The main thing Tenacity pets bring in terms of DPS, aside from racials, is Thunderstomp (remember to enable and disable it as per encounter of course). I wouldn't go with a spec without it. In fact I wouldn't take Silverback at all. Growl might not pull aggro, but it wastes a pet GCD for a very limited heal, and if it does end up pulling aggro, then you won't hear the end of it. It's just not worth it in my mind. Instead fill out Blood of the Rhino, for this Tenacity DPS spec. The bonus healing and extra Stamina should be worth a great deal more than what little Silverback can provide. Thinking JoL and other incidental heals.
Charge vs Boar's Speed... personal preferance I guess. But as BM with Longevity, 17.5 seconds doesn't seem all that long between Charges.

For me, the spreadsheet shows using a worm is a 830 dps loss over using a devilsaur. (Also, webstats confirm a general 800+ dps loss for me when using a worm, but it benefits the raid so I do it.) A rogue with 4 pc T10 will actually lose much less dps than I would. If your rogue is in 4 pc T10, they just don't want to lose any dps on the meters if they're whining about dps loss. As always, each person should check their own loss for providing the armor debuff (or any other debuff for that matter). A warrior will in most cases loss the least dps for providing the armor debuff. (When a warrior is available of course.)

Remember most BM hunters will have 3/3 Longevity and the cooldown on the ability will be 7 seconds and you won't need to turn off the focus dump as BM. Also, with the amount of magic damage floating around an AP debuff may not be that great compared to a dps loss. There are some fights where the dps loss wouldn't be worth it at all. Take the Valithria Dreamwalker encounter - the adds are spread out and you want them dead as quick as possible, especially the blazing skeletons and the suppressors who aren't affected by an AP debuff. And there may be fights where for your group, any dps loss would make you hit the enrage timer and be bad.

So while a section showing the utility various pets can bring to the raid, it has to be balanced with the dps loss to the hunter (vs another class handing the debuff). And also, it needs to be balanced against whether the using that pet would benefit the raid overall.

@DeavanSH

When you checked the spreadsheet, did you remember to compare the worm to a buff setting without sunder/expose armor up? Because thats the whole idea, that a minimal dps loss for switching a wolf to a worm (as I am offspec MM I won't be getting a devilsaur as long as we only have 5 stable spots) is worth it WHEN you don't have a warrior applying sunder. Also, I believe, you need a certain amount of ArP for it to be worthwhile - I haven't checked specifically how ArP amount affects the worth of sunder armor - but if I have grasped the mechanics correctly Sunder becomes more valuable the more armor you penetrate - because it becomes a proportionally higher amount of the remaining damage reduction.

We can quickly agree that if a warrior is present, its his/her job to sunder - no question - just as it is our job to trap, MD and kite (along with a few other classes).

The thought I had - which the others correctly interpreted - was to make note of the utility of BM (or hunters in general in regards to non exotic pets) to bring debuffs that can be useful when certain classes are missing - or at a lower dps loss than other classes (sunder is again the one I specifically examined). Not to say that they are a dps gain - but to say that at a slight loss of personal dps we can bring X, Y and Z which can be useful if the raid gain is greater than our personal loss. I know a lot of people are referred to EJ for more class info, and it is useful info to know as a hunter (BM or otherwise, but especially as BM with the 4 more points giving us a more versatile pet spec).


As to the thought at hand, I have to apologize for not doing anything myself, RL happened - I hope I will get back to doings omething during the general closing during the easter days.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. My number is based on someone in the raid providing the armor debuff. And my point was a rogue in 4 pc T10 will lose a lot less dps than a BM using a worm.

Yes, sunder does become more valuable. Also ArP become more valuable as you have more of it. At a certain amount of ArP using Hearty Rhino as well as the elixirs of Mighty Thoughts and Armor Piercing become dps increases. At least they do until you hit 100% ArP from gear and gems.

And I agree that this is useful information, its just that when the class people usually associate with the debuff isn't around, it doesn't necessarily mean a hunter's pet is the next best way to provide the debuff. Any information presented should include all possible ways to get the debuff and things that might affect which person in the raid should provide the debuff - again using the example of a rogue in 4pc T10 might be the best choice for the armor debuff if no warrior is present. And if no rogues in the raid have 4pc T10, it could very well be a worm is the best way to provide this debuff.

Thanks for the reminder on Longevity, like I said I was using the pet as MM so ran into the cooldown issue. And yes, the AP debuff isn't useful all that often. Most hard-hitting bosses are designed with the assumption that an AP debuff is up though, and tanking them without it is generally asking for trouble - the effect of the small seeming AP debuff on a boss is very very noticeable from incoming damage on a tank. I wouldn't worry about it on Valithria either, but in my case it was either I bring a pet to do it, or a warlock uses CoW instead of CoE/CoA, since we really did need it to keep the tanks alive on Algalon 10 (this was before paladins were given the current Vindication). I assume any abilities listed in the list would only be used as a last resort, since all of the debuffs pets can provide are more conveniently provided by other classes. The list would just tell you what options you have, and what their pros and cons are.

Unless I am misunderstadning you (again) then there is no question you will see a large dps loss with going with a worm - as it doesn't bring the dps gain from sunder if it is already provided. It goes without saying that swithing to a lower dps pet without a gain from it will result in drastically lower dps - on the order of the number you are describing - the whole idea hinges on providing a raid benefit buff that isn't covered by someone else - or would be a bigger loss (not necessarily dps loss) to be covered by someone else (i.e. the resto druid providing Faerie Fire or somesuch)

Seeing as it isn't provided switching a wolf to a worm (I haven't modelled a devilsaur as I said) will be a very minor personal dps loss (or rather a pet dps loss and a personal gain with a net loss of a very small amount).
This small loss is less than a rogue will lose having to keep up expose armor according to the rogues I've talked to (admittedly its only very few, but they agreed that they will lose more dps than my overall loss which is rougly a 100 dps loss).
I am not 25 man geared and I am definately not BiS - but neither will most hunters that can use the information be.


Edit: had 25-man geared and BiS reversed in my sentence logic

Ok, you have missed something. a rogue using 4pc T10 loses a lot less dps than a rogue without 4pc T10 loses. Their 4pc bonus gives them a lot of free combo points.

Without a 4pc T10 rogue, a BM loses less dps than a rogue to provide the armor debuff.
If you have a 4pc T10 rogue, the rogue loses less dps than the BM hunter to provide the armor debuff.

If your rogues have 4pc T10, let them try to keep up the armor debuff and see how much dps they lose..

Is the 100 DPS loss for yourself when using a worm as compared to using a ferocity pet with someone else providing the armor debuff? That is the comparison you should be making. My 800+ dps loss is based on me having to use a worm instead of someone else providing the armor debuff and me using a devilsaur.

If I compare devilsaur with no armor debuff against using a worm, then yes there is a much smaller dps loss. I sincerely doubt that you (plus your pet combined) only lose 100 dps when switching to a worm if someone else is providing the armor debuff.

Edit: Lilbitters in the next reply has the issue pretty much correct except for the fact that a worm is exotic and therefore BM only.

Worms are exotic pets and can only be brought by a BM hunter. Your list has MM/SV with a worm as an option and that isn't valid.

You are correct, of course. I believe the idea of an MM hunter using a pet with a debuff was originally brought up in relation to using a Carrion Bird for its AP debuff, which is a non-exotic pet. There are several different scenarios being discussed here, and Lilbitters' post does get them a bit mixed up. S/he did do a good job of laying out the possibilities if you look only at the part regarding BM hunters.

RL intervened for me as well this weekend, however I think this will be a useful addition to the OP and I will write it up when I have the opportunity -- and yes, a discussion of the raid comp where using a lower-dps pet for its debuff would be the best solution should be part of it.

We are cursed with only 1 rogue who currently doesn't have 4t10 bonus.

You say I should be comparing a ferocity pet and someone else providing the debuff with a worm - that is the wrong test as the question isn't whether bringing a worm will free up more dps for someone else from something they were already doing.

The situation lifted to the theoretical is;

The raid is currently without major armor debuff, there is a rogue and a BM hunter in the raid.
There are 2 ways to get the major armor debuff on the bosses - the BM hunter switches to a worm from a ferocity pet (wolf or devilsaur, its a minor difference favoring the devilsaur I'm guessing).
If the BM hunter switches the comparison is a) Ferocity pet without debuff and b) Worm with debuff (provided by the worm)
If the rogue switches its a) the rogue with expose armor kept up 100% and b) the rogue without expose armor kept up.

The delta between a and b in both cases is how much each looses to keep up the debuff which isn't otherwise up - the lesser of these points to the one that should be keeping it up.

The comparison you are suggesting will always favor someone else keeping up the debuff - always - because you wil never gain any benefit whatsoever from dropping a dps benefit for a debuff that will be there regardless

The comparison I think you are suggesting is to compare the hunters dps with a) a ferocity pet and the debuff by someone else with the rogues dps b) without keeping up expose armor and dps'ing fully.
That comparison will show us which class gains the most from having someone else keep it up - and that could be a valid way of looking at it if there was only those 2 characters involved - but since the debuff benefits all the physical dps - including tanks - this comparison would lose you raid benefit while just looking at who gains the most.

the interesting thing is, not who gains the most by not providing the debuff, but who loses the least by providing it - compared to it not being there - regardless one of us is going to lose dps to keep it up - and the math shows that its the BM hunter + worm that loses the least, meaning the raid delta will be greater - raiding and utility isn't about personal performance but raid performance after all since all physical classes gain from the debuff.

EDIT:
Regarding Lilbitters list, 1 and 2 are not interesting, as this is the BM raiding thread, I will tend to assume that the hunter will be specced BM regardless of who brings the major armor debuff.

There are specific cases where a Worm might be extremely handy, the latest would be Putricide. Specifically against the the oozes and clouds. The faster stacking debuff from the Worm means that it will stack fully in 7 seconds (add a little considering the Worm might just have used it prior to the spawn), and it is nicely ranged. A Fury Warrior might not get the stacks up very fast at all, with knockbacks and waittime on the clouds. The Worm is a considerably superior option for that fight.

While normal mode, in most cases, aren't failing due to too little physical DPS on them, it does help to get them down faster. Heroic, well haven't done that, but I could easily imagine it would be very much more critical there. The more physical classes you bring for this fight the more value the Worm holds.

Since I'm not a heroic raider at this time, I could also imagine LDW adds in P2 could use some sunder effects, and not to forget Thunderstomp would go a way towards evening with a normal Ferocity pet. I could also see the Worm on LDW in P1 to keep the Sunder effect up for the duration, no need to restack and if there are more dedicated melee/hunters on her they would obviously benefit too.

The Worm has merit, so don't discount it entirely, but I am not terribly convinced that it isn't the largest overall DPS loss of the three options for a normal single target situation (consider not only the pet but also the spec).