Raiding with Beast Mastery in 3.3.3 and beyond - Page 37

MizarAlcor · 05/18/10, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

Steadyshot is definitely normalized for weapon speed in all respects - other attacks are not, but steady is pretty unique in being a perfectly normalized attack - it will scale with weapon and ammo DPS, but no other characteristics of a weapon (well stats and procs too obviously, but speed won't matter).

To clarify what has been said previously, I dug up the formulas for different shots that I had saved up. I forgot which forum or site I got this from and I copied the formulas from the early days of Wotlk, so the exact accuracy might be doubted.

The formulas for :
- SS = (2.8/Speed)*MaxDmg + 0.1*AP + 252 + Ammo

- CS = 1.25*(MaxDmg + (AP /14)*Speed + Ammo + Scope)
- AiS = MaxDmg + 2.8*(AP/14) + Ammo + Scope + 408
- Auto = MaxDmg + (AP/14)*Speed + Ammo + Scope

As such, it is pretty clear how Steady is normalized while the other shots scale with speed.

alienangel · 05/19/10, 1:11 AM

Originally Posted by KraxisSingular

My bold.
Technically not true since you lose PS damage from Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot. But in terms of total Steady damage it is most certainly just as good any any other 264 weapon (with the reservations of stats, but as noted it isn't even that bad).

You are completely correct, sorry, I shouldn't have said it as if total PS damage will be the same for a particular weapon DPS regardless of weapon speed - when going from a lower dps slow weapon to a higher dps fast weapon though, the gain from steady shot PS procs will likely outweigh the loss from aimed/chimera procs. For example, Felglacier Bolter was usually suggested as an upgrade to Rowan's when I tried to argue it, and FB's instants barely hit any harder than Rowans, since it only has slightly higher bottom end and a higher ammo dps multipler, but the same RAP multiplier - Rowan's steadyshots hit a lot harder though.

Then again whenever I test in the sheet, I usually check against my own high-arp gear, which probably biases in favour of steady shot more than is fair for the fresh 80s that most often ask about the gun.

fearstalker · 05/19/10, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

The standard summary is:
- 264 quality DPS, which scales your autoshot, steady shot, and wild quiver (and to a lesser extent piercing shots) DPS, every bit as well as any other 264 weapon
- dramatically higher 2pcT10 uptime, which affects all damage you and your pet do - particularly good for BM since the pet component matters more, and the uptime increase appears to be amplified by serpent's switftness
- hitrating is useful; stats on ranged slot always fairly minor anyway so wearing tank stats in the slot isn't a massive loss
- lower dps from instants than slower 264s have, but potentially higher than sub-264 weapons - mostly hurts MM, since Chim/Aimed/Silencing all affected, while Explosive, Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, and Arcane in the other specs aren't affected by weapon damage
- wild quiver unaffected for fast speed: procs are of lower magnitude, but are more frequent
- more frequent GfTT procs, but shouldn't really matter for level 80 hunters (fast weapons were a huge buff for hunters when 2.0 came out though just because of GfTT and Wind Serpents)
- more frequent Imp AotH procs
- benefits from dwarf racial, which only one other 264 does
- all the above mean that if you have 2pcT10, the weapon is solidly competitive with (or better than) 251 ICC weapons as MM and SV, and competitive with (or better than) 264 weapons for BM, for PvE - PvP maybe you prefer a slower weapon, I don't know.

I'd add one more, if you happen to be a BM goblin engineer, then there is another plus. (But Zod's is overall close enough if you have it and are a gnomish engineer).

The other thing that I have been told to do previously in my case, and that's been soundly refuted by the spreadsheet, is go get the PVP gun for PVE if I really wanted a gun.

Nooska · 05/20/10, 6:25 AM

@Rosamonde

With Rowan's creeping up in disucssions several tiems and places (not all here) I think it would be an idea to mention it in the first post - nothing fancy just a general "yes it is a (very) good ranged weapon for beastmaster hunters" in some way or form. I seem to remember seeing this discussed before this instance of it - could possibly also negate some of the "huntard, lol" comments if its staed in teh first post of the guide on this site (I have yet to come across anyone that actually disputes the validity of presented information here at EJ)

ceelion22 · 05/22/10, 8:27 AM

Well my gear isnt the greatest but It should still show the difference I saw in a movement (Helter Skelter) fight and a non-movement (patchwerk) fight. Also I'm not sure why but it's giving me different numbers than when I tested it before (more dps now when not and less now when not). Although there is an enormous possibility that I messed up.

Specs used:
AS
The World of Warcraft Armory

No AS
The World of Warcraft Armory

Used Simulationcraft:

With Aimed Shot (Patchwerk): 8520dps
Without AS (Patchwerk): 8513dps
Change: +7dps

With AS (Helter Skelter): 6981dps
w/o AS (Helter Skelter): 6889dps
Change: +92dps

There is a margin of error, but even still almost 100dps increase when you use AS in a movement heavy fight and in ICC that 100dps might make a difference.

Nooska · 05/22/10, 9:43 AM

@Ceelion

Whats your crit rate? Becuase with the points coming out of Imp Tracking and adding not only AiS, but another point in mortal shots, that 6% more damage from your crits is, imo, a more likely explanation for a difference of a total of 100 dps - depending on your crit rate.

To do a test of validity you need to change only the point in AiS, and you need to test several different talents to take it out of any and all possible talents that could logically stand to lose a bit of dps without loosing more (for instance cobra shots if you have a high crit rate)
Also what pet have you used for the tests and what buffs?
Cobra Shots lose some value as a talent if your pet has it up in excess time because of only 1 ability to crit on (the wolf only has 1 for instance) and if you refrest cobra shots before its used you are "spending too much" in the talent.

ceelion22 · 05/23/10, 6:24 AM

Well, this is where me not being as good as I should be comes into play. I am using a wolf as a temp pet until I can grab a T-Rex and level it. My crit is 50% unbuffed.

Buffs used in the sim were default to eliminate variables. I also never thought about the crit making the difference.

The thing I like about AiS is it's instant, so you can cast it on the run. I haven't been through all of ICC, but from what the videos show is a lot of moving and instants mean your doing more damage while moving.

I'm behind a lot in gear, pets and etc. because I had a vacation and than my account ran out, so my tests maybe invalid to anyone that has better gear/the right pet.

Nooska · 05/24/10, 5:05 AM

The crit rate I asked for isn't what shows up on your character sheet ingame, but what your crit rate was for the purpose of the test (i.e. what the actual crit rate in the test was).
You say "default buffs" what are those?
Personally I am not a big fan of simming fights to valuate differences because a sim won't give the same result everytime, I personally prefer the spreadsheet because it will give the same result for anyone who plugs in teh same premises. I am aware that the spreadsheet will not accurately model a movement fight, but a standstill fight still showed a gain for you. If a standstill fight has a result that is very close to a non AiS it goes without saying that a movement fight will have an additional gain from it. I am asking for the info so I and/or someone else (if you don't do it of course) can (re)do the testing and verify or negate the results you posted. The idea is indeed logical, but what seems logical and what actually is more output is not always the same. Additionally, did you use Multishot in place of the AiS in the non-AiS build? MS only requires you to stand still long enough to push the button - something that I personally have never found a problem with - even on a fight such as Heigan.

ceelion22 · 05/24/10, 7:48 AM

Originally Posted by Nooska

The crit rate I asked for isn't what shows up on your character sheet ingame, but what your crit rate was for the purpose of the test (i.e. what the actual crit rate in the test was).
You say "default buffs" what are those?
Personally I am not a big fan of simming fights to valuate differences because a sim won't give the same result everytime, I personally prefer the spreadsheet because it will give the same result for anyone who plugs in teh same premises. I am aware that the spreadsheet will not accurately model a movement fight, but a standstill fight still showed a gain for you. If a standstill fight has a result that is very close to a non AiS it goes without saying that a movement fight will have an additional gain from it. I am asking for the info so I and/or someone else (if you don't do it of course) can (re)do the testing and verify or negate the results you posted. The idea is indeed logical, but what seems logical and what actually is more output is not always the same. Additionally, did you use Multishot in place of the AiS in the non-AiS build? MS only requires you to stand still long enough to push the button - something that I personally have never found a problem with - even on a fight such as Heigan.

Ya kinda new to the EJ scene and not used to proving theories beyond just to myself. Ms was not fired in the sim of the no AiS build. If you could direct me to a proper resource to test this I would gladly put my best attempt at it.

The buffs not used were Focus Magic and Heroic Presence (I'm Horde).
All other buffs, and all debuffs were used.

alienangel · 05/24/10, 5:47 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

Personally I am not a big fan of simming fights to valuate differences because a sim won't give the same result everytime, I personally prefer the spreadsheet because it will give the same result for anyone who plugs in teh same premises.

Well the sims in question here (from simulationCraft) generally aggregate results over several thousand iterations - while the spreadsheet will give everyone the same values with the same settings (if randomize procs isn't on), its estimate is almost certainly less accurate. Assuming the formulae are correct and enough iterations are used, the sim has to be more accurate simply because it's calculating the whole fight just like WoW would, and averaging it over the next several thousand times you could kill the boss - the problem in both cases is picking fight conditions and decision rules for each GCD to model the fight durations you care about in game, and the type of the fight (simcraft does support modelling fights that aren't tank and spank, which I think is what ceelion22 here is discussing, while the spreadsheet does not).

Based on her post, the conclusion seems strongly in favour of keeping Aimed Shot, simply because it models as significantly better on the helter-skelter fights (i.e. fights with movement) - the difference is calculated over hopefully a large number of iterations (10,000 or so), so it's not really affected by lucky crits or lucky procs or varying buffs/debuffs that might be valid criticisms if the comparison were made over WoL reports instead of SimCraft runs.

Nooska · 05/25/10, 7:14 AM

At that number of iterations I definately agree that those numbers will be better at determining the difference. So, back to my original "criticisms" - crit rates influence on the difference due to one more point in MS in the AiS build, I still think the jury is out. I would love to have another instant and a big one at that, but I still think we need to look at the scenario where only the AiS point is moved to eliminate the 1 point in mortal shots from being the changer rather than AiS itself. Where that point is to come from I'm not 100% certain, Imp. Tracking is the obvious choice as we only have those 5 points in the survival normally, but I wonder if this is actually the best place to take it from, I'm more in the lines of Cobra Shot for 2/3 CS instead of 3/3 CS - as I talked about earlier in this thread CS becomes worth less per point the more crit we have because we proc it more often and thus are more likely to have it go to waste.

Rosamonde · 06/16/10, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Nooska

@Rosamonde

With Rowan's creeping up in disucssions several tiems and places (not all here) I think it would be an idea to mention it in the first post - nothing fancy just a general "yes it is a (very) good ranged weapon for beastmaster hunters" in some way or form. I seem to remember seeing this discussed before this instance of it - could possibly also negate some of the "huntard, lol" comments if its staed in teh first post of the guide on this site (I have yet to come across anyone that actually disputes the validity of presented information here at EJ)

Sorry I didn't get to this earlier -- I have added it to the OP.

ceelion22 · 06/23/10, 6:42 AM

I ran some talent changes and also noticed that Invigoration was giving me heeps of DPS over Longevity. Would anyone know why this is?

mako · 06/23/10, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by ceelion22

I ran some talent changes and also noticed that Invigoration was giving me heeps of DPS over Longevity. Would anyone know why this is?

It probably prevents you from needing to use AotV with the way you're set up. Make sure you have key buffs like JoW enabled before you try to calculate the value of mana talents.

ceelion22 · 06/25/10, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by mako

It probably prevents you from needing to use AotV with the way you're set up. Make sure you have key buffs like JoW enabled before you try to calculate the value of mana talents.

Just tested again and even with all raid buffs activated it still showed a ~250dps increase with 2 points in Invigoration. The other thing I noticed was simply taking one point out of Longevity was giving a dps increase. Is this a bug or is there math behind this?