@kabes:
You have one very fundamental error in your comparison when looking at validity;
You have improved hawk glyph in the KS>SS spam and you do not have it in the SrS>KS>AiS>SS (which looks like a weird priority for BM).
I think you would find a DPS gain of more than 150 if you replaced the KS glyph with SS glyph and changed your priority to KS>SrS>SS.

The reason I think the first priority looks weird is first of all that you are prioing SrS over KS (KS gains nothing from SrS, the only shot that gains is SS, so SrS is only worth more if it boosts the following steadies - and only if the gain from the steadies + the SrS damage is higher than an additional unboosted SS (Think; Time To Live).
Secondly you use Aimed Shot.
I don't see where you are getting the point for Aimed that wouldn't give more dps gain elsewhere.

I absolutely agree (as will most probably) that dropping Arcane from the priority lists is a given at some point of conflux between AP and ArP because SS will give more true damage than the arcane - but I have yet to see a build where Aimed Shot can be learned without giving up more dps than you gain (Improved Tracking springs to mind - especially with Mortal Shots only benefitting Steadies and not autoshots in our normal "rotation")

On my sheet putting SrS before or after killshot in the priority list is only a 1 or 2 dps difference so I didn't think much of it.

Swapping hawk and SrS glyphs in the first build results in the same DPS for me, the glyphs appear to have equal value. I just prefer SrS in that case cause I have to apply it less often.

As for multishot vs. aimed shot it's a debate that's been had. Some people prefer the extra theoretical damage and some prefer having an extra instant shot on hand. If I dropped aimed shot and put a point into improved tracking instead the gap between the builds would remain pretty much the same.

So even using your suggested changes, the gap between a "normal" rotation and just spamming steady shot remains the same for me.

You are correct that adding serpent sting to the 2nd build and replacing the one glyph results in an increase, but then it wouldn't just be steady shot spam which was the whole point

Edit: Re-reading your post something dawned on me... I was so concerned with keeping the talent builds the same that I forgot about it. Drop aimed shot from the 2nd build's talents and put that point into imp tracking. End result is 11138dps which is higher than the first build! Of course if I did the same with build 1, it would also go up the same amount, but you'd lose the benefit of an instant shot.

After having mulled over it most of the evening (its 11 pm right now) I've decide to play around with the idea a bit more (tomorrow).

Could you link the spec you have been using for the calculations so I start at approximately the same place as you (to start by looking at gear).
Also, what fight length and sub 20% health length do you have?
I assume you've been using the latest spreadsheet (93i) where the 3.3.3 ptr changes are in (the one to FI in particular adding 9% damage to SS)

I think its an interesting thought to have a utility spec that sacrifices instants for spam and can bring a lot of different things to the raid - in particular 10 man - by switching the pet out.

I have to be honest, I would probably never have thought about switching SrS out of the rotation entirely - but it does take away a good deal of dps on the short duration fights - and when you apply it just before it stops "working" (I'm thinking Blood Princes - I know I've applied it quite a number of times to have it tick for max 1 SS if not less before the orb moves - its awareness and learninng the fight, but it still annoying - even as MM)
I am quite looking forward to 3.3.3 and being able to raid as BM again by bringing some utility we are sorely lacking in 10 man.

Right.
Having thought about kabes posting I played around with the spreadsheet (93i).
I decided the following assumptions;

- The same spec for all the rotations (I went with 54/14/4 to pick up anything that would increase dps for SS and other shots as well)
- That I wouldn't use Aimed in any rotations as that would require a talent point to be taken out of something else and therefor shifting specs - otherwise there would be a wasted talent point in the non aimed rotations)
- Standard 25 man buffs (the ones that come preloaded with the spreadsheet)
- Standard fight length from the spreadsheet (6 minute duration, 1.2 minutes at sub 20%)
- Standard latency (150 ms)
- Standard "Max time to wait for CD's" (800ms)
- To not go with BiS gear, as thats relatively meaningless for most people - I went with what I happen to have from 10 man ICC and before.
- I did regem for ArP, as thats the whole basis for the postulation
- To not simply stack in favor of SS and retain the 2t9 bonus (which I have and most people will keep untill 4t10 I suspect)
- Staying in Dragonhawk untill OOM (no switching for BW) - which doesn't happen in any of these rotations
- For all rotations Rapid fire and Bestial Wrath are popped when available (but I won't mention it in the results)
- Using a wolf pet because rotations have the smallest impact on the wolf (as opposed to a devilsaur where reality means timing certain things to the pets specials)
- To test 4 rotations; 1) pure Steady spam, 2) Steady spam with SrS up, 3) Steady spam with KS on CD, and finally the "regular" rotation of 4) Killshot, SrS and Steady.

For the first set of tests I used the following glyphs;
[Glyph of the Hawk], [Glyph of Steady Shot] and [Glyph of Bestial Wrath] because off the bat these made as much sense as anything else to me.

I will present the numbers (which are the specifics for my setup, but should probably be taken more in the abstract)
The numbers will be presented in this format: [Total DPS] - [Hunter DPS] / [Pet DPS]
I decided to note all 3 numbers as it would be interesting to see how the different rotations affected the pet dps as well as the hunter dps with the total actually being the less interesting number.

I also did a pure auto with RF and BW on CD for baseline;
4340,78 - 2231,53 / 2109,25

Set 1 (Hawk, BW, SS)
1) 7586,62 - 4796,53 / 2790,09
2) 7919,65 - 5143,29 / 2776,36
3) 7717,11 - 4927,23 / 2789,88
4) 8049,78 - 5274,37 / 2775,41

What is immediately aparant is that using SrS is a dps loss for our pet - this is of course due to SrS replacing a steady shot and thus fewer steadies for cobra procs.
What is also immediately apparant is that Serpent sting is a significant dps gain - this is of course due in part to the SS glyph.

In this thread is has been suggested that the [Glyph of Serpent Sting] is better than the BW glyph, so I decided to switch them out - as the purpose of this test wasn't to find the best steady spam setup but to examine the viability of contemplating it;

Set 2 (Hawk, SrS, SS)
1) 7538,42 - 4784,13 / 2754,29
2) 7953,87 - 5209,75 / 2744,12
3) 7668,49 - 4914,45 / 2754,04
4) 8078,46 - 5334,62 / 2743,84

Again, we see that applying SrS is a slight dps loss for our pet, but a significant larger gain for our personal dps. The other interesting thing is that the loss of BW is an immediatley apparant loss for the pet, the hunter gains more than the pet looses, so under these circumstances SrS glyph is definately more valuable than BW.
After doing this test I had to admit that so far I had stacked the deck against the steady spam - because if we wanted to truly try that out I had 1 or 2 totally wasted glyphs in the above tests, the Steady glyph in both and the serpent sting in the second test.
I looked at glyph choices that wouldn't be relevant for the different rotations and still be somewhat of a gain - I looked at them with an eye on "what would I use if I knew I wasn't using X"
So I made Set 3 with [Glyph of Rapid Fire] instead of the SS glyph from the first set.

Set 3 (Hawk, RF, BW)
1) 7602,06 - 4811,98 / 2790,09
2) 7734,97 - 4985,61 / 2776,36
3) 7732,73 - 4942,85 / 2789,88
4) 7872,15 - 5096,73 / 2775,41

Once again we show that SrS is a dps loss for our pet.
This set shows about the same differences as kabes mentions - droppig SrS for pure SS (no KS) results in a net loss of ~130 dps - while we personally gain dps our pet looses it. Remove 2t9 and it will probably be even close as there will be not crit ticks.
Adding in KS is a slight loss for the pet over pure SS spam, but an overall gain. The interesting part here, I think, is that dropping KS and using SrS results in slightly higher DPS - which isn't interesting except, KS can only be used sub 20% so using SrS instead of KS will be more consistent dps than using SS and KS.
Again the "normal" rotation comes out on top by ~270 dps in this set.

I did a 4th set where I exchanged BW for RF glyph (compared to the first set), but my later test made this set pretty irrelevant.

For the question at hand; "Is it viable to contemplate Steady spam" none of the sets will answer the question themselves, as the sets are differentiated by the glyph choices. These choices should be balance out against what you want to use, thus;
To find whether SS spam is viable, the best set for each rotation must be used, so as to give each rotation the best scenario.
Optimaly I would have changed the talent points from 5/5 Mortal shots and 4/5 Improved tracking to account for these 2 talents, but I decided not to on the basis that
- Mortal Shots affects Steady Shot and Kill Shot equally
- Improved Tracking affects autoshots, Steady Shots, Kill shots and Serpent Sting equally
- 5/5 Improved Tracking and 4/5 Mortal shots would only increase the relative value of serpent sting compared to the other shots, and serpent sting is already showing an increase from being added - no pertinant information would be gained from increasing the relative value more.
Autoshots should be the same for all sets as the spreadsheet averages out IAotH - a simulation might have yielded different results as procs wouldn't fall at the same points in a fight - therefor the spreadsheet give sus the better answer for this question.

Thus the best results across the sets are:
1) 7602,06 - 4811,98 / 2790,09 (RF, BW, Hawk)
2) 7953,87 - 5209,75 / 2744,12 (SS, SrS, Hawk
3) 7732,73 - 4942,85 / 2789,88 (RF, BW, Hawk)
4) 8078,46 - 5334,62 / 2743,84 (SS, SrS, Hawk)

From this, the loss from the "normal" rotation of (RF > BW >) KS > SrS > SS to pure steady spam is ~470 dps (or 5,9%). The loss from the normal rotation to Steady spam with KS on CD is ~345 dps (or 4,3%).
Under the right glyphs the contribution from Killshot over the course of a full fight is considerably less than the contribution from SrS - and I doubt any of us would consider dropping those killshots during the last part of a fight.
To be fair, the actual contribution of KS should probably be looked at in a pure sub 20% scenario and looked at in the those terms and I won't infer any value on KS alone from these calculations (nor would I suggest that any valu can be inferred for KS).


At this time I decided to check the validity of my glyph choices and see how they affected the 4th rotation - the normal rotation - because it came out on top on every set, just to make sure I hadn't made any gross errors.
Therefore I tested the glyphs that would provide any sort of dps increase to the standard rotation.
I did this by using the same rotation and removing all the glyphs and just adding 1 at a time;
First I did a baseline to get delta values of the glyphs;

No glyphs:
7716,57 - 4976,80 / 2739,76
(interesting the spreadsheet has some hidden digits resulting in what appears to be a rounding error loosing 0,01 dps)

[Glyph of Steady Shot]
7909,27 - 5169,50 / 2739,76 Δ 192,70 - 192,70 / 0

[Glyph of the Hawk]
7807,70 - 5067,94 / 2739,76 Δ 91,13 - 91,13 / 0

[Glyph of Kill Shot]
7798,40 - 5057,66 / 2740,74 Δ 81,83 - 80,86 / 0,98

[Glyph of Serpent Sting]
7788,50 - 5044,66 / 2743,84 Δ 71,93 - 67,86 / 4,07

[Glyph of Bestial Wrath]
7765,39 - 4989,98 / 2775,41 Δ 48,82 - 15,44 / 33,38

[Glyph of Rapid Fire]
7732,01 - 4992,24 / 2739,76 Δ 15,44 - 15,44 / 0

I have ordered the glyphs by the delta value.
This "test" suggests that the greatest increas in dps will be had from Hawk/SS/KS combo with a combined suggested delta of 365,66 (or 4,738% increase over the baseline). Plugging them in results in a dps of
Hawk/SS/KS
8080,67 - 5339,94 / 2740,74 Δ 364,10 - 363,14 / 0,98

Actual delta is 364,10 - or 4,718% increase over the baseline.
Slightly less than expected; the pets contribution is precisely as expected, however the hunters contribution is 1,56 dps lower than the suggested delta - the most logical reason for this is having to hold shots slightly because of the decreased CD on KS.

Here is where common sense kicks in - as I've stated many times, KS glyph only helps sub 20% - so the real dps gain over the fight length is dependant on consistantly downing the boss - if not SrS glyph might be a better option.
Of course, while I'm doing all this I had no excuse to not test that as well.
SrS glyph comes in 4th place on the delta "chart" above, and on conjunction with Hawk and SS suggest a delta of 355,76(or 4,610% over the baseline). Plugging that in results in;
Hawk/SS/SrS
8078,46 -5334,62 / 2743,84 Δ 361,89 - 357,82 / 4,08

Actual delta is 361,89 - or 4,690% (rounded) increase over the baseline.
Sligtly more than expected; the pets contribution is, once again, exactly as expected (I blame the rounding "error" from the baseline for the extra 0,01 dps) while the hunter contribution is 6,13 dps over expected. Exactly what plays in her eI am not sure - but again I am led to believe that the GCD / KS distribution is simply more optimal with less waiting time - the odd thing here is that at no point is a steady over the gcd, the latency should be fixed for all shots as they all take 1 gcd, but I assume it must be a question of latency/time to wait for CD playing together nicer without the KS glyph.

The really interesting thing to take out of the last setup is this;
The dps loss from dropping KS glyph and grabbing SrS will only be a 2 dps (with these numbers) or 0,03% loss - and only if you consistently down bosses.


---

I would love to see others using their actual gear to double check the results I've given - both for the rotations and for the glyphs, but please use the same assumptions as I listed in the beginnig so its comparable (easiest way you can do so is download a fresh 93i spreadsheet) - and please point out if you think I stacked the deck against either scenario through the spec (though, as explained I don't think I did)

---
TL;DR

The normal rotation; (RF > BW >) KS > SrS > SS will yield nontrivially higher dps over any rotation that drops serpent sting - with or without SS or SrS glyph (or even without both).
KS adds less dps oer a fight than SrS, but should be kept due to real dps increase when available.
Additionally the highest yielding glyphs for BM are (in order of yield for the rotation) SS> Hawk > KS > SrS > BW > RF - though in any practical situation you will more likely see a higher consistent yield from SS + Hawk + SrS glyphs than from SS+ Hawk + KS.

After having reviewed what I've stated in the post above (after a question by pm) I realized that I did a disservice to rotation 3 (SS spam with KS on cd) in the "best of".
Set 3 with RF, BW and Hawk glyhs was biased toward pure steady spam in the glyph choices. By looking at the rankings KS glyph is more dps than RF glyph, so I have done a new "set" for rotation 3 replacing RF glyph with KS glyph resulting in a new "best result".
It doesn't change the conclusion in my opinion, but I present it here for completeness:

Set 4 (KS, BW, Hawk)
1) 7586,62 - 4796,53 / 2790,09
2) 7719,53 - 4943,17 / 2776,36
3) 7805,19 - 5015,11 / 2790,09
4) 7938,25 - 5161,89 / 2776,36

Obviously this set does not benefit rotation 1 and 2 as they don't utilize KS, and in fact there is a slight dps loss over set 3 as the loss of the additional haste from the RF glyph affects all 4 rotations (though with a greater gain from the KS glyph than the loss, resulting in a positive delta for rotation 3 and 4)

This results in a new "best of" compilation looking thus:

1) 7602,06 - 4811,98 / 2790,09 (RF, BW, Hawk)
2) 7953,87 - 5209,75 / 2744,12 (SS, SrS, Hawk
3) 7805,19 - 5015,11 / 2790,09 (KS, BW, Hawk)
4) 8078,46 - 5334,62 / 2743,84 (SS, SrS, Hawk)

Obviously this doesn't change anything about the conclusions concerning the inclusion of SrS, so they stand as postulated.

@Rosamonde

I've been thinking about the idea of adding a note about the pet families that can bring specific debuffs - mainly for the 10 player environment - under pet choices - and dps specs for cunning and tenacity pets.

To give an example, my raidgroup doesn't have a single warrior, and only 1 rogue to apply the major armor reduction debuff. A little work with the spreadsheet shows me losing roughly 100 dps by bringing a dps specced worm (over a wolf) with a raid gain of more than this - in comparison our rogue says he would loose more dps by keeping up expose armor. My thoughts on this are partly to let the people in charge know it can be a benefit to ask a BM to loose some personal dps for raid gain, but also to let all our BM friends know which pets to keep ready and when it can be a benefit to not simply bring personal dps.

Thoughts?

Carrion Birds are quite nice for their AoE AP reduction debuff. They are non-exotic and ferocity pets too, so non BM hunters can use them at minimal DPS loss too.

Personal experience with them:
- The cooldown on their Demoralizing Screech is the same as the debuff duration (10s iirc), so if you leave everything on auto-cast, you only get around 70-80% uptime on the debuff, which may not be acceptable.
- To work around this, you can turn off their focus dump ability, which gets the uptime over 90% (I think I still saw it drop off a bit), or you can get a second hunter in the raid with a carrion bird, and both use them with everything on autocast.
- I last did the math in T8 for a 10 man raid of non-BM hunters, but 2 hunters using carrion birds with their focus dump enabled was better raid DPS with 100% uptime on the debuff than 1 using a wolf and 1 using a bird that only does half-DPS because of not using its focus dump.
- The debuff is unfortunately weaker than Vindication and talented Demo Shout (maybe untalented too?) so getting a player to provide the debuff if possible is still better for the tanks.
- Being a weaker debuff, the bird won't be able to apply/refresh it if a pally procced Vindication from an AoE move, which may lead to downtime when Vindication drops off (again assuming an AoE scenario)

Since its almost midnight I think I'll hold off on doing any spreadsheet work but I will post what I have thought up for a tenacity dps spec;

BM Tenacity DPS spec

In the talents the following are essential imo;

Tier 1: Cobra strikes 2/2
Tier 2: Spiked Collar 3/3
Tier 3: Culling the Herd 3/3
Tier 4: Grace of the mantis 2/2 (prereq for tier 6 talent)
Tier 5: Roar of Sacrifice 1/1 (Prereq for tier 6 talent)
Tier 6: Wild Hunt 2/2

Pet speed talent, 1 point, either Charge or Boar's Speed - I chose Boar's Speed due to it being passive.

This is only 14 points leaving 6 floaters.
1 of these must be spent in tier 1 (unless you go for charge, but honestly points are plentiful)
Another 1 point must be spent in tier 1-4, and another 2 in tier 1-5 to open up Wild hunt.

In my linked spec I have chosen general surviability with 3/3 Great Stamina, 2/2 Silverback and 1/2 Blood of the Rhino for more stamina and more healing incoming to the pet.
By opting out of guarddog I feel more comfortable keeping growl active (though threat shouldn't be an issue in a raid in my experience - as long as you don't sick the pet before the tank engages).

Another option is to spec the pet for some emergency rescue actions of healers or such by going for Charge, Guard dog, Taunt, Intervene and Last Stand while dropping stamina, BotR and Silverback in a spec such as this;
Hunter Pet Calculator - Wowhead

But really those 6 (or 7 if you consider the speed talent) floaters can be spent any way that makes the pet more verstile or useful for the specific circumstances of each raid.

My links are to a worm spec, but any tenacity pet will have the same options.


EDIT: Remember to push preview and not post - rest of post added.

Demoralizing Screech has been buffed some patches ago and is now exactly as strong as it's (fully talented) counterparts, with 575 AP reduction at max rank. For comparison, the untalented druid and warrior versions only reduce AP by 411.

The main thing Tenacity pets bring in terms of DPS, aside from racials, is Thunderstomp (remember to enable and disable it as per encounter of course). I wouldn't go with a spec without it. In fact I wouldn't take Silverback at all. Growl might not pull aggro, but it wastes a pet GCD for a very limited heal, and if it does end up pulling aggro, then you won't hear the end of it. It's just not worth it in my mind. Instead fill out Blood of the Rhino, for this Tenacity DPS spec. The bonus healing and extra Stamina should be worth a great deal more than what little Silverback can provide. Thinking JoL and other incidental heals.
Charge vs Boar's Speed... personal preferance I guess. But as BM with Longevity, 17.5 seconds doesn't seem all that long between Charges.

You are absolutely right - TS is a given in a tenacity DPS spec and I have no idea how it slipped my mind last night; Making TS one of the essential talents it makes absolutely the most sense to put the remaining point from silverback into BotR and disabling growl (somehow I also cmopletely forgot that growl uses a gcd - lesson learned; don't post when its too late to be lucid).

@DeavanSH

When you checked the spreadsheet, did you remember to compare the worm to a buff setting without sunder/expose armor up? Because thats the whole idea, that a minimal dps loss for switching a wolf to a worm (as I am offspec MM I won't be getting a devilsaur as long as we only have 5 stable spots) is worth it WHEN you don't have a warrior applying sunder. Also, I believe, you need a certain amount of ArP for it to be worthwhile - I haven't checked specifically how ArP amount affects the worth of sunder armor - but if I have grasped the mechanics correctly Sunder becomes more valuable the more armor you penetrate - because it becomes a proportionally higher amount of the remaining damage reduction.

We can quickly agree that if a warrior is present, its his/her job to sunder - no question - just as it is our job to trap, MD and kite (along with a few other classes).

The thought I had - which the others correctly interpreted - was to make note of the utility of BM (or hunters in general in regards to non exotic pets) to bring debuffs that can be useful when certain classes are missing - or at a lower dps loss than other classes (sunder is again the one I specifically examined). Not to say that they are a dps gain - but to say that at a slight loss of personal dps we can bring X, Y and Z which can be useful if the raid gain is greater than our personal loss. I know a lot of people are referred to EJ for more class info, and it is useful info to know as a hunter (BM or otherwise, but especially as BM with the 4 more points giving us a more versatile pet spec).


As to the thought at hand, I have to apologize for not doing anything myself, RL happened - I hope I will get back to doings omething during the general closing during the easter days.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. My number is based on someone in the raid providing the armor debuff. And my point was a rogue in 4 pc T10 will lose a lot less dps than a BM using a worm.

Yes, sunder does become more valuable. Also ArP become more valuable as you have more of it. At a certain amount of ArP using Hearty Rhino as well as the elixirs of Mighty Thoughts and Armor Piercing become dps increases. At least they do until you hit 100% ArP from gear and gems.

And I agree that this is useful information, its just that when the class people usually associate with the debuff isn't around, it doesn't necessarily mean a hunter's pet is the next best way to provide the debuff. Any information presented should include all possible ways to get the debuff and things that might affect which person in the raid should provide the debuff - again using the example of a rogue in 4pc T10 might be the best choice for the armor debuff if no warrior is present. And if no rogues in the raid have 4pc T10, it could very well be a worm is the best way to provide this debuff.

I've seen allot of posts where people do not spec with Invigoration. This seems strange to me as it is one of the best mana helping talents bm hunters have.
The numbers
0/2 Invigoration 9606.46 total dps 4.25 min to oom
1/2 Invigoration 9600.05 total dps 8.90 min to oom
2/2 Invigoration 9536.81 total dps at this point the spreadsheet doesn't give time to oom anymore, meaning we don't really go oom in a normal tank and spank fight.

I am taking points out of Improved tracking here going down to 2 points, Cobra strikes and longevity are the only other options and result in a bigger dps loss,

My conclusion here is that Invigoration is a talent that needs one point at the very least if u are in a guild that downs bosses fast, and needs 2 points if your guild is still struggling with some of the longer fights week to week.
It basically comes down to a 50-70dps loss for being able to dps forever instead of 4-4.50minutes

thoughts?

Edit: This test was done with using arcane shot, try'ed later without using arcane and the time to oom without invigoration went to a all time low of 4.12 minutes making the point even bigger then with using arcane.

Thanks for the reminder on Longevity, like I said I was using the pet as MM so ran into the cooldown issue. And yes, the AP debuff isn't useful all that often. Most hard-hitting bosses are designed with the assumption that an AP debuff is up though, and tanking them without it is generally asking for trouble - the effect of the small seeming AP debuff on a boss is very very noticeable from incoming damage on a tank. I wouldn't worry about it on Valithria either, but in my case it was either I bring a pet to do it, or a warlock uses CoW instead of CoE/CoA, since we really did need it to keep the tanks alive on Algalon 10 (this was before paladins were given the current Vindication). I assume any abilities listed in the list would only be used as a last resort, since all of the debuffs pets can provide are more conveniently provided by other classes. The list would just tell you what options you have, and what their pros and cons are.

Unless I am misunderstadning you (again) then there is no question you will see a large dps loss with going with a worm - as it doesn't bring the dps gain from sunder if it is already provided. It goes without saying that swithing to a lower dps pet without a gain from it will result in drastically lower dps - on the order of the number you are describing - the whole idea hinges on providing a raid benefit buff that isn't covered by someone else - or would be a bigger loss (not necessarily dps loss) to be covered by someone else (i.e. the resto druid providing Faerie Fire or somesuch)

Seeing as it isn't provided switching a wolf to a worm (I haven't modelled a devilsaur as I said) will be a very minor personal dps loss (or rather a pet dps loss and a personal gain with a net loss of a very small amount).
This small loss is less than a rogue will lose having to keep up expose armor according to the rogues I've talked to (admittedly its only very few, but they agreed that they will lose more dps than my overall loss which is rougly a 100 dps loss).
I am not 25 man geared and I am definately not BiS - but neither will most hunters that can use the information be.


Edit: had 25-man geared and BiS reversed in my sentence logic

I think the two of you may be circling each other in questioning, so here's what you're trying to find the answer to:
(admittedly I do not know enough about Rogue spreadsheeting to properly answer these questions, so I'm not even going to try)

Scenario:
-No one else in the raid can provide Sunder Armor / Expose Armor / Acid Spit.
Which allows for the most overall raid DPS?

1: Edit
2: Edit

3:
a) BM Hunter using a Wolf and DPSing, and a Rogue (without 4T10) using Expose Armor.
b) BM Hunter using a Worm with Acid Spit, and a Rogue (without 4T10) DPSing normally.

4:
a) BM Hunter using a Wolf and DPSing, and a Rogue (with 4T10) using Expose Armor.
b) BM Hunter using a Worm with Acid Spit, and a Rogue (with 4T10) DPSing normally.

Edit: Woops, silly me forgetting they're exotic.

Worms are exotic pets and can only be brought by a BM hunter. Your list has MM/SV with a worm as an option and that isn't valid.

You are correct, of course. I believe the idea of an MM hunter using a pet with a debuff was originally brought up in relation to using a Carrion Bird for its AP debuff, which is a non-exotic pet. There are several different scenarios being discussed here, and Lilbitters' post does get them a bit mixed up. S/he did do a good job of laying out the possibilities if you look only at the part regarding BM hunters.

RL intervened for me as well this weekend, however I think this will be a useful addition to the OP and I will write it up when I have the opportunity -- and yes, a discussion of the raid comp where using a lower-dps pet for its debuff would be the best solution should be part of it.

We are cursed with only 1 rogue who currently doesn't have 4t10 bonus.

You say I should be comparing a ferocity pet and someone else providing the debuff with a worm - that is the wrong test as the question isn't whether bringing a worm will free up more dps for someone else from something they were already doing.

The situation lifted to the theoretical is;

The raid is currently without major armor debuff, there is a rogue and a BM hunter in the raid.
There are 2 ways to get the major armor debuff on the bosses - the BM hunter switches to a worm from a ferocity pet (wolf or devilsaur, its a minor difference favoring the devilsaur I'm guessing).
If the BM hunter switches the comparison is a) Ferocity pet without debuff and b) Worm with debuff (provided by the worm)
If the rogue switches its a) the rogue with expose armor kept up 100% and b) the rogue without expose armor kept up.

The delta between a and b in both cases is how much each looses to keep up the debuff which isn't otherwise up - the lesser of these points to the one that should be keeping it up.

The comparison you are suggesting will always favor someone else keeping up the debuff - always - because you wil never gain any benefit whatsoever from dropping a dps benefit for a debuff that will be there regardless

The comparison I think you are suggesting is to compare the hunters dps with a) a ferocity pet and the debuff by someone else with the rogues dps b) without keeping up expose armor and dps'ing fully.
That comparison will show us which class gains the most from having someone else keep it up - and that could be a valid way of looking at it if there was only those 2 characters involved - but since the debuff benefits all the physical dps - including tanks - this comparison would lose you raid benefit while just looking at who gains the most.

the interesting thing is, not who gains the most by not providing the debuff, but who loses the least by providing it - compared to it not being there - regardless one of us is going to lose dps to keep it up - and the math shows that its the BM hunter + worm that loses the least, meaning the raid delta will be greater - raiding and utility isn't about personal performance but raid performance after all since all physical classes gain from the debuff.

EDIT:
Regarding Lilbitters list, 1 and 2 are not interesting, as this is the BM raiding thread, I will tend to assume that the hunter will be specced BM regardless of who brings the major armor debuff.

You have missed one of the major points. Presume the the 20% armor debuff will be there, no matter which class/person is providing it. It is generally agreeed a warrior will lose the least dps in providing the debuff.

If you have no warrior, you need to see who has the lower dps loss to provide the debuff. To calculate that, you compare your dps using your ferocity pet with someone else providing the debuff to your dps using a worm to provide the debuff. Any rogues in the raid would have to make a similar comparison.

If you compare your dps with a ferocity pet and no armor debuff to your dps using a worm to provide the debuff you are doing yourself a disservice as that is not your real dps loss for using a worm since someone else is in theory providing the debuff when you're not.

There are specific cases where a Worm might be extremely handy, the latest would be Putricide. Specifically against the the oozes and clouds. The faster stacking debuff from the Worm means that it will stack fully in 7 seconds (add a little considering the Worm might just have used it prior to the spawn), and it is nicely ranged. A Fury Warrior might not get the stacks up very fast at all, with knockbacks and waittime on the clouds. The Worm is a considerably superior option for that fight.

While normal mode, in most cases, aren't failing due to too little physical DPS on them, it does help to get them down faster. Heroic, well haven't done that, but I could easily imagine it would be very much more critical there. The more physical classes you bring for this fight the more value the Worm holds.

Since I'm not a heroic raider at this time, I could also imagine LDW adds in P2 could use some sunder effects, and not to forget Thunderstomp would go a way towards evening with a normal Ferocity pet. I could also see the Worm on LDW in P1 to keep the Sunder effect up for the duration, no need to restack and if there are more dedicated melee/hunters on her they would obviously benefit too.

The Worm has merit, so don't discount it entirely, but I am not terribly convinced that it isn't the largest overall DPS loss of the three options for a normal single target situation (consider not only the pet but also the spec).