TrevvyTrev

Splitting Spirit Bond/Imp Mend can be fine but you just have to test it. I'm not sure I agree with 6 seconds being too long to wait for a decurse (particularly if the alternative is not getting one at all), and the tradeoff is that you're only losing 5% healing done to you and your pet plus 1% total health every 10 seconds. Maybe the 25% chance to cleanse won't make a difference in raid environments often but by the same token it's hard to say that 5% healing taken/1% health regen makes a big difference either. Sometimes hedging your bet is perfectly acceptable.

 

Brughe

I see this more as a gimmick. If it is a valid DPS boost, it will only be really effective during Patchwerk type fights. The problem will arise in any boss fight that requires you to "not stand in bad stuff." Which is a lot of them nowadays. Maybe there are less in Ulduar. I've been lax on reading up on those fights.

Basically, imagine never realizing the benefits of Glyph of Possessed Beast over Glyph of Aspect of the Hawk because every time you kick in Eyes of the Beast and TBW, you have to cancel it to move out of red fire/blue fire/blizzard/death rays/red doomfire/blue doomfire/falling rocks/random green crap/etc. Or worse, switching to EotB and getting tunnel vision while your Hunter is burnt to a crisp behind you.

Edit: Man, I need to update my avatar.

 

Rosamonde

I had always regarded Aspect of the Monkey as being so useless for raiding that I never even considered putting a point in it, but you make a good point -- we do end up kiting a lot due to the Gluth fight. Can players dodge when hit from the back? I know bosses can, but I have very little experience meleeing.

I'll add a note to the OP about the Glyph of Mend Pet bug.

Cave canum...

Florimel (hunter) / Argent Dawn
Rosamonde (mage) / Argent Dawn
Lisieau (priest) / Argent Dawn

 

Kinetics

In regards to whether EotB was worth it or not, I found it to be fairly useless. I did some testing on a Boss dummy yesterday in IF and my results were quite terrible. I would pop BW, and then cast Eotb for about 2 seconds, and proceed to DPS the dummy. You'd expect to get the 200% damage from Nooska's rough math yesterday, but in all actuality you do less than you'd think. I didn't have any strong figures to present due to the fact that they were embarassing. It was that bad. I'll continue to keep testing but I really think the EotB glyph is more "flare" than "fire."

 

TrevvyTrev

No, players can't dodge from the back, but you can get around this pretty easily with strafe techniques. I always put my floater in Improved Monkey for this reason, particularly once the bonus also applied to Dragonhawk. 1% more health isn't really noticeable in raid AoE situations, and in direct physical damage situations like kiting 2% dodge > 1% health.

 

Rosamonde

Trevvy and Nooska have convinced me that a point in Imp Aspect of the Monkey is superior to a point in Endurance, and I will change the OP accordingly.

Cave canum...

Florimel (hunter) / Argent Dawn
Rosamonde (mage) / Argent Dawn
Lisieau (priest) / Argent Dawn

 

Azaurosa

Is the BM spec going to be competitive against SV in 3.1? I do miss BM dearly and would love to switch back, but I also have this obsession with being in the top 5 in raid DPS.

 

Kinetics

I'd like to think it will be. Survival is getting some nerfs/buffs, but it all depends on what you mean by "competitive." If you mean in strict terms of DPS, then maybe because of BM's "new" buffs. For example the IAoTH buff, which still nobody knows what that will be. Shark Attack/Wild hunt will be a significant DPS increase. The pet DPS increases/hitbox hotfixes/Spirit Beast hit rating fixes. All of these things will come into play. I'd love to think it will keep up in DPS with a 3.1 Survival hunter, but I don't think it will become the "cookie cutter" tree like it used to be. We'll see though I guess.

 

Mattaos

I have never really understood these type of questions. There are no real concrete answers to this question yet until raids start fully dive into Uldar. I highly doubt we will ever see a huge disparity in DPS between the 3 specs like we saw in late TBC for BM. SV is currently the stronger of the 3 specs for raid DPS, but is taking some hits with 3.1 and BM is gaining some DPS power. Remember that that buff is to our pets mostly and will Uldar be as forgiving to our pets as Naxx?

I would love to see BM buffed to a point that it is a viable raiding spec for min/max'rs. Duel spec could allow the use of both SV and BM (or even MM) depending on the fight. I know that option would have been great during Sunwell, i.e. Felmyst.

In short, you will not find the answer you seek in this or any other threads yet. Wait another week or so for 3.1 to hit and we dive into Uldar reporting numbers supporting one spec vs. another. I believe you find that BM will be able to hold its own for the most part given the proper gear/enchant/gemming rolling the most DPS potential into the pet.

 

Azaurosa

I know it's still a little premature, but most people knew that after BM was nerfed that SV was going to be the best raiding spec. I just like to be prepared to make the necessary changes.

 

Kinetics

Well it just depends on the hunter's type of playstyle. I was BM from 1-80, went survival at 3.0.8 "To deal with the BM nerfs," and finally went back to BM a few days ago. Just because I'm not pulling 5k as BM in 25 mans doesn't mean I don't know how to play my toon. I'm perfectly fine with pulling 4k, knowing the raid will benefit from my FI. Hunter versatility I think is more key when you look at the construct of your raid. Survival is nothing but DPS, BM still has its uses IMO. Everyone is different, but most people assumed that the nerf was so hardcore to BM that nobody would ever go back. I feel proud to see a few die hard raiders still as BM, like Rosa and myself for example. Once 3.1 comes out I think the hunters will be a mix between all 3 trees for a change and there won't be one specific way to maximize DPS anymore.

Your answer is in there, just stare down the barrel.

 

Mattaos

This is a great point. I unfortunately need to remain high on DPS for the raids sake and my own obsessions. BM can still put up decent DPS numbers, but will not be top of the meters. The buffs coming in 3.1 will boost that DPS potential by quite a bit making a BM a viable DPS spec, but whether it can match/overtake SV is still yet to be seen.

A point to make based on a comment above that the community knew pretty quick that SV would be the new DPS spec after BM took hardcore nerfs in 3.0.8 was because the nerfs were severe enough to drop BM way down. The buff to ES was easy to calculate as a DPS boost since it was direct effect to the hunter, which will always attack during a fight. The buffs coming for BM are directly effecting the pet and whether the fights will be pet friendly is yet to be seen on live.

 

TrevvyTrev

In all fairness, SV brings replenishment, which is the only hunter raid buff that the developers specifically said they assume every raid will have. That's not to say they don't consider all raid buffs, but they assume that if you are doing things without replenishment then you are making things harder on yourself. There are other sources for it (as with FI) but that doesn't mean that it isn't considered important.

 

Kinetics

Regarding Replenishment.

It IS beneficial yes, but there are plenty of other classes that have mana regen for everyone else. Pallys, Shamans, and Shadow Priests. Even if you have 1 point in hunting party, it only goes to 10 raid members. For example a hunter with a base of 12,000 mana with the 1 point in hunting party. That is only 300 mana that is getting replenished periodically. Whereas other classes like Pallys, Shamans, and SPriests, I would consider to have a greater raid-wide mana replenishment. Most SV hunters have one of the cookie cutter 5/15/51 builds with no points in Hunting Party. Although it is a "semi raid-wide" buff, its not as important compared to some of the other classes. So I wouldn't consider it as a priority for having a hunter solely for this buff. SV hunters at the moment are there for their DPS, at least the way I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong also.

Your answer is in there, just stare down the barrel.

 

Steelfleece

It's been a while since I've been on the PTR, but from what I can remember, yes, it was fixed.

affect –verb (used with object) 1. to act on; produce an effect or change in
effect –noun 1. something that is produced by an agency or cause; result; consequence
Know the difference.

 

Rosamonde

I too would love to see one of each type of hunter in our raids, with all of them having a shot at top dps if geared and played correctly. My guild is not very hard-core, and I am in fact able to top the meter on most boss fights using my BM spec -- certainly in the top 5 and often number 1 unless it is a gimmick fight where the buff does not apply to my pet or I am kiting zombies for the umpteenth time. If I were to fall to the middle of the pack or become an outright liability in Ulduar, I would have to consider speccing SV if it emerges as a much higher damage spec in 3.1. As it is, I am able to indulge my personal preferences while still performing well.

Spreadsheet modeling with my own gear using the current version (86d, released today) shows SV to be about 250 dps higher than BM -- this without regemming for agility, so presumably the gap is a bit larger. Not a huge deficit by any means, and BM ought to be competitive in all but the most elite guilds. But we still need to see how it looks when 3.1 is live.

Cave canum...

Florimel (hunter) / Argent Dawn
Rosamonde (mage) / Argent Dawn
Lisieau (priest) / Argent Dawn

 

• Nagisamuro

The hunter's mana pool is irrelevent in valuating the replenishment he brings to the raid. Replenishment grants mana based on the mana pool of the person who is getting the buff, not giving the buff. So whether the Replenishment buff comes from a hunter, a ret pally, or a shadow priest the effect is the same - 10 people are getting mana back in amounts commensurate with their own mana pools.

Whether you should have it in your spec is entirely dependent on whether your raid needs another source of replenishment. If your regular raid group already has two or more replenishment providers, I could see not taking the talent.

Keep in mind that GC was talking about healer mana regen when he stated that they are balancing content on the assumption of replenishment. So it's not a question of

personal_dps_without_hunting_party <> raid_dps_with_replenishment

Rather, it's

personal_dps_without_hunting_party <> raid_dps_with_replenishment + healers_not_going_oom

which tends to be a harder calculation to nail down. As a raid healer, I can tell you the differences between 0, 1 and 2+ replenishment sources in a 25 man raid are quite noticeable.

[edit] Apologies for shitting up the BM thread with replenishment talk.

 

Nooska

Replenishment is 0.25% (is this getting changed in 3.1.?) every second for X second (can't remember)

"only 10 raid members" well 2 replenishers who cn keep a 100% uptime means all the raid has replenishment at all times, I assume any 25 player raid s runnning with at least 5 non-mana users.

Whether survival brings replenishmet seems to be a personal consideration (for some weird reason) rather than a raid consideration - this is what I'm getting from the discussion about sv hunters. It might be because I'm a raid officer that I find this odd, but I do find it odd that it is considered a personal choice whether to spec for a raid buff or not - but thats a severe sidetrack.

On that note though, who is it that can cover FI for us? Ret pallies? and do we actually have anything else we could / would want to spend the 3 points on?

 

Rosamonde

Regarding Replenishment -- I play both a mage and a hunter, and the differences in mana regen are quite different for the two. Basically, hunters get much better mana regen from Judgment of Wisdom, while casters and particularly healers (who do not directly hit the boss) benefit more greatly from Replenishment.

So Replenishment is a larger benefit to the raid as a whole than it might seem from the hunter's perspective. However, it is perfectly true that a number of other classes can also provide it, and it is hardly necessary for every hunter to provide this buff. If SV still put up the damage numbers that they did in BC, no one would be clamoring for them to bring Replenishment to the raid!


I would still spend the points on FI for the sake of the increased damage to Arcane Shot.

Cave canum...

Florimel (hunter) / Argent Dawn
Rosamonde (mage) / Argent Dawn
Lisieau (priest) / Argent Dawn

 

TrevvyTrev

Of course you don't bring a Survival hunter just for replenishment. You don't bring a BM hunter just for FI either. That isn't what I said. I just said that you can't say that SV is "nothing but dps" because they bring something else besides dps. Whether an individual raid needs that from the SV hunter or whether it's covered by someone else is beside the point -- and even if that were the point it applies to BM hunters too, since retadins bring the same buff in better fashion.

Replenishment is a required raid buff. And I've been in raids of both sizes where a survival hunter is the only class that brings it. Of all the hunter buffs, that is the ONLY one that a developer has singled out as being considered by them as "required." So to say that Survival hunters are nothing but dps when they also happen to be capable of bringing an important raid buff if needed doesn't make sense, especially when that may be the most important one as far as they are concerned. Mana regen is overlooked right now because mana comes too easy, which is why they are nerfing it for non-dps classes. But spirit regen is nerfed, druid mana costs are increasing, mana spring totem and blessing of wisdom no longer stack, and content is going to just plain be harder so it's still too early to assume that mana regen specs are an afterthought.

ALL hunter specs are brought mostly for their dps. And they all bring something else too. Fair is fair.

 

Kinetics

Yeah you're right, I just look at the main focus of the classes and what they are brought to the raids for. I wasn't trying to shit on replenishment either, I just never thought it was as useful for a hunter or the 10 other members for the raid. I was just thinking FI was a better buff coming from a BM hunter. If anything Trueshot Aura should be the best hunter buff brought to a raid. In most 25 man raids, there are "usually" plenty of pallys for all 3 buffs to go out. That'd be why I never spec'd into hunting party because it never seemed like that big of a deal to throw my point into. I'd rather have 3/3 in Expose Weakness. Sorry for pissing people off.

Your answer is in there, just stare down the barrel.

 

Nooska

@ TrevvyTrev and Hellusion

I did not get pissed off, and wasn't aiming at either of you with my wonderment.

I have just seen a few too many survival hunters thinking purely about their own dps and directly or indirectly saying that the replenishment doesn't matter because they don't get anything from speccing into it. Its just a peeve of mine that personal dps gets weighted over checking with raid officers whether their buffs are needed (which they are more often than not in our raid com) :o)

I can see my post could easily be construed as aimed at your comments right here, which it wasn't, and I apologize - I can only claim the late hour (almost midnight here) and slight fatigue fro moving around a 100 kg bed today :o)

 

Kinetics

Haha my bad, I know exactly where you're coming from. I just assumed points that were being used in Hunting Party could've gone elsewhere. :P

Your answer is in there, just stare down the barrel.

 

Kinetics

Alrighty time for a new topic. Has anyone noticed that Rabid for pets doesn't always proc when it should every 31.5 seconds? I find that my pet uses Rabid "when he wants to." I've actually had to go out of my way sometimes to click Rabid in order for him to actually use it. I've even though of putting it in my Steady Shot macro. Anyone else having this problem?

Your answer is in there, just stare down the barrel.

 

zeroKFE

Yes, it's actually been there since before 3.0.8, although I'm not quite sure how long.

My solution is exactly what you suggested: I turn off auto-cast, and macro it with Steady Shot.