TrevvyTrev

Most (if not all) of the "top" raids/parses already include a retribution paladin, who brings the same buff as FI (plus some others that raids really want). That may be why many raids can afford to have all the hunters spec SV or MM.

But if there isn't a Retribution paladin, then yes, a raid might get more from a single hunter specced as BM (assuming they also don't need someone for Replenishment).

 

torii

Thanks, good point ... did not know that Sanctified Retribution and Ferocious Inspiration do not stack.

 

Kurkis

You guys should look at BM more viable then just for an FI buff - Just got finished with Iron Council killing the Runeseer last on 25 man - As BM I put out 250,000 (5640 dps) more damage then anyone else in the raid.

You'll also notice on the spreadsheet there is a breaking point for BM where you benefit more from ARP gem stacking then AP stacking.

Provided you have the gear with no +hit on it you can switch over to a Grim Troll and wear stuff like Grobbulus Belt, Ring of Invincibility.

On the spreadsheet (provided it is calculating ARP correctly) using the items mentioned above is 1-2 DPS better then a Fury of the Fives set-up with a Torn Web Wrapping and a Strong-Hard Ring.

At some point after getting the Polearm from General or so you will break off and enable yourself to to stack to ARP (again, provided the spreadsheet is right).

My physical damage on Iron Council was ruffly 72% making this 100% viable. It was higher then a combat rogue in my raid by 4% or so.

 

TrevvyTrev

I don't think anyone posting in this thread considers BM as only viable for the FI buff. They are just discussing the relative value of it as a raid buff.

 

Kinetics

I did some testing tonight in Ulduar 25 on XT. We currently have 2 pallys so basically I'm only getting Might/kings. I find myself going quite low throughout the fight. Using the 53/11/7 spec I was doing completely fine, but I decided to switch my 2 points in Survival Instincts over to 2 in Invigoration. From there on I never had to go into viper. I think its definitely worth the investment if you don't have a 3rd pally for wisdom.

Your answer is in there, just stare down the barrel.

 

KraxisSingular

Unfortunately this is exactly the only point the spreadsheet is clearly not right. Shandara had to pull the latest changes as they were not right, so we are back to old values. But how they relate to current values is not easily determined as there is this 'max' amount of ArP that can get applied (from latest blue on the subject), so you can never get 100% ArP. So there is a hard ArP cap somewhre. If it is a realistic value, I don't know, but with Grim Troll it certainly seems possible.

 

Kurkis

Yeah, if it is possible to get correct values in the spreadsheet it would help out a lot.

With the current spreadsheet it says you need 360 passive haste before you can start gemming for Arp.

I know the Warriors are taking hard looks at ARP especially the Arms warriors since their Stance is ARP. I don't know Landsoul has it right for the warrior spreadsheet or not but if he does perhaps we can manage to use that formula for the hunter one.

 

Nooska

Just for a 2 cent input on FI.

I've been specced MM for te last several razorscale tries because I've been used to having a retridin in the radi. Our retridin has gone prot however, so suddenly the 3% increased raid damage was gone, and no one noticed.
I decided to gove BM a chance because I felt my dps was too low on razorscale during the landings (for some reason the spreadsheet agrees that my overall dps is lower as MM - but personal dps is very much higher than as BM).

When I specced BM we went from doing ~17-18% damage on razorscale per down to doing 27% on the first down (with BL). Obviously its not all FI, but looking at who died when FI had a huge contributatory part in that.
For the last try our protidin went ret because we had plenty of tanks, so FI was cancelled out, but I still saw a better dps output because my pet fully gained from WF and BL moreso than me.

 

Shandara

I have since implemented the values detailed in the Combat Ratings at 80 thread on how ArP is handled.

WotLK Hunter DPS Spreadsheet

 

King-Slide

There's one thing troubling me:

Why is everyone going the 8%Hit 2/5 Mortal Shots Route?
Wouldn't it be better to go for 6% Hit and 2/3 Focussed Aim?

Mortal Shots is a mediocre talent for BM and FA was fixed to give our pets the +hit bonus.
In theory, this would free up 65 points on our gear equalling 130 ap.

 

Forage

I think t7 or better gear already has enough hit built in to reach the hit cap.

My gear doesn't so I goot 3/3 Focused Aim...

 

Nahiag

Now with the new wolf howl how will wolf work vs devilasur as BM? BM howl is 206 ap as average over 31 sec compared to normal 160. Feels like devilasur will still end out on top though.

 

ghaleonausa

maybe this has been covered but i have a question, cobra strikes effects pet special attack, unless i am miisunderstanding this talent is 100% worthless if you go as BM and use a wolf. would this be correct?

 

ghaleonausa

they don't stack but FI is better since it has no range, my understanding is it just plain effects entire raid, where as SR needs you to be within range of pally

 

TrevvyTrev

Bite (and claw, and smack) are all pet "special attacks." Cobra strikes will make those crit if your pet doesn't have a family special that crits.

The range on SR is as wide as the paladin's aura, which is 40 yards. It's not hard to be within range of that. Plus it's always up as long as the paladin is. The raid loses FI if the pet dies or more often, has to stop attacking something long enough for it to fade, or if the pet gets an unlucky string of non crits.

 

• CureFC

edit: Way too slow.

 

halabar

Running as BM with 53/11/7 in Nax25 tonight, I was running ~4500 dps on Patchwerk, with a still not optimized rotation (macroed). Seems that we are doing OK in 25-mans, but the falloff is step without the 25-man buffs.

 

chronaden

What is the haste cap from gear @ BM hunter? i mean, when will haste start to work against you instead?

 

Holas

Presuming you take the 20% haste talent in the beast master tree you become soft haste caped. With that plus 15% from auto shot. (old quiver)

 

chronaden

So thats 0 haste from gear :P

 

Homarid

Whenever I try out focused aim on the spreadsheet I get lower dps than gearing for the hit. Are you seeing an increase?

 

Zigazaha

Putting 3 talent points into Focused aim instead of gearing for hit is going to be a Dps loss.
The reason for this is you loose 3 talent points that could be put elsewhere for a greater Dps gain.
Hopefully most of your hit is built into your gear though.

 

Qrt

Well no, not exactly; besides some haste is probably unavoidable.

For a BM with our 5/5 Serpents Swiftness you don't need more +haste to get your SS cast speed down to the GCD. But any haste you add will give you faster auto-shots. And the auto-shot at current gear-levels hits as hard or harder than Steady Shot. So the +haste isn't wasted as such, it would just have been better if the items were itemized with +AP or perhaps +crit, as they give us more bang for our buck.

Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: Igor, help me with the bags.
Igor: Soitenly. You take the blonde, I'll take the one in the turban.
Dr. Frederick Frankenstein: I was talking about the luggage.

 

ghaleonausa

thanks, thinking talent should just say " all pets attacks" and not say special attacks.

 

Iru

No, because pets do white melee damage as well. It's just that since WotLK, all pets have a focus dump - bite, claw, or smack, depending on the pet family - and that attack is always affected by cobra strikes, even if the pet's family specific attack cannot crit, e.g. wolf's howl.

Try turning of your wolf's bite and send it to attack a dummy. It will still do damage.