Did you try BM with Agility gems? Personally I have fairly low ArP as it is, but if I spec the highest damage I can (full Mortal Shots and 4/5 Imp Tracking) Agility stays ahead of ArP, which is well ahead of AP.
Given that your Arcane was apparently worth using before the change to Steady Shot in FI, as is the case for me, I have a feeling we are fairly close in stats (our DPS seems to confirm this).

Despite this, for me at least BM remains more than 1.2k behind compared to MM and around 300 to Surv. Better, but aside from the noted advantage on Putri for instance, it still has too many detractions. In the situations it is good Surv is just as good (heavy mobility).

It's funny, with this change BM is actually only different from the old TBC BM by Serpent Sting and BW cooldown.

It is a case of giving with one and taking with the other however - it's a PvE buff at the expense of a somewhat significant "beastcleave" arena nerf (where Arcane is 2nd priority behind Aimed).

Nonetheless having BM viable in raiding again will be incredibly welcome; I'm quite looking forward to it.

Well, that and the autoshot changes - in BC you at least had to rely on your StS being sub-GCD and your autoshot speed lining up with the resulting GCDwaits to get autoshots off between steadies - now you can literally chain steadies and your autoshots will still go off regardless of your weapon speed.

edit:

Is it actually an outright nerf to BM PvP? As I understand it, while the FI change will mean much lower arcane shot damage, it'll also mean FI's 3% overall damage buff will be up 100% of the time, whether your pet is critting or alive.

Just wanted to addd a quick note.
i see it was mentioned that serpent sting should be refreshed before ti expires. I have to disagree with this logic.
at first glance it would seem thats the thing to do... keep serpent doing dps 100% of the time, but what should be looked at is DPS per GCD.
this is why glyph of seprent sting is such a dps booster, it doesnt add any actual dps.. it makes the sting last longer with the same dps... this frees up time for additional GCD's

waiting for serpent sting to drop off in favor of one shot will gain you one extra GCD and only lose you one tic of serpent sting damage... or loosing 500 damage in favor of a shot that will average about 2000 damage.
this results in more DPS per GCD.

please correct me if i have missed something

I think you have missed something, namely the [Glyph of Steady Shot] - if SrS drops off the target for a steady you loose 9.09...% damage from the steady, as well as a tick of SrS (waiting for the GCD).

Also, and you might mean the same thing, but dps per gcd is a meaningless number (as a gcd is always 1.5 seconds) so what we should be looking at is damage per gcd - taking into account all teh relevant cross boost effects (like SrS boosting steady).

Thats true, but if you don't use SrS anymore you wouldn't be using the Steady Shot glyph either and replace it with another glyph which would partially compensate for that loss. Doing a very quick comparison via femaldwarf.com i see the following for my char:

BM with Steady glyph & SrS: 9680.58 DPS
BM with Steady glyph relaced by Hawk and no SrS: 9302.44 DPS

DPS loss: -378.14 DPS

which is roughly a 4% DPS loss and what i would have expected (saving 1 GCD every and using Hawk vs. Steady glyph).

So it looks like according to ghostcrawler ferocious inspiration increases ss dmg as well as keeps arccane shot dmg. Even with this wouldn't sshots still be doing more damage with the right amount of armor pen.

The 3.3.3 patch notes say "Ferocious Inspiration: This ability is now an aura and provides 1/2/3% damage to all party or raid members within 100 yards and boosts the damage of Steady Shot by 3/6/9%."

It is my understanding that Steady Shot damage would be increased *instead* of Arcane Shot, not that both would be increased, and I haven't been able to find anything that says differently. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying here, if you have a source for FI increasing the damage for both Arcane and Steady Shot, please post it.

That being said, Steady Shot is used more often than Arcane Shot and it scales with Armor Pen, so a boost to Steady Shot should be an overall damage boost even with losing the boost to Arcane Shot. Even as it stands currently, BM starts to benefit more from ArPen than Agility at around 550 passive ArPen (which I believe is the same point for MM, at least for my own gear). A percent increase to Steady Shot damage would make it more so.

EDIT: Found the source for Ghostcrawler's comment.

But the question is, will the change to the talent be more benefical to drop arcane shot from your rotation, since were not losing the arcane shot damage.

seems like with all other specs it will depend on your gear. At high ArP arcane will still be a dps loss so SS spam with Aimed (if you specced for it) mixed in will be the way to go. Maybe there is a way for them to let aimed shot buff Steady deep in the BM tree (Aimed shot crits have a chance to make your next steady shot do 20% more damage). Would be a very small help for pvp as they don't get to SS much

PvP bonuses are less relevant for this thread since it is about raiding as BM. That said, it would have to be a significant bonus just to convince BM hunters to spec into Aimed Shot in the first place, instead of putting that point elsewhere.

the only reason I even consider aimed shot in a spec is because of movement, having an instant to cast that benefits from ArP seems much better than 1 point in imp. tracking. And yes everything has to be considered with pvp implications. As soon as you start moving those 4 points in tracking become less valuable as you only have 1 shot to use (not counting studder-step autos as they are hard to quantify). Adding something to encourage BM to take aimed would also add some much needed break-up of the steady spam that high-end gear promotes.

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to my point. Yes, every change has to consider ramifications for both PvE and PvP. What I said, though, is that this thread is about raiding as BM. Raiding BM hunters don't take Aimed Shot. Changes to encourage the use of Aimed Shot have a greater chance of impacting PvP than they do for PvE, and that is in fact one of the things that the original quote I responded to said -- that a boost to Aimed Shot deep in the tree would be a "small boost to PvP since they don't get to SS much."

So if we're talking about overcoming whatever raiding deficiency that BM has, then solving it through Aimed Shot means we first need to convince BM hunters that Aimed Shot is worth speccing into for raiding. On "movement" fights it might be, but on any fight with adds and 0.5 second windows to stand still for multi-shot, then it won't be. All of that begs the question of where BM stands overall -- because if BM is lacking generally then a solution that might amount to a bonus in movement-heavy fights isn't all that helpful.

Those first two paragraphs were a little too hypothetical for this thread anyway, since it's not about suggestions but about actual tactics for raiding as BM post 3.3. So with that I'll say that even if stutter-step auto shots are "harder to quantify", that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try, since auto shot dwarfs other shot damage for BM hunters by a large margin. One of the reasons that Improved Tracking is harder to spec out of is because it is one of the few talents that actually affects auto shot (unlike mortal shots, for example).

I only have ~55% crit in raiding gear, so this certainly could change at BiS crit levels, but for me 5 points in Imp. Tracking and 4 in Mortal Shots is better than the other way around, so the loss would be 2 points in Improved Tracking. Also, I tend to hit multiple targets with multi-shot on many encounters, because they have adds and no one uses break-on-damage CCs in raids very much these days.

That means a boost to Aimed Shot would have to be pretty large to overcome a 2% damage loss on auto shot, serpent sting, arcane shot and steady shot. On add-based fights I wouldn't use Aimed Shot even if I specced into it, so the bonus would be totally wasted there.

The most interesting part of the mix, for me, is whether one is intending to utilise BM to be a dual raid build in conjunction with another spec. For example, someone with ArP stacked gear for a MM dual spec is incredibly likely to pick up AiS for their BM dual or someone with an Agi stacked SV dual could ignore AiS in their BM build - whereas BM as an exlusive raiding talent will be a completely different kettle of fish. I think we'll see more than a few hunters discussing raiding as BM whilst keeping an eye on taking advantage of the gearing/gemming choices from their other "main raid spec" post 3.3.3 - the results of which could be quite intriguing.

With the fix to the ICC buff (hooray for all pet users), BM is going to be slightly less unfavourable. Though I would still not use BM on BQL.
The advantages of being BM has already been posted for Putri (sacrifice personal DPS for rDPS), and fights like Lady Deathwhisper and Saurfang certainly do give BM some validity.

After looking at the suggested BM build in the first post - 53/14/4, it looks like taking Aimed Shot would be just moving one point out of Improved Tracking. The question is, will it be a DPS loss or a DPS gain? With high enough ArP, Aimed Shot hits very hard and would be better than the extra point in improved tracking, especially for fights where you move a lot and for fights where using multishot would be a bad idea.

As always use the spreadsheet to help determine if the change is right for you. Of course keep in mind that in some fights, the healing debuff helps. Think Faction Champions for a fight where another shot useable on the run as well as a healing debuff would be very useful. While a 25 person raid should have another person who can do the healing debuff, it doesn't always happen. And in a 10 person raid, there is a good chance no one else can do the healing debuff.

Edit: One point to remember is you can't always used multishot. And in ICC there are a lot of fights where you are on the move a lot, so another mobile shot helps with these fights.

I'm pretty sure the spec with Aimed Shot is going to be optimal in reality due to movement. I do not think it's very hard for it to overcome the dps lost by not having the extra point in Improved Tracking, at least on the majority of encounters.

The "majority" of encounters don't require you to be running or jumping and shooting at the same time for the whole fight. Standing still for a multishot isn't the same as standing still for a steady shot. It's only 0.5 seconds. Any fight that doesn't allow you enough time for a multi wouldn't allow you to use auto shots either, and that's the largest damage percentage shot for BM. In short, if your movement issues are that severe to where you need aimed over multi, then you probably shouldn't be specced BM for that fight at all.

Plus, even though Aimed does better when you want to shoot without stopping, it does worse on any fight where there are non-CC'ed adds, and there are a fair number of those too. Trying to "fix" BM raid dps through abilities that most BM raiders don't take is a long shot -- that's what happened with Catlike Reflexes. It's not going to work unless you really buff the crap out of Aimed Shot for BM, which may over-buff it. And since most BM hunters use Aimed Shot for PvP, where they are trying not to buff BM, that opens a whole new can of worms.

I was messing around as BM in my guild's 25 man and I noticed something odd.

After reviewing the fight on World of Logs, I came to the conclusion that while I still took a damage while under the effect of The Beast Within, I was not stunned by Vile Gas. This is not startling considering the definition of Bestial Wrath and other enrage effects. However, I think it might have a distinct advantage during this encounter... with a little micro management. Judging from the logs the last (3rd) Vile gas I received was countered by The Beast Within effect(Bestial Wrath) AFTER I had been targeted and "painted" by the effect of Vile Gas. I also took no damage. So, it seems to me that there is a cushion that makes timing bestial wrath during this encounter even more possible. The time from when fester looks, casts, and you are still able to move and cast for a bit while dark orange/about to puke.

I was fishing the logs trying to think of a better way to represent this, but this is all I could think of.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
This is the query for vile gas.

[23:26:43.562] Sulik afflicted by Vile Gas from Festergut
[23:26:45.593] Festergut Vile Gas Sulik 4573
[23:26:47.508] Festergut Vile Gas Sulik 4574
[23:26:49.624] Festergut Vile Gas Sulik 4573
[23:26:49.624] Sulik's Vile Gas fades
[23:27:13.752] Sulik afflicted by Vile Gas from Festergut
[23:27:15.838] Festergut Vile Gas Sulik 4713
[23:27:17.751] Festergut Vile Gas Sulik 4713
[23:27:19.869] Festergut Vile Gas Sulik 4714
[23:27:19.869] Sulik's Vile Gas fades
[23:28:37.338] Sulik afflicted by Vile Gas from Festergut
[23:28:38.254] Sulik's Vile Gas fades

Here is Bestial Wrath
[23:24:20.072] Sulik gains The Beast Within from Sulik
[23:24:30.087] Sulik's The Beast Within fades
[23:25:44.859] Sulik gains The Beast Within from Sulik
[23:25:54.941] Sulik's The Beast Within fades
[23:27:13.667] Sulik gains The Beast Within from Sulik
[23:27:23.656] Sulik's The Beast Within fades
[23:28:38.254] Sulik gains The Beast Within from Sulik

This is the query for Auto-Shot

2nd Vile gas while under the effect of The Beast Within (Bestial Wrath) due to pure RNG
[23:27:11.839] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut 3385
[23:27:13.670] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut *6734*
[23:27:15.838] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut 3728
[23:27:17.751] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut 3884
[23:27:19.869] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut *8712*
[23:27:21.802] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut *8754*

3rd Vile Gas
[23:28:36.895] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut 3995
[23:28:38.527] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut *7543*
[23:28:39.863] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut *8117*
[23:28:41.304] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut 3713
[23:28:42.640] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut 3932
[23:28:44.088] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut *8203*
[23:28:45.526] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut 3662
[23:28:46.814] Sulik Auto Shot Festergut 3658

I am not 100% sure but it seems to make sense, any input would be appreciated.

BW used to prevent the disorient effect from the Eredar Twin's Conflagrate, but still cause the damage from it to go through, so it seems quite plausible - Vile Gas seems to do a very similar disorient effect which can be PvP trinketed out of.

Ferocious Inspiration - Spell - World of Warcraft

Wowhead's datamined 3.3.3 Ferocious Inspiration. This is in line with how Ghostcrawler is talking about the ability.

Tried this for fun using the spreadsheet... kind of ridiculous...

Using an ArP build I can reduce BM to steady shot spam (plus killshot) and only lose 155 dps. Yes, no serpent sting either.

Rotation: Serpent > Killshot > Aimed > Steady
With glyphs: Steady shot, Serpent sting, Bestial wrath
11,111 dps


Rotation: Killshot > Steady
With glyphs: Imp. Hawk, Killshot, Bestial wrath
Swapped out T10 gloves to break 4pc bonus and replaced with Logsplitters. Also changed my tainted twig of nordrassil to Hersir's Greatspear to replace +hit loss on gloves.
10,956 dps

You can boost this slightly by putting aimed shot back in the rotation but it only ends up being around a 40 dps increase because you will lose approx 5% crit on pet specials from the cobra strikes loss.

Quite a bit of extra effort for only 150 dps. I played with this on PTR and saw a similar gap even without being able to benefit from the killshot glyph on target dummies.