost Trap area effect will no longer be triggered.
Talents
Beast Mastery
Improved Aspect of the Hawk now has a new spell effect.
Improved Wing Clip: This talent has been removed.
Marksmanship
Piercing Shots re-designed: Your critical Aimed, Steady and Chimera Shots cause the target to bleed for 10/20/30% of the damage dealt over 8 sec.
Ranged Weapon Specialization: Points reduced from 5 to 3, 1/3/5%.
Wild Quiver: Chance increased to 4/8/12%, up from 4/7/10%. Damage increased from 50% of an auto shot, to 80%.
Survival
Hunting Party: This talent has been reduced to 3-points, and now increases your total Agility by an additional 1/2/3%.
Lock and Load re-designed: You now have a 33/66/100% chance when you trap a target with Freezing Trap, Freezing Arrow or Frost Trap and a 2/4/6% chance when you deal periodic damage with your Immolation Trap or Black Arrow to cause your next 2 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot spells to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana and consume no ammo. This now has a new spell effect and sound.
New Talent: Trap Launcher: When activated, your next Trap will be launched instantly at the enemy target. 1 minute cooldown.
T.N.T. re-designed: Increases the damage done by your Explosive Shot, Explosive Trap and Immolation Trap by 2/4/6%, and gives your Explosive Shot a 33/66/100% chance to refresh the duration of your Immolation Trap effect on the target.
Trap Mastery: This talent has been moved up to tier-2, up from tier-9.
Wyvern Sting duration increased from 12 sec to 30 sec. PvP duration reduced from 10 sec to 6 sec.
Pets
Roar of Sacrifice can be used on the hunter only.
Stampede (rhino) only affects 1 target, but adds a 25% bleed damage debuff (that does not stack with Mangle etc.) in addition to its knockback.
...and a 2/4/6% chance when you deal periodic damage with your Immolation Trap or Black Arrow to cause your next 2 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot spells to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana and consume no ammo.
Black Arrow?
Also, it looks like there's a few nice buffs in here for MM and Surv. Curious about the changes to Imp AotH.
So, deep MM has received several buffs to sustained dps coming from RWS and WQ changes and even the mechanics of Piercing Shots is tested.
Hunting Party received an expected Hunter-only effect.
Assuming the new LnL works as the change stated, Serpent Sting and activating damaging traps will no longer proc LnL. Also, the first line states that we can no longer Frost Trap bosses to proc LnL. What's interesting is the inclusion of Black Arrow in the tooltip, but I'm going to leave speculation on this until we get the full details from the PTR.
Survival Summary:
No more direct LNL procs from trap dancing. No more Serpent Sting proccing LNL. Immolation Trap used with the new talent Trap Launcher will be our source of LNL but the low proc chance is kind of disappointing. The big question is wether the internal LNL cooldown still exists.
TnT has new synergy with Immolation Trap and Trap Launcher meaning we should be seeing Immolation Trap up on the target nearly 100% with proper use of Explosive Shot.
Wyvern change is expected from a PVP standpoint. Trap Mastery thankfully moved from deep Surv.
According to MMO-Champions talent calculator, Black Arrow is the new Survival 41 pt talent.
"Fires a Black Arrow at the target, increasing all damage done by you to the target by 6% and dealing [ 10% of RAP + 2765 ] Shadow damage over 15 sec."
I'm kind of scared of what could happen with Glyph of Immolation trap, and the trap effect kept rolling 100% of the time with Explosive Shot and the new T.N.T.. That seems like it could be a major DPS boost.
If you aren't a goblin, why not?
If you are a goblin you rule
According to MMO-Champions talent calculator, Black Arrow is the new Survival 41 pt talent.
"Fires a Black Arrow at the target, increasing all damage done by you to the target by 6% and dealing [ 10% of RAP + 2765 ] Shadow damage over 15 sec."
The thing is... where is Trap Launcher? I don't see it anywhere in the MMOChamp talent calc. I'm really wondering whether or not some of their info is legit right now.
How can you help?
I can shoot things and then make my pet move toward them.
Immo trap scales pretty badly with AP (10% coeff). Using 7k AP as an example, then with glyph:
i) 2585 damage over 15s, for 172 dps. Ticks for 517. Somewhat weaker than unimproved serpent sting.
ii) 3102 damage over 9s, for 345 dps. Ticks for 1034.
Not impressive unimproved, but assuming the glyph remains unchanged it becomes quite good. Still scales poorly, but it's not bad.
The thing is... where is Trap Launcher? I don't see it anywhere in the MMOChamp talent calc. I'm really wondering whether or not some of their info is legit right now.
Yeah, I think immolation trap with the glyph is going to basically push serpent sting out of the rotation. Assuming you keep Glyph of AotH, then you've got to either take out glyph of serpent sting or steady shot, either way serpent sting looks less attractive. Additionally its become harder to fit noxious stings into a spec if you want to go 6 points into BM. Then when on top of that serpent sting is no longer triggering LnL it just starts to seem like its a waste. I will most likely drop both glyphs of steady/serpent and replace them with Immo and Multi-Shot. I think this is all especially true when you consider that we're going to be forced to be much more diligent with our explosive shot cooldowns, as Immolation trap when glyphed will have a 7.5 second duration, meaning we have one global after our explosive shot cooldown pops to refresh it through T.N.T.. When you throw in black arrow (assuming mmo-champ is correct) and multi/aimed depending on your preference I think the rotation has just become too tight, and serpent sting's ancillary benefits are no longer as attractive.
The new Sniper Training will likely bring push aimed shot ahead of multishot. 1/15/54 with 1 floater point. Glyphs of IAotH, Immo Trap and Serpent Sting (maybe).
I'm kind of scared of what could happen with Glyph of Immolation trap, and the trap effect kept rolling 100% of the time with Explosive Shot and the new T.N.T.. That seems like it could be a major DPS boost.
I was also wondering about the ICD on LnL, and if we can achieve strings of free ES from procs from both Black Arrow and Immo Trap ... will the new opening to the SV rotation go something like BA/ES/AimS/Immo/Serp/ES/Steady?
Seeing as only one new GCD will be introduced into the SV's priority rotation AFTER the initial round of shots, I think it may be close as to whether NS will still be worth the investment of points. The 30 second CD on BA ensures that we will still be using steady shot to somewhat the same degree (its introduction into the rotation just being delayed by 2 GCD's) and the added bonus of 9 percent damage increase during those (albeit short) periods when BA and SS are both afflicting the target should be nice. My guess is it still may have a place in a rotation, but enhancing it via a glyph may not be the best choice.
Yes, it does look like Serpent Sting is becoming so much less useful (no LnL procs, better filler talents than Noxious Stings, etc) that it won't be optimal to even use in a rotation, much less use the two glyphs devoted to it. Thankfully, Black Arrow seems like a viable alternative.
I think I'll wait for some PTR testing and maybe a new spreadsheet version to see the damage differences between Black Arrow and Immolation Trap and even using both since they shouldn't share a cooldown.
I really wonder how the new trap launcher ability (or talent?) will work. If you read the description closely, it says:
New Talent: Trap Launcher: When activated, your next Trap will be launched instantly at the enemy target. 1 minute cooldown.
This could mean you need to activate trap launcher first, and when you use a trap, it would launch the trap to the boss. Now this would actually be something nice, but only if you don't get double global cooldown on using the 2 abilities.
02/18/09, 9:56 PM
*hope*
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