I hate browser caches not retaining form data...

Well I'll try to type it again:

I agree that Hawk glyph fits the BM more than the SrS glyph.

But My intuition says that increasing gear would benefit autoshot, and thus hawk glyph more than it would benefit steadyshot and thus SrS glyph (2 more steadies in 105 seconds)


Steady shot: (Weapon damage + RAP *0.1 + 252) * 1,1 (the glyph)
Autoshot: Weapon damage + Ammo dps * weapon speed + RAP / 14 * weapon speed

Both shots benefit equally from weapon damage upgrades (well steady glyph gives steady a slight advantage here)
For all other gear upgrades the only thing that matters is the factual RAP.

If you gain 1000 RAP from gear upgrades other than ranged weapon

Steady shot gains: 1000 * 0.1 * 1.1 = 110 damage
Autoshot gains 1000 / 14 * 2,9 (Envoy / Giants Bane) = 207 damage

Autoshot gains 88% more from RAP increases than steady shot while Steady gains 10% more from ranged weapon upgrades than autoshot. Since the larger part of our damage comes from RAP, rather than weapon damage, Autoshot wins on this count. Not that this is very important though.


The question of which glyph is generally better (and which way they scale comparatively) requires us to see what the difference is between them

SrS glyph allows 2 more steadies in a timeframe of 105 seconds.
Hawk glyph adds additional 6% haste to our autoshots (as everything else is already capped - and we aren't looking at volley)

As a beastmaster hunter we have the following modifers:

I will work with a 2.9 weapon speed from envoy of mortality or giant's bane from ulduar. Siren's Call has 2.8 speed, but the difference is negligable.
I will also use my own hasterating which doesn't seem excessive either way; I have 336 hasterating, translating to roughly 10% haste at 32.79 rating per haste rating point.

Weapon speed: 2.9
15 % Haste from quiver / autoshot ability
20 % Haste from Serpents Swiftness
10 % Haste from gear
15 % Haste from Improved Aspect of the Hawk
--
60 % Haste total.

at weapon speed 2.9 with 60% additional haste (60% more shots fired in the same amount of time) I get 2.9 / 1.6 = 1.81 as the shot speed.
This is our basis for comparison as this is without the hawk glyph.

At 1.81 speed we fire 58 autoshots during the 105 seconds we use as a frame.

Adding an additional 6% haste results in a speed of 2.9 / 1.66 = 1.75 (1.7498..) for each autoshot.
With this speed increase we fire 60 autoshots in the same 105 seconds.

To check the gear haste I will do 3 additional calculations here: 0% gear haste, 5% gear haste and 15% gear haste to see the trend:

0 % gear haste : 54 / 56 autoshots
5 % gear haste : 56 / 58 autoshots
10 % gear haste: 58 / 60 autoshots
15 % gear haste : 59 / 61 autoshots

Thus; we have the choice of 2 additional steadies or 2 additional autoshots in 105 seconds between these glyphs.
(the 15% gear haste was almost 60/62 but cut due to rounding to 2 digits before calculating the amount of shots fired)

Unless I'm mistaken Autoshot wins out over steadi except at exremely low gear levels.
I have calculated the uptime of Quick Shots to 100% for this purpose as it is my intuitive understanding that QS will reproc off itself; it lasts 12 seconds and I have 1,24 shots per second = 14 shots per QS proc. QS has a 10% proc chance, so it should reproc during these 14 shots. (Caveat; this is for napkin math)

I assume the SrS glyph showing slightly better than the hawk is due to the actual chance of QS to proc and reproc (my spreadsheet shows a typical average uptime of 57.76%)

Well, the point is not whether BM hunters gain as much from Glyph of the Hawk as other hunters do; the point is whether BM hunters gain more from Glyph of the Hawk than they do from other glyphs. We may gain less from the glyph than other hunters do, but it is still one of our 3 (or 4) best glyphs.

I get slightly different results using my 53-18-0 build which I plan on keeping. I use the beastial,steady, and hawk glyphs as well.

5484 Devilsaur
5465 Wolf
5424 Raptor
5368 Core Hound
5365 Spirit Beast
5362 Cat
5351 Moth
5349 Wasp
5295 Silithid
5293 Tallstrider
5286 Carrion Bird
5235 Hyena

Cats rank higher for me. My 3 main pets are a Devilsaur, a Wolf, and a Cat. The wolf will be my main raiding pet in the early progression through Ulduar but the cat will probably also see some use. The devilsaur is just too big and clunky.

The more attack power you have, the higher the moth will be for you. I did some checking in the spreadsheet, however, and found that the moth does not scale as well as I had hoped -- at least not in the current PTR build as reflected in v.86d. The moth closes the gap with the wolf as attack power increases, but it would take a ridiculous amount for it to actually catch up.

Using my current gear, I hand adjusted the amount of AP in the spreasheet. Here is the result of a comparison between moths and wolves (dps is combined hunter and pet):

GEAR ----------- Wolf ---- Moth --- Difference
current gear --- 6068 --- 5952 --- 116
+1000 AP ------ 6559 --- 6451 --- 108
+2000 AP ------ 7026 --- 6926 --- 100
+3000 AP ------ 7504 --- 7414 --- 90
+10,000 AP ---- 10828 -- 10860 --- 32
+15,000 AP ---- 13256 -- 13267 --- -11
+20,000 AP ---- 15651 -- 15704 --- -53

I would need to get 15,000 additional attack power for the moth to scale ahead of the wolf, so unless the specials are changed, it doesn't look like the moth will become the pet of choice for damage in this expansion.

I should clarify that "+10,000 AP" means 10K on top of what I already have raid-buffed in near-BiS (spreadsheet gives me 7000 or so with trinket procs, etc), not 10K total AP. This would be more in the neighborhood of 22,000 AP (7000 + 15,000) before the moth could overtake the wolf under current PTR conditions. I think the numbers are far higher than what could be achieved in Wrath.

PS I would love to use a moth as my raiding pet!

While the numbers are pretty academic they are nice to know.

You didn't happen to try out a Raptor and/or Devilsaur *shudder* with these numbers? I would assume they would scale even better than the Moth.

The extra crit, haste and armor penetration you would have with that much better gear would increase the value of the wolf AP buff on the hunter so likely even in that gear the wolf would be ahead.

@ Namarus

My calculations do not take crit rate into account that is true. This is due to a couple of things.
The first is that crit rate is highly rng dependant, and we are looking at a realatively low number of shots.
The second is that crit rate is highly variable and therefor even more difficult to incorporate into anything meaningful here.
Thirdly most BM builds don't have 30% increased crit damage to steady shots - most only spend 2 points in Mortal Shots together with 3 in Careful Aim to unlock GftT, so its not such a big difference.
Fourth and lastly, it is 2 shots auto or 2 shots steady - crit rate won't figure in except as 0 / 50 / 100% in this napkin size. Since crit rate is the same for both autoshots and steadies, the worst case scenatio for autoshots and Hawk glyph would be 100% crit for the 2 shots:

As this was an exercise in scaling I will use the same 1000 ap gain as I listed in my original post:

Steady gained 110 damage this crits for both shots (worst case scenario for autoshor / best case for steady)


Steady shot crit damage gain from 1k ap gain with 2/5 MS = 110 * 2 * 1.12 *1.03 = 254 damage
Steady shot crit damage gain from 1k ap gain with 5/5 MS = 110 * 2 * 1.3 * 1.03 = 295
Autoshot Crits from the 1k ap gain = 207 * 2 * 1.03 = 426 damage

So even at 100% crit rate Autoshot benefits more from ap gain than steady shot both with 2/5 MS and with 5/5 MS. Since the difference we are looking at is Hawk glyph versus Serpent Sting Glyph and both provide 2 extra shots over 105 seconds, Hawk wins on scaling as the 2 extra autoshots will gain more damage than the 2 steadies regardless of crit rate with an increase in AP.

OK, I took a look at the Devilsaur vs the Wolf as well. The Devilsaur is already a bit above the Wolf, but you can see how it pulls away with more AP. Bear in mind that +1000, +1500, etc means *in addition* to my current gear, without consideration of any other stats I would be acquiring along with better gear that would make the wolf's contribution to the hunter's AP more valuable. (thanks Selmarix)

GEAR ----------- Wolf ---- Devilsaur --- Difference
current gear --- 6068 --- 6085 -------- 17
+1000 AP ------ 6546 --- 6582 -------- 36
+1500 AP ------ 6786 --- 6828 -------- 42
+2000 AP ------ 7026 --- 7077 -------- 51
+2500 AP ------ 7266 --- 7326 -------- 60
+3000 AP ------ 7504 --- 7574 -------- 70

Now, I am comparing the Wolf to the Devilsaur, hand adjusting AP and also adding 1% crit (46 hit rating) per 500 AP.

GEAR -------------------- Wolf ---- Devilsaur --- Difference
current gear ------------ 6068 --- 6085 -------- 17
+1000 AP/92 crit ------- 6604 --- 6640 -------- 36
+1500 AP/138 crit ------ 6877 --- 6921 -------- 44
+2000 AP/184 crit ------ 7153 --- 7202 -------- 49
+2500 AP/230 crit ------ 7430 --- 7488 -------- 58
+3000 AP/276 crit ------ 7710 --- 7776 -------- 66

EDIT: Redid second table to correct Devilsaur numbers.

Taking additional crit into consideration (and I may have been too conservative on how much I added) the gap between the Devilsaur and Wolf does not widen quite so fast. Additional haste and armor pen on better gear should increase the value of the AP wolves give to the hunter slightly more, keeping wolves as a smaller, quieter alternative to devilsaurs.

Good news for dog lovers and dino haters everywhere.

Question regarding pets that I haven't seen answered anywhere, at least in this thread:

I know that Ferocity pets are better straight-up DPS than Cunning pets. However, what I haven't seen modeled here (as least as far as I can tell) are the effects from Roar of Recovery. Specifically, it would seem to me that at least some of the straight DPS loss from using a Cunning pet would be made up for by the fact that if you use RoR, you don't need to use Viper as much. And not having to use Viper much is obviously a DPS increase.

The other reason I bring this up is that RoR is having its cooldown reduced to 3 mins in 3.1, which means fully talented, it will have a CD of 2.1 minutes. Now, to me, getting 30% of my mana back every 2 mins seem pretty powerful. For hunters not having mana issues I guess this is a non-issue, but at least for me (especially since I only do 10man raids and don't have access to all the extra buffs you get from 25s), mana is still an issue.

So has any modeling been done regarding RoR before, or especially recently taking into consideration the 3.1 changes?

RoR definately seems like a good investment as full BM if mana is an issue - its the reintroduction of the mana pot - except its better because its mana over time meaning no less chance mana will be wasted.

For DPS with a cunning pet I would say something like this: Pet Calculator - Wowhead would be my choice. This setup even has your pet doing a constant 80% movement increase.

@ Spreadsheet vs pet dps

No, the spreadhseet doesn't model dps quite as effectively as we can make it as BM.
Another example is that the psreadsheet has your KC going off every 60 seconds and your BW going off every 72 seconds. In reality you get much more from delaying KC 12 seconds every time and setting it off with BW (I have these 2 macroed together with an on use trinket if I have one).

KC without BW: 1.6 * damage from special (1.4, 1.2)
BW without KC: 1.5 * damage from specials (and everything else)
KC with BW: 1.5 * KC (1.6, 1.4, 1.2) = 2.4, 2.1, 1.8 * damage

In a cycle where you pop each on every cooldwon you get the first one with a BW, and the next 4 without, and then the cooldowns realign.

KC on CD: (2.4 + 2.1 + 1.8) * 1 + (1.6 + 1.4 + 1.2) * 4 = 23,1

KC with BW: (2.4 + 2.1 + 1.8) * 4 = 25,2

So even losing 1 full KC over the course of 5 minutes, you come out with more damage done by the multipliers (yes this is very napkin math)