Raiding with Beast Mastery in 3.3.3 and beyond - Page 27

Ragury · 10/09/09, 10:16 AM

has anybody yet tested the DPS of BM after the last patch? (compared to the dominating MM-dmg)
is after the HARD amor-penetration-nerf MM still this far ahead (@raid-boss-dmg) of a well-geared BM and his devilsaur?

IceyDevil · 10/09/09, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Ragury

has anybody yet tested the DPS of BM after the last patch? (compared to the dominating MM-dmg)
is after the HARD amor-penetration-nerf MM still this far ahead (@raid-boss-dmg) of a well-geared BM and his devilsaur?

I always run BM out of choice, although I cannot completely match your description as I also prefer to use my spirit beast vice a devilsaur.

My DPS went up a decent amount, although the nerf to TBW was also painful. I saw about 200 DPS out of it, which is decent, but not nearly enough. I was roughing around upper 5k/lower 6k range, now I sit around mid 6k in terms of raw DPS. I did notice that swapping out the glyph of bestial wrath for steady shot is now a DPS increase as well, since TBW is now a completely crappy cooldown.

BM is still about 9% damage below my SV spec, and so Blizzard has made relatively zero progress toward closing this gap. This was a PvP change, I believe, as intended, and so we should see few PvE implications from it. One day they may wake up and fix BM, but it won't be today. If your raid needs ferocious inspiration or you simply prefer BM like I do, then go for it. You won't see the same numbers as a MM or SV hunter, though. Not yet.

Qaenyin · 10/11/09, 5:28 AM

Wolverine Bite: This talent is now enabled when the pet lands a critical strike rather than from the target dodging the pet’s attacks. In addition, this talent no longer has a prerequisite.

From 3.3 PTRs.

Anyone had the chance to test this to see just how much of an increase this is? Curious how effective this makes Cunning pets, especially considering Roar of Recovery adding more time out of viper, plus Feeding Frenzy. Might make, say, Chimaera a viable choice? Not sure what the AP coefficient on Froststorm Breath is(likewise the breath attacks Wind Serpents and Dragonhawks get).

IceyDevil · 10/12/09, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by Qaenyin

Wolverine Bite: This talent is now enabled when the pet lands a critical strike rather than from the target dodging the pet’s attacks. In addition, this talent no longer has a prerequisite.

From 3.3 PTRs.

Anyone had the chance to test this to see just how much of an increase this is? Curious how effective this makes Cunning pets, especially considering Roar of Recovery adding more time out of viper, plus Feeding Frenzy. Might make, say, Chimaera a viable choice? Not sure what the AP coefficient on Froststorm Breath is(likewise the breath attacks Wind Serpents and Dragonhawks get).

Froststorm Breath has the highest initial damage by far, assuming they all scale relatively evenly I'm sure it's the best choice. I'm not sure WB is nearly enough to make up for the loss of shark attack, rabid, call of the wild, and even bloodthirsty for self healing. If you take invigoration talents then you can keep up infinite mana during raids, although you could drop those with a cunning pet for something else.

My spreadsheet layout calculates a loss of almost 500 DPS switching from my spirit beast to a chimera, it would be even worse if your current pet is a devilsaur. That's calculating the points taken out of invigoration to put into other talents, but not the new WB change. It seems highly improbable wolverine bite is worth 500 DPS.

ArmeisV · 10/13/09, 3:54 AM

From 3.3.0 Ptr Patch Notes

Avoidance: This talent has been replaced by Culling the Herd. Hunter pets now innately take 90% less damage from area-of-effect abilities like all other class pets. This does not apply to area-of-effect damage caused by other players.

Culling the Herd: This pet talent has replaced the Avoidance talent in the pet trees (Hunter pets now gain that benefit automatically without expenditure of talent points). Culling the Herd increases pet and hunter damage by 1/2/3% for 10 seconds each time the pet deals a critical strike with Claw, Bite, or Smack.

What do you think about this changes?

Iru · 10/13/09, 4:25 AM

So its a personal Ferocious Inspiration buff for non-BM hunters. That leaves two obvious questions: will it stack with FI, and will it stack with any FI replacements, e.g. the Ret pally buff. Regardless of the answers to those questions, it's still not going to close the BM vs non-BM DPS gap, which I assume was the subtext to your question

Qaenyin · 10/13/09, 6:49 AM

Originally Posted by IceyDevil

Froststorm Breath has the highest initial damage by far, assuming they all scale relatively evenly I'm sure it's the best choice. I'm not sure WB is nearly enough to make up for the loss of shark attack, rabid, call of the wild, and even bloodthirsty for self healing. If you take invigoration talents then you can keep up infinite mana during raids, although you could drop those with a cunning pet for something else.

My spreadsheet layout calculates a loss of almost 500 DPS switching from my spirit beast to a chimera, it would be even worse if your current pet is a devilsaur. That's calculating the points taken out of invigoration to put into other talents, but not the new WB change. It seems highly improbable wolverine bite is worth 500 DPS.

For WB to be worth 500 dps it would have to hit for an average of 3500 including crits(7 sec cooldown after Longevity). I agree, probably not happening. Unfortunately I can't seem to find any actual information on how hard it does hit, however. No site I've found lists the attack power coefficient, and I have seen reports of it critting for over 3k even back in TBC, though I don't know how reliable that information is. Pet crit chance is 15%+Cobra Strikes+Focused Fire, it'd probably need to hit for about 2k or something to be competitive. Unlikely, but it'd be good to be sure.

Tsook · 10/13/09, 3:41 PM

The spreadsheet models wolverine bite damage. With the default marks hunter it comes out to 850 or so. That said, I recall seeing 4k crit wolverine bites in Naxx from my friend's chimera, so I'm not 100% certain the spreadsheet models it correctly. It still appears to be better damage than any other single pet ability, though.

IceyDevil · 10/14/09, 4:11 AM

As per culling the herd;
Keep in mind that this a baseline talent replacing avoidance, therein SV and MM hunters will also have it. They will probably be able to keep near 100% uptime, so this change doesn't close the gap any. In fact, since they do more damage to begin with, this change only widens the gap between SV/MM and BM.

I may do some tests tomorrow on a training dummy to see how high my bat can hit WB unbuffed, and add in some AP variables to see how it scales. I'll report back if I can figure anything out.

zakaria · 10/14/09, 6:03 AM

Originally Posted by IceyDevil

As per culling the herd;
Keep in mind that this a baseline talent replacing avoidance, therein SV and MM hunters will also have it. They will probably be able to keep near 100% uptime, so this change doesn't close the gap any. In fact, since they do more damage to begin with, this change only widens the gap between SV/MM and BM.

I may do some tests tomorrow on a training dummy to see how high my bat can hit WB unbuffed, and add in some AP variables to see how it scales. I'll report back if I can figure anything out.

Pets with MM or SV specs can't keep up culling of herd 100% simply becasue these specs lack of critical chance boosters unlike BM, in shandra spreadsheet my wolf fully buffed has 21.42% crit chance againts bosses which is pretty low. on the other hand BM has 4 talents in BM specs and 1 in pet specs orbiting around this new ability (ferocity,frenzy,cobra strike, invigoration and spider's bite) which all of them can keep up mostly your pet on very high crit chance, haste buffed, mana regen for you and 2% dmg modifier to all pet/hunter attacks. This is cleary saying It's BM buff.

ArmeisV · 10/14/09, 6:56 AM

From MMO - Champion

Pet
•Culling the Herd - When your pet's Claw, Bite, or Smack ability deals a critical strike, you and your pet deal 1/2% increased damage for 10 sec.

Culling the Herd lowered to two ranks? Three was too powerful?

Sellath · 10/14/09, 7:57 AM

Originally Posted by ArmeisV

From MMO - Champion

Pet
•Culling the Herd - When your pet's Claw, Bite, or Smack ability deals a critical strike, you and your pet deal 1/2% increased damage for 10 sec.

Culling the Herd lowered to two ranks? Three was too powerful?

It's still 3 points for my wolf of the pre-made. I guess it was just a typo. Before it said (PH) on the tooltip.
I went and did some testing on the PTR and checked if it got implemented, but it didn't procc for me and my wolf after quite a few crits of Bite.
Never saw a buff nor a change in the damage (char info).

KraxisSingular · 10/14/09, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by zakaria

Pets with MM or SV specs can't keep up culling of herd 100% simply becasue these specs lack of critical chance boosters unlike BM, in shandra spreadsheet my wolf fully buffed has 21.42% crit chance againts bosses which is pretty low. on the other hand BM has 4 talents in BM specs and 1 in pet specs orbiting around this new ability (ferocity,frenzy,cobra strike, invigoration and spider's bite) which all of them can keep up mostly your pet on very high crit chance, haste buffed, mana regen for you and 2% dmg modifier to all pet/hunter attacks. This is cleary saying It's BM buff.

The difference between BM and the other spec's pet special crits isn't that great. They have the same frequency in just attacks, and the other specs also have Spider's Bite. So it is only Ferocity and Cobra Strikes that mark BM out in favour of this. Yes it will mean more uptime, but the question is how much more. In 10 seconds a pet can strike with around 8 specials. That should be enough for the buff staying up at very high percentages for around 21% crit. Anecdotal experiences tell me that my pet crits with specials plenty in that time.

IceyDevil · 10/15/09, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by zakaria

Pets with MM or SV specs can't keep up culling of herd 100% simply becasue these specs lack of critical chance boosters unlike BM, in shandra spreadsheet my wolf fully buffed has 21.42% crit chance againts bosses which is pretty low. on the other hand BM has 4 talents in BM specs and 1 in pet specs orbiting around this new ability (ferocity,frenzy,cobra strike, invigoration and spider's bite) which all of them can keep up mostly your pet on very high crit chance, haste buffed, mana regen for you and 2% dmg modifier to all pet/hunter attacks. This is cleary saying It's BM buff.

Assuming your pet isn't focus staved, because MM and SV both crit insane amounts (really, all 3 specs do), it'll use its focus dump every 1.5 seconds for six attacks in nine seconds. One of those six will crit as long as your pet crit is greater than 16.6>, which you say yours is. 100% uptime, given distributed RNG.

Hagen · 10/15/09, 5:12 AM

Pet GCD is 1.25s.