Raiding as Beast Mastery in 3.1

Rosamonde · 04/06/09, 12:10 PM

Introduction
There have been a lot of changes to the Beast Mastery spec since 3.0 was first introduced, and more are upcoming in 3.1. Mattaos is busy with work and does not have the time at present to update his work, so we agreed that I would start a new thread so it could be kept up to date. The format and content of this thread owe a great deal to his Beast Mastery Bible 3.0; I have kept his original wording where appropriate. Thanks also to Nooska, TrevvyTrev, and the posters in this thread for their contributions.

For information on hunter basics and game mechanics, please see this excellent article in the Theorycrafting Think Tank on these forums:

Hunter: PvE DPS in WotLK by Garby

BM hunters were the top DPS spec for TBC using the "cookie cutter" build 41/20/0. With WotLK some new mechanics have been introduced that have altered the old school BM approach to raiding, i.e. unlinked Auto Shots, new pet talent trees, increased pet dps and our 51 point talent giving access to exotic pets.

Even more changes came with 3.0.8 (the "nerf" patch) and 3.0.9 (where part of the nerf to pets was reversed). These changes brought a welcome complexity to the shot rotation, as well as reducing the damage done by the cat and scorpid specials, which were seen as overpowered. This, in concert with improvements to talents in the Survival tree, led to Survival becoming the spec favored by the masses -- and to a virtual halt in the discussion around how to optimize Beast Mastery in a raid setting.

3.1 is introducing new pet talents which can only be fully accessed by taking Beast Mastery, the 51 point talent in the BM tree. Depending on in what form the new pet talents -- Wild Hunt and Shark Attack -- emerge from the PTR, BM hunters should see a nice increase in their dps. I know there are still hunters out there who prefer to raid as BM or who may want to use BM as a secondary spec in 3.1, and it is my hope that we can pool our collective knowledge and experience to make the most of this spec.

Raiding as Beast Master in 3.1

This thread will be reserved for topical discussions for the Beast Mastery raiding hunter...

* Raiding spec
* Major/minor glyphs
* Shot priorities
* Pet talents
* Top dps pets
* Talent reviews
* Theorycrafting

Useful Tools:
WoWHead Talent Calculator
WoWHead Pet Talent Calculator
3.1 PTR WoWHead Pet Talent Calculator
WotLK DPS Spreadsheet by Shandara
WotLK Gem Index for Hunters by Faerdael

How to effectively use this thread...

The development of this thread will be ongoing. It should should be reserved for Q&A based on known (or upcoming) data regarding the BM spec, or to discuss theroycrafted data about talents, spec or shot rotations. If there is information available on a certain topic the best way to locate it is by using the "Search this thread" tool at the top of every forum. Use it or take the time to read through the entire thread before asking questions that have already been covered multiple times.

Download and use the Hunter Spreadsheet. The spreadsheet can help to answer questions you may have about your gear choices, shot rotations, spec decisions, etc, before you even have the chance to post a redundant question on the forums. There is a link provided above to download the spreadsheet and an entire thread dedicated to its development. Use the tools available to the hunter community before asking the community to hold your hand to teach you how to play your hunter.

As concrete information is decided by the hunter community on standard practices for the Beast mastery spec (i.e. specs, pets, talents, macros, etc), I will update these pages for quick reference.

Raiding Specs [updated 4.28.2009]

53/11/7
Some version of this build will likely be the choice of most BM hunters.

Hunter self-preservation floater -- 1 point
One point in the lower part of the BM tree can be devoted to slightly improving your chance of surviving if things go wrong:
1/2 Endurance Training -- increase your and your pet's health
1/3 Imp Aspect of the Monkey -- increase your dodge; useful for kiting or when a mob comes for you

Pet health floaters -- 4 points
There are 4 points in the lower part of the BM tree to devote to your choice of pet health-related talents that can be used in the following ways:
2/2 Imp Revive Pet -- highly recommended
2/2 Spirit Bond -- recommended
2/2 Imp Mend Pet -- use if your pet is not being cleansed or healed by the raid healers and is dying frequently
1/2 Spirit Bond + 1/2 Imp Mend Pet -- if you just can't decide
2/5 Endurance Training -- useful for solo; not recommended for raiding
2/5 Thick Hide -- useful for solo; not recommended for raiding

Hunter DPS floaters -- 2 points
There are 2 "extra" points in the MM or SV trees to use in damage talents. Use the spreadsheet to determine where these points will work best for your current gear set-up; results can vary as your attack power and crit increase:
2/2 Survival Instincts -- reduces damage taken in addition to increasing crit for Arcane and Steady Shot
4/5 Mortal Shots (2/5 MS is required to take Go for the Throat) -- further increase crit bonus on all shots
2/3 Imp Arcane Shot -- increase damage done by Arcane Shot
2/2 Go for the Throat + 1 point in any of the above (1/2 GftT is a "must have") -- take the second point in GftT if your unbuffed crit is below 25% or if you find your pet is focus-starved at lower gear levels; with changes in pet focus regen in 3.1, testing is needed to establish a minimum crit level for taking 1/2 GftT
2/2 Invigoration or 1/2 Invigoration + 1 point in any of the above -- if you find yourself spending a lot of time in Viper

Focused Aim
Formerly a huge damage loss for BM hunters as the hit gained was not transmitted to the pet, in 3.1 FA will affect the pet, making this a viable source of hit for new raiders lacking hit on their gear; try to get the needed hit (263 hit rating; 8% hit) from your gear as soon as possible and move these points into other talents.

[Other raid damage-focused builds with rationale are welcome and will be added if they emerge!]

Glyphs

The following glyphs are not reserved for the BM spec, but tend to provide excellent synergy for the spec. The first two are highly recommended by many hunters in 3.0; the jury is still out on which of the others to choose for the third glyph in 3.1 -- try them in the spreadsheet to see what works for you.

Major: [updated 4.16.2009]
[Glyph of Bestial Wrath] -- highly recommended
[Glyph of Steady Shot] -- highly recommended
[Glyph of the Hawk] -- recommended; analysis shows this should scale better with gear upgrades than Glyph of Serpent Sting
[Glyph of Serpent Sting] -- recommended
[Glyph of Kill Shot] -- new in 3.1; will be expensive until a number of Scribes on your server discover it; needs testing
[Glyph of the Beast] -- situational; not recommended for raiding

Minor: [updated 4.7.2009]
[Glyph of Mend Pet] --allows the pet to gain happiness in combat -- recommended (NOTE: This glyph is bugged in 3.0 and does not work if you have taken Imp Mend Pet. It remains to be seen if this will be fixed in 3.1)
[Glyph of Feign Death] -- allows more frequent aggro dumps -- aggro is usually not a huge issue for BM hunters, but it's better than nothing
[Glyph of Revive Pet] -- allows a faster pet rez during pushback spells -- not extremely useful but better than nothing
[Glyph of Possessed Strength] -- recent testing shows that this glyph would not perform well in a raid setting; not recommended

Shot priority
[credit to Nooska]

Kill Shot
Arcane Shot
Multi-shot/Aimed Shot (optional)
Serpent Sting
Steady Shot

This priority is suggested by the true damage values of each shot; since we as Beastmasters are only limited by the GCD, always use the highest damage shot available.
Refresh SrS before its final tick if it will drop off before your steady lands, but not if Kill Shot or Arcane Shot are available.
Do not refresh SrS if the boss's Time To Live is very low -- you will lose more damage by using the GCD on SrS than you would by losing the bonus on Steady Shots from [Glyph of Steady Shot].
Leave Multi-Shot out of the rotation if mana is becoming an issue.

[If anyone has created a viable spec including Aimed Shot, I would be interested to see it!]

Cooldowns

Bestial Wrath should be used as often as it's ready, in conjunction with Kill Command and pet specials with a long cooldown (eg Savage Rend or Serenity Dust). Save Call of the Wild and your "on use" trinkets for the next BW whenever they are ready. Bestial Wrath should also be used with Heroism/Bloodlust whenever possible; usually this will be near the beginning of the fight if your shamans are on the ball. Some bosses will call for burst damage later in the fight and Heroism may well be saved until then; if you know Heroism is coming when the boss is at 35% or whatever, try to save that third BW for it.

If you get Heroism/Bloodlust during your first BW, you can use Rapid Fire during the second one. [Potion of Speed] is nice for the third one if you didn't need a health or mana potion.

The following "Enrage" macro is useful; use it whenever Bestial Wrath is cooled down:

#showtooltip Bestial Wrath
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Kill Command
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Call of the Wild
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] <other pet special>
/use 13
/use 14
/cast Bestial Wrath

Aspects

Spreadsheet modeling has shown that talented, glyphed Aspect of the Dragonhawk will give the best damage. Use Aspect of the Viper only when necessary to regain mana, and spend as little time in it as possible; if the fight is more than half over there is no need to remain in Viper until your mana bar is refilled -- just regain enough mana to finish the fight. Under certain circumstances Aspect of the Beast may be more effective, eg if you are kiting adds while your pet attacks the boss.

Raiding Pets

It is assumed that a raiding hunter will use a Ferocity pet for maximum raid damage, although there has been some experimentation with Cunning pets for specific circumstances. With the equalization of pets in 3.1 (Cunning, Ferocity and Tenacity pets now all have +5% damage, +5% armor and +5% health bonuses), other types of pets may become viable although spreadsheet modeling to date (v.86c) shows Cunning and Tenacity pets well below Ferocity in damage output.

Non-exotics: [updated 4.9.2009]
Wolves --PTR testing and modeling are showing wolves to be an excellent choice for raiding in 3.1 due to the changes in Furious Howl (now affects only hunter and pet, and therefore will stack for you with other AP-enhancing raid buffs); very close to devilsaur in combined hunter/pet damage
Raptors -- look good in the spread sheet due to assumption that Savage Rend damage will occur under ideal circumstances (ie after a crit) and the damage being averaged out over the fight; streaky damage that may or may not come through when you need it
Moths -- intriguing percent-based special that may scale well at very high gear levels; disappointingly, modeling with v.86d shows the moth will not out-scale the wolf until the hunter has in excess of 20K AP
Cats -- always a solid choice in 3.0 when there is a Feral Druid in the raid keeping up Mangle; not likely to be competitive in 3.1
Scorpids (Tenacity) -- the darling of 3.0 raiding prior to 3.0.8, scorpids' poison debuff no longer stacks; like any Tenacity pet, scorpids have sub-par damage for raiding; not recommended

Exotics
Devilsaurs -- highest damage but many issues related to its large size and hit-box; workable if you can manage the hit-box and your raid will tolerate the stamping and having their view blocked
Spirit beasts -- reported to do better damage than in 3.0 in the PTR with changes in the way spell hit is calculated, though not as much as a wolf or a devilsaur; only one spirit beast currently exists in the game and a second one (Gondria) has been found on the PTR, so it will require great patience to tame
Core hounds -- similar damage to spirit beasts in the spreadsheet

Pet talents [updated 4.16.2009]
To raid as BM in 3.1 it is imperative to take the 51 point talent, Beast Mastery. Whether to use an exotic pet is the individual hunter's choice, but the additional 4 pet talent points will be essential to get all the damage-enhancing pet talents, including the new Wild Hunt and Shark Attack. You will want a Ferocity pet.

DPS pet spec 1
My personal choice of talents includes Dash for movement speed and 2/2 Bloodthirsty for survivability/happiness.

DPS pet spec 2
Alternative spec favored by Har takes Charge for movement speed, 1/3 Great Stamina for survivability, and has one extra point that should be spent in Bloodthirsty.

Pet stats
Hunter pets "inherit" the following stats from their owners:
Hit (100%) -- note that hit from Focused Aim will transfer to pets in 3.1
Ranged Attack Power (22%) -- the new 3.1 pet talent Wild Hunt will increase this by 20%
Stamina (30%)
Armor (35%)
Magic resistances (40%) -- race-based magic school resistances are percent based and do not appear on the character sheet and thus presumably do not transfer to the pet

Pets inherit Agility (and Intellect if you have 3/3 Careful Aim) only indirectly, as it raises the hunter's Attack Power.

Pets do not inherit Strength, Spirit, Crit, Haste, Resilience, or Armor Pen.

Pets do not inherit the XP bonus found on heirloom shoulders.

NOTE: Hit is transferred to pets as an integer, not including any fractions (for example, 7.99% transfers as 7%, while 8.03% transfers as 8%), therefore it is important to be fully hit-capped.

Esoth · 04/06/09, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rosamonde

For information on hunter basics and game mechanics, please see these excellent articles in the Theorycrafting Think Tank on these forums:

Hunter: PvE DPS in WotLK by Garby
Ranged Combat Mechanics by Lactose

It looks like Lactose's post hasn't been updated for the two roll system or even the unlinking of auto and special shots; or updated at all since September 2007. It's probably not a good reference to link to at the moment.

Kinetics · 04/06/09, 12:44 PM

Has there been any confirmation as to what the new IMP IAoTH buff will be? I haven't checked the test notes in a few days, but I was just wondering if there was anything new on the Live PTR as far as the spell buff goes?

Rosamonde · 04/06/09, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Esoth

It looks like Lactose's post hasn't been updated for the two roll system or even the unlinking of auto and special shots; or updated at all since September 2007. It's probably not a good reference to link to at the moment.

Ah, is it that out of date then? I thought the base information was still good or it would have been removed from the TTT. I'll take it out.

Nooska · 04/06/09, 1:02 PM

Since I am not on the ptr I will not speculate on specs, talent reviews, pet dps rankings or general theorycrafting - yet.

Shot rotation
First off I would suggest we call it "Shot Priority" instead of a rotation, even though we could concievably create a rotation since we don't have any proc related shots.

I believe (since I have seen no changes) that our current priority still holds in 3.1;

Kill Shot
Arcane Shot
Serpent Sting
Steady Shot

Fitting in aimed above serpent, if for some reason you have aimed in your spec.
You want to refresh serpent before its final tick if it will drop off before your steady lands, but you do not want to push killshots or arcane shots for this.
You will want to not refresh serpent if the Time To Live means it will get less damage in than losing the bonus on steady shots from [Glyph of Steady Shot].
This priority is suggested by the true damage values of each shot, since we as beastmasters are only limited by the GCD, always use the highest damage shot available.

Major / Minor Glyphs

Current wisdom suggests that the following glyphs are the greatest dps increase:

Major:
1. [Glyph of Bestial Wrath]
2. [Glyph of Steady Shot]
3. []
4. []

Of these 4 we need to pick 3;
The easiest choice is the steady shot glyph; Steady shot is the shot we cast the most, and we want to keep serpent sting on the target anyway as SrS is more damage for the GCD than steady shot as long as TTL is long enough.
Second choice would be Bestial Wrath, as this gives us a Cooldown reduction of ~20% after talents (3/3 Longevity) for a final cooldown of 72 seconds.
Third choice is a matter of taste - and checking your spreadsheet. For me I consistently get more dps from being in aspect of the beast, so that glyph is potential dps increase without question. The crossover point between theese 2 glyphs, Serpent Sting and Aspect of the Beast is fluid.
Serpent Sting glyph is a not a dps increase directly, but it frees up 2 GCD's every 105 seconds (7 unglyphed serpents versus 5 glyphed), so it carries a de facto dps increase of 2 steadies in that time. If your 2 steadies do more damage than the 2% extra AP for your pet in that time, Serpent Sting glyph is the greater raw increase, if not, AotB is the greater dps increase. (Provided you use AotB, of course).
As Pet AP scales at 22% and Steady shot only scales at 10% of our AP, the more AP the more AotB glyph will generally increase your dps over Serpent Sting glyph.
When you do the math for yourself (or just use the spreadsheet) remember to factor in that you gain 1 Bestial Wrath with 50% increased damage by your pet in the 105 second period to free up 2 GCD's for steadies.

Minor Glyphs
Here we have the smae choices as other hunters, and they are generally not that good.
We have 6 glyphs to choose from:
1. []
2. []
3. []
4. []
5. []
6. []

As none of these provide an immediate dps increase we will start by doing a game of elimination.
Glyph of the Pack- no worth in a raid environment except perhaps for recovery. With 3.1. Aspect of thePack goes raidwide and this glyph could be a help recovering, just becareful around environmental hazards like frogger after patch.
Glyph of Scare Beast - I have yet to encounter a raid situation where a hunter is expected to crowd control beasts by keeping them feared. This is a pvp/solo oriented glyph, lets move on.
Glyph of Mend Pet This glyph is good for keeping our pets happy, unfortunately it is currently (live) broken so it doesn't work if you have any points in improved mend pet. I have yet to see how well this works in the new form (compared to the old that applied happiness once, on cast). Since we are raiding we should have ferocity pets that hav blood thirsty, happiness is not a problem without this glyph in my experience (anectodal evidence, I know). This glyph is by far better than the previous 2.
Glyph of Revive Pet This is almost a musthave. Our pets eventually die, and the less time spent ressurecting them, the less dps we lose. Talented and glyphed it takes 3.2 seconds to revive our pets, thats 2 gcd worth of specials and some autoshots. it is always better to revive our pets, and avoiding pusback by 100% is great.
Glyph of Feign Death reduction of 5 seconds to the Feign Death Spell. Its in the "nice to have" category - both to dump aggro, but also to survive a wipe and save some gold / recovery time.
Last but not least we come to the Glyph of Possesed Strength. I have no direct experience with this glyph, but I am definately considering playing around with it. It has the potential to increase our pets dps massively if used at the correct times (like during Bestial Wrath). I need to do some math (if someone hasn't done it already) to check how many specials I can loose before this becomes a loss - I assume autoshot keeps firing but, as I said, I have no direct experience with this glyph, and its been ages since I used Eyes of the Beast.

--

Here ends my first contribution to the thread.

Rosamonde · 04/06/09, 1:30 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

Last but not least we come to the Glyph of Possesed Strength. I have no direct experience with this glyph, but I am definately considering playing around with it. It has the potential to increase our pets dps massively if used at the correct times (like during Bestial Wrath). I need to do some math (if someone hasn't done it already) to check how many specials I can loose before this becomes a loss - I assume autoshot keeps firing but, as I said, I have no direct experience with this glyph, and its been ages since I used Eyes of the Beast.

This is an interesting idea. I have used Eyes of the Beast mainly as a way to fool around while waiting for the raid to start, but since the hunter remains in a "casting pose" while channeling it, I do not see how auto-shot could continue firing. Still, if the pet does enough damage during this time it could very well make up for the loss of hunter damage.

Nooska · 04/06/09, 2:04 PM

Since I have the luxury of being an officer, I will allow myself to fool around next raid. I am on a break to clean the house this week though, so it will be a little while.

I guess the damage really depends on if its additive or multiplicative with Bestial wrath;

Napkin math:
Assumptions, my pet does 50% of my total damage

During EotB I lose 50% of my damage (all my own contribution)
I use EotB during Bestial Wrath.

My pet gains 50% damage done from BW and 50% from Possed Strength;
If this is additive my pet does 200% damage during the BW
If it is multiplicative my pet does 225% damage during BW.
My pet does 50% total damage, so this is 100% respectively 112.5% damage compared to non BW phases

This assumes Autoshot doesn't fire (which it likely wont, you are correct, I forgot the channelling)

Being BM, if I do this during a Bloodlust I will gain even more relative dps purely from the perspective that my pet benefits more from BL than I do as I am already at steady cap from talents alone.

This definately warrants testing - next time I log on I will aquire one of these glyphs and try it on a dummy - my biggest worry is focus during the EotB phase, as I am not shooting I am not critting, thus reducing focus income.

TrevvyTrev · 04/06/09, 2:12 PM

I've run various permutations in the spreadsheet (v86c) and in every one [] (renamed to Glyph of the Hawk in 3.1) beats Glyph of Aspect of the Beast. While Steady Shot is the shot we cast the most, the one we actually fire the most is Auto Shot, and it actually does the most damage overall also. I'm not sure that "current wisdom" even suggests Beast as the#3 glyph, but if it does it probably isn't right, or at least Hawk needs to be up there with it. Hawk also consistently outperforms Serpent glyph in experience with the spreadsheet, but the two are close enough to where I can't say that would be the case for everyone. Maybe if I had more raw AP and less ArP/haste it would be different with respect to the Serpent glyph, but by the same token Serpent Sting is one of the shots that people are more likely to adjust in practical situations -- evaluating time to live, letting it fall off, refreshing too early, etc., while Auto Shot is more consistent if nothing else.

But I'm skeptical that the AotB glyph will ever eclipse Hawk for most people. It has too many things working against it. Time spent in Beast is time where you get zero Quickshots procs, and more Auto Shots doesn't just mean more autoshot damage, but more procs from per-hit mechanics. The loss of 390 RAP is not just a blow to the hunter, but to the pet (from lost scaling), which needs to be subtracted from the 2% AP benefit to the pet. That 390 RAP also isn't getting the benefit of Improved Tracking, which benefits hunter damage only, nor can it work in conjunction with other stats that don't scale to the pet, like ArP and haste. And just to be clear, I ran the calculations with Beast on all the time, by switching to Beast during BW, and without using Beast at all (for a control). Each calculation assumed full raid buffs.

Originally Posted by Nooska

As Pet AP scales at 22% and Steady shot only scales at 10% of our AP, the more AP the more AotB glyph will generally increase your dps over Serpent Sting glyph.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by mentioning steady shot scaling if you're comparing the serpent sting glyph. In any event, Steady Shot (and auto shot, thus also Hawk glyph) also scale with weapon damage and ammo, and the other hunter gear stats that don't directly transfer to the pet (ArP/haste/crit). As you gear up, you don't just gain more RAP, you gain those other stats and new weapons too.

EDIT: I can see now that Nooska doesn't have Imp. Hawk in his build at all, which explains why the Hawk Glyph wouldn't outperform the others. If we're going with current wisdom though, I am not sure that is the highest dps choice. Haste is maligned and all, but autoshot is a lot more damage than people give it credit for.

Kinetics · 04/06/09, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

My pet gains 50% damage done from BW and 50% from Possed Strength;
If this is additive my pet does 200% damage during the BW
If it is multiplicative my pet does 225% damage during BW.
My pet does 50% total damage, so this is 100% respectively 112.5% damage compared to non BW phases

Overall then you'd have to take in the consideration that this would be highly beneficial if timed right. More than likely the pet's DPS will shoot up drastically at the cost of a few steady shots, SrS, and Arcanes (which can be easily sacrificed). Although I think it will be a little sketchy once 3.1 comes out due to most people, unless they've read up on the fights, knowing when to use BW/EotB on certain bosses.

I'll definitely try raiding this week and see how EotB turns out on some bosses.

On a side note though, there is a downfall to using EotB. The only thing I can think of is trinkets not being able to proc seeing that autoshots aren't going off, so this might pose as a problem. For example using Grim Toll/Mirror of Truth, I'm losing about 80 DPS per trinket when not being able to proc. So you might have to throw trinkets and other factors into the equation. Also you won't be able to get the slight benefit from IAoTH and GftT, so there you'd lose DPS also. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it was just a brief observation on my part.

Bengomore · 04/06/09, 2:18 PM

So unless I am totally mistaken, I do not see any pet talent builds linked thus far in the thread.

Using the 53/11/7 build that was linked I consistently got the highest results with several different pets from a Pet Calculator - Wowhead build, which suprised me, I was expecting to put 1/2 in Wild Hunt and 2/2 in Shark Attack.
I also would really prefer to take Boar's Speed over Dash, but as all the points after the first tier are strict DPS points I simlply cannot afford to do it.
What do you guys think of dropping HotP and getting 2/2 Shark Attack, I suppose with the glyph and the talents revive pet is pretty powerful, but I really liked HotP when I was BM and I feel that the build I linked is a good compromise between functionality and pure DPS.

I'm not sure how well the spreadsheet models comparison between different pets but I showed that Spirit Beast beat Cat by about 50 DPS, and Devilsaur beat Spirit Beast by about 100 DPS, I will be doing testing of this myself later.

I will be using my Spirit Beast, as I have thus far not read anything about the Devilsaur hitbox issues being fixed. On top of that I had issues with Devilsaurs not only from the constant re-positioning that they did, but from standing too far away from the boss and invariably standing in something that would kill them.

Kinetics · 04/06/09, 2:25 PM

Originally Posted by Bengomore

So unless I am totally mistaken, I do not see any pet talent builds linked thus far in the thread.

Using the 53/11/7 build that was linked I consistently got the highest results with several different pets from a Pet Calculator - Wowhead build, which suprised me, I was expecting to put 1/2 in Wild Hunt and 2/2 in Shark Attack.
I also would really prefer to take Boar's Speed over Dash, but as all the points after the first tier are strict DPS points I simlply cannot afford to do it.
What do you guys think of dropping HotP and getting 2/2 Shark Attack, I suppose with the glyph and the talents revive pet is pretty powerful, but I really liked HotP when I was BM and I feel that the build I linked is a good compromise between functionality and pure DPS.

Why couldn't you drop the HotP talent and put it into Shark Attack? That way you wouldn't sacrifice any DPS, but instead you'd gain. HotP, was bugged for the majority after it was first released, I actually never even bothered to get it nor do I intend to after 3.1 comes out. HotP isn't necessarily needed IMO unless you have trouble keeping your pet alive. If you do happen to keep the point though, you'll be losing that 3% damage for your pet, so keep that in mind because BM hunters rely on the pets more than the hunter itself.

TrevvyTrev · 04/06/09, 2:35 PM

Originally Posted by hellusion

If you do happen to keep the point though, you'll be losing that 3% damage for your pet, so keep that in mind because BM hunters rely on the pets more than the hunter itself.

No, they do not, except at comparatively low (that's code for horrible) gear and skill levels.

Bengomore · 04/06/09, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bengomore

What do you guys think of dropping HotP and getting 2/2 Shark Attack, I suppose with the glyph and the talents revive pet is pretty powerful, but I really liked HotP when I was BM and I feel that the build I linked is a good compromise between functionality and pure DPS.

Originally Posted by hellusion

Why couldn't you drop the HotP talent and put it into Shark Attack? That way you wouldn't sacrifice any DPS, but instead you'd gain. HotP, was bugged for the majority after it was first released, I actually never even bothered to get it nor do I intend to after 3.1 comes out. HotP isn't necessarily needed IMO unless you have trouble keeping your pet alive. If you do happen to keep the point though, you'll be losing that 3% damage for your pet, so keep that in mind because BM hunters rely on the pets more than the hunter itself.

Right, so the question really is about the worth of HotP versus getting straight DPS points. HotP being bugged is a invalid point, simply make a macro for it and it will work just fine, I also seem to remember Blizz saying that they never really intended for it to be auto-castable.

Now, as I said the build I linked was IMO a good compromise between functionality and pure DPS, as every good raider knows a dead raider who does 8k DPS is worth less than a raider who does 4K DPS and survives the encounter. Certainly you are right, dropping HotP and getting 2/2 Shark Attack would be higher DPS build, however I was curious what others felt about the worth of that extra 3% damage versus the added saftey/functionality of HotP. Another reason I felt that HotP is better is that as we learn Ulduar and get geared up healers may be struggling to keep the raid alive and not quite have time for extra pet attention.

*This all may be a moot discussion as I am planning on having BM be my secondary spec and only using it for extrememly melee/pet friendly fights and going Surv for the rest. In which case it would definatley be a pure DPS pet build. And I would venture a guess that the majority of hunters are doing the same thing.

Rosamonde · 04/06/09, 3:25 PM

I do not currently use Heart of the Phoenix at all since I will not have Beast Mastery the Talent until 3.1 goes live. I had HotP at first, but found I really didn't miss it when I specced out of the 51 point talent. There are very few fights in 3.0 where losing the pet is a problem. I agree that it might be worthwhile for learning Ulduar fights until we know them well enough to keep our pets alive consistently -- I haven't really decided on that yet.

PS I hadn't added any specific pet specs to the first post because the way the new talents work seem to be changed fairly often; I was waiting for 3.1 to go live so we would have something more concrete to work with. I think discussion of it is useful though.

Nooska · 04/06/09, 4:30 PM

@ TrevvyTrev

No I don't have IAotH in my build. Seeing as AotB outperforms AotH even if I switch the talent points I don't see it as useful talentpoints at all. I like my autoshot and I usually pop rapidfire with bloodlust and BW to squeeze out as many autoshots during the increase of BW for this reason (this might change with the Possed strength glyph if it indeed is as powerful (though situational) as my napkin math suggests).
So I've opted for more survivabilty which was good in the early stages - I have considered speccing out of it, but IAotH just doesn't seem to be worth it despite great autoshots - I haven't trie d a spreadsheet with the glyph though (that could definately make it worth more).

Indeed lacking trinket procs might lower dps, but since you gain more from them than your pet (when ap, nothing for arp) I am not sure its correct that you would lose dps from them not proccing.

@ My ranking, it wasn't truly meant as a ranking, and I would agree that SrS glyph should be moved up, but my thoughts are that SrS/AotB is a matter of taste - provided AotB is being used (if not, SrS wins at any time since a 20% benefit to a 0 use talent is still 0

)

@ Steady Shot scaling in the pet scaling comment; This was a reference to the math of the previous statement. Assuming AotB is used (and is a dps increase over AotDh) the pet needs to do more dps than 2 steady shots over 105 seconds from the 2% increased scaling. With the pet scaling off 22% ap and steady shot only scaling of 10% the pet scales better and thus the AotB glyph - however I did forget that Steady shot also scales off weapon damage, and thus will get more scaling from getting a better ranged weapon than the pet will (as it only gets the increased ap) - I would speculate that gearing up 1 tier fully (naxx 25 -> Ulduar 25 for instance) the rest of the gear will benefit the pet more than steady shot.

--

Heart of the Phoenix.
My Core Hound has this - not that I actually use it - I Usually have to send my pet in again anyway, losing time so I might as well revive it (and I ofte use revive pet even if HotP is up because I use it so rarely I forget).
Come 3.1 I am speccing my pets out of it to pick up both of the new talents fully.

That being said; Shark attack versus Wild Hunt.

Each point in shark attack is worth 3% increase dps.
Each point in Wild hunt is 10% increase ap scaling (and survivability).

For Wild hunt to be worth more than shark attack, 2,2% of your AP must create more increased damage output from your pet than 3%. I have a very hard time seeing that to be the case (I know someone will do the math of the crossover point, and I usually get sidetracked when trying), thus I would conclude (proovided my speculation is correct) that 2/2 shark attack is the first priority.
Personally I will go for 2/2 of each, as thats even better.

TrevvyTrev · 04/06/09, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

@ TrevvyTrev

No I don't have IAotH in my build. Seeing as AotB outperforms AotH even if I switch the talent points I don't see it as useful talentpoints at all. I like my autoshot and I usually pop rapidfire with bloodlust and BW to squeeze out as many autoshots during the increase of BW for this reason (this might change with the Possed strength glyph if it indeed is as powerful (though situational) as my napkin math suggests).
So I've opted for more survivabilty which was good in the early stages - I have considered speccing out of it, but IAotH just doesn't seem to be worth it despite great autoshots - I haven't trie d a spreadsheet with the glyph though (that could definately make it worth more).

Indeed lacking trinket procs might lower dps, but since you gain more from them than your pet (when ap, nothing for arp) I am not sure its correct that you would lose dps from them not proccing.

@ My ranking, it wasn't truly meant as a ranking, and I would agree that SrS glyph should be moved up, but my thoughts are that SrS/AotB is a matter of taste - provided AotB is being used (if not, SrS wins at any time since a 20% benefit to a 0 use talent is still 0

)

You might want to double check your spreadsheet calculations. I loaded your gear (assumed Mammoth Cutters) and spec (57/14, no IAotH) into v86c, and used a Core Hound with the new "dps spec" (no HotP, 2/2 Wild hunt and Shark attack). I entered the shot priority you specified (Kill/Arc/Serp/Steady) except preceded by BW/Rapid Fire. I switched glyphs around and got the following results with level 80 raid buffs:

5793.73 dps in Dragonhawk, with Steady/BW/Serp glyphs
5832.05 dps in Beast, with Steady/BW/Serp glyphs
5837.82 dps in Beast, with Steady/BW/AotB glyphs

So far that is consistent with what you said earlier. Then I switched Endurance Training for IAotH:

5869.15 dps in Dragonhawk, with Steady/BW/AotB glyphs. This is higher dps even though now we're getting nothing from the AotB glyph.
5908.84 dps in Dragonhawk, with Steady/BW/Serp glyphs.
5920.23 dps in Dragonhawk, with Steady/BW/Hawk glyphs. So under the latest spreadsheet, even you get the most dps by using IAotH and glyphing for it.

This trend continues even if you use the 53/11/7 build with your gear. DPS goes up in all cases, but the highest still is with the BW/Steady/Hawk glyphs, which tops out at 6069.66. The dps for all of these could go up with multi-shot in your rotations, but I didn't check that.

As for my proc point, that wasn't about trinkets specifically, but anything that uses a per-hit mechanic instead of PPM, like Go For the Throat and well, IAotH. The latter has a flat chance to trigger from any auto shot, so quick shots has the added effect of increasing the chance that it will refresh itself.

Finally, my point about your ranking wasn't about the order, so much as you said that "current wisdom" suggests that those four glyphs are the highest dps, yet you left off a glyph (Hawk) that according to current wisdom does more dps than half the ones you listed. So either the list needed five entries, or if you specifically only wanted to list the 'top four' then Beast needs to be replaced with Hawk. EDIT: Actually I even show the Kill Shot Glyph as ahead of the Beast Glyph when I plug it in under the conditions above. So you'd need six entries if you want to include the Beast glyph.

Rosamonde · 04/06/09, 8:48 PM

Spreadsheet modeling of pets using v86c:

Using my own current gear and planned 3.1 spec, I compared the various Ferocity pets. I used a total of hunter/pet dps since some of the pets affect the hunter's dps as well. Most of them did in the neighborhood of 2600-2900 dps themselves..

6145 Devilsaur
6129 Wolf
6119 Raptor
6019 Core hound
6016 Spirit Beast
6012 Moth
5984 Wasp
5962 Cat
5931 Silithid
5918 Carrion Bird
5887 Tallstrider
5847 Hyena

Cunning pets are in the 2200-2300 dps range, so they aren't likely to find their way into a raid unless one of their talents is needed in special circumstances. Tenacity pets are in the 2100-2200 dps range, except for worms which are around 2500 dps.

Kinetics · 04/07/09, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Rosamonde

Spreadsheet modeling of pets using v86e:

Using my own current gear and planned 3.1 spec, I compared the various Ferocity pets. I used a total of hunter/pet dps since some of the pets affect the hunter's dps as well. Most of them did in the neighborhood of 2600-2900 dps themselves..

6145 Devilsaur

I still honestly think Devilsaur will pull more than that in 3.1 especially if they fix the hitbox. Although I'm currently maxed for hit and my pet still manages to miss. It only happens with my Devilsaur which is quite depressing because I know he can easily pull more DPS if he wasn't missing.

Bengomore · 04/07/09, 2:30 AM

@Hellusion
Yes, Devilsaur is an attractive choice if they fix ALL the hitbox issues. That being said, as I said earlier, I have not heard that they worked on that at all. Can anyone give testament to whether Devilsaurs are still seriously bugged on the PTR? Again, I think that this discussion will best be serviced by simply going into a raid and observing, post 3.1.

@Rosamonde
I'm very suprised that the wolf was second to the Devilsaur. I was anticipating the wolf being a lot lower on that ranking with the changes to furious howl. I wonder if the spreadsheet hasn't been updated quite accurately to reflect those changes. Also as a buffing class of a pet, it is supposed to do less damage than a pet who doesn't buff, but I suppose the spreadsheet is telling you that with your gear and spec the AP is providing a greater benefeit to your overall DPS than a pet that does more damage.

dssurge · 04/07/09, 3:31 AM

The Wolf also receives FH, which is why it does comparable damage.

It's actually kind of silly that exotic pets are below any non-exotics, but that said, as long as any non-exotic pet is a viable choice, this will remain a viable secondary (or primary) spec if/until the remove the obnoxious CD from the new Call Stabled Pet spell.

Rosamonde · 04/07/09, 3:54 AM

When I saw the changes to Furious Howl, I expected the wolf to be a good pet, at least until we get a lot of T8 gear -- the changes buffed its damage considerably as it was intended to do. It would have been a good pet before if the buff stacked with other raid buffs, which it does now, plus it was increased since it doesn't affect anyone besides the hunter and wolf. I am not sure why you are surprised that the changes will make it better than it is now -- unless I am misunderstanding your comments.

The wolf itself does not do more damage than the devilsaur, but including the buff to the hunter it is an overall increase over other pets and a close second to the devilsaur. I suppose it is true that the hunter's own stats have an effect on how good a wolf looks, in the sense that because it is a flat AP increase rather than a percent, having relatively low AP means that the wolf's buff represents a larger percent increase in AP than it would for someone with higher AP. I do think a moth will look better at (much) higher AP levels because of its percent-based buff (to itself only). All I can advise is to try it yourself in the spreadsheet and see how it works for you.

As to whether the spreadsheet models wolves correctly, I am afraid I do not have the know-how to check on it, but you could make a post in the spreadsheet thread if you truly think that is the case.

daragh · 04/07/09, 6:22 AM

It is a pity to see the spirit beast perform badly on the ptr tests... they might have fixed the spell issue bug but the miss% of the spirit beast is still high which in turn causes a drop in DPS. This pet was never meant to be THE DPS pet and thats normal cause I'd hate to see it become the new Humar. However it is an under performing exotic pet... tests run on the last PTR build 9757 showed a minor improvement on the DPS for the S-beast... I guess the wolf might be the sane option for everyone in the raid. (simply cause it does'nt get in the way like the devilsaur does)

Nooska · 04/07/09, 8:14 AM

I'm going to slowly kick myself for making 1 giant mistake.

I did not think about 2 important things; 1) I am using version 84 of the spreadsheet - which means I can't use it to predict how changes in 3.1. affect my choices. 2) I forgot glyph of Kill Shots existence - im not sure how this happened as I looked at wowhead's list of majors and minors respectively.

Anyway, you are completely correct about your points, and if I'm not mistaken that should even be an upgrade for me now (plugging it in, I'll just confirm that) - Aspect of the hawk + glyph is a ~200 dps upgrade with IAotH over endurance training - or ~5% for me personally.

This does confim my thoughts about serpent sting not being worth it for the few global cooldowns we win on it.

Regarding the trinket procs that was an issue with using EotB during BW with the possesed strength glyph, but it also does apply to the increased rate of autoshots.

--

Glyph of Mend Pet - has this been fixed to work with IMP yet (on the ptr)? if not we should add the caveat that it doesn't work with IMP (yet) and thus is "useless" if any points are put into IMP.

Later today (have a vets appointment shortly) I will play around with specs, I have some thoughts on synergy in a combinations that might be silly but work - will get back to that.

The poste spec puts the t2 floater point in Endurance Training - is there any reason that would make it more valuable there than Improved Aspect of the Monkey for instance? I am thinking the extra dodge is nice when we are kiting - without speccing directly for it.
My thoughts are along the line; that with multiple hunters BM hunters are the better choice for kiting as we only loose half our dps while kiting (being able to send out pet on the target) compared to.. well every ther kiting class that need to give up most of their dps. (SV hunters could possibly do okay damage from LnL procs off frost traps)

Nakaya_kilrogg · 04/07/09, 10:14 AM

On the PTR, how is BM compared to Survival damage for raids? I haven't gotten to see any WWS reports yet. I've really wanted to give BM a go again.

I really like the 53/11/7 build, but I'm unsure if I should go with 2/2 mend pet or 1/2 spirit bond, 1/2 mend pet. My healers rarely decurse pets, and they usually only get healed with a stray chain heal or CoH or somesuch. Anyone else run into this, and if so, what'd you decide?

Nooska · 04/07/09, 10:35 AM

As a raid officer myself I get very analretentive about our healers cleansing and healing hunter pets - as a consequence ours are getting very good at it (mostly).
I would suggest that you look into talking to your raid healer or dps officer (who should then talk to the healing officer) about it being a problem - espceially with beastmaster hunters. Of course they should not let a player character die to save a pet (because the pet has infinite combat resses available) but anything short of that is allowing a massive dps loss for the raid.

As a consequence I would suggest you go with 2/2 spirit bond. The 25% chance to cleanse means that you will, on average, wait 6 seconds for a cleanse to go through - most cleansable things are either deadly by then, or don't matter (when in a raid setting)