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Old 04/13/09, 4:32 PM   #91
Mikari
Banned
 
Moo
Dwarf Priest
 
Bloodhoof
Originally Posted by Brughe View Post
This is very similar to what I used as BM pre- (and briefly post-) nerf. It has another variant that I have not seen mentioned in this thread. If it has been, I apologize.

With my gear and using Shandara's pre-loaded 25-man raid buffs, I've found that the spreadsheet can produce an acceptable, and sometimes even advantageous, variant in the form of a 54/11/6 spec: You shove one of those points in Survival Instincts over to Invigoration. I suppose this depends on what level of mana regen your raid can provide. Your mileage may vary.
I just ran a 54/11/6 build through simcraft comparing against a 53/13/05 and 53/11/07 I get the following results.

54/11/6 - 6115 DPS
53/13/5 - 6103 DPS
53/11/7 - 6086 DPS

I wonder who we contact to get the higher dps spec included.

[Edit]

Sorry I tried the wrong spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft gives 6128 DPS.

Last edited by Mikari : 04/13/09 at 4:39 PM.

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Old 04/14/09, 12:49 AM   #92
Rosamonde
Piston Honda
 
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Human Hunter
 
Argent Dawn
Originally Posted by Mikari View Post
I just ran a 54/11/6 build through simcraft comparing against a 53/13/05 and 53/11/07 I get the following results.

54/11/6 - 6115 DPS
53/13/5 - 6103 DPS
53/11/7 - 6086 DPS

I wonder who we contact to get the higher dps spec included.

[Edit]

Sorry I tried the wrong spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft gives 6128 DPS.
What raid composition are you using where a point in Invigoration is better than Survival Instincts? My guild runs with a ret pally and I can hardly get my mana below 70% unless he dies, so I have not found it useful personally.


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Old 04/14/09, 6:43 AM   #93
Mikari
Banned
 
Moo
Dwarf Priest
 
Bloodhoof
Originally Posted by Rosamonde View Post
What raid composition are you using where a point in Invigoration is better than Survival Instincts? My guild runs with a ret pally and I can hardly get my mana below 70% unless he dies, so I have not found it useful personally.
I just edited the Hunter BM file used for SampleOutputPTR - simulationcraft - Google Code and changed the spec, it does take into account JoW, though it is over a 5 min duration which most current boss fights aren't so I'm wondering if that's what makes the difference.

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Old 04/14/09, 12:30 PM   #94
Rosamonde
Piston Honda
 
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Human Hunter
 
Argent Dawn
The idea with the raiding spec section in the original post wasn't to come up with a "cookie cutter" spec, but to show a base spec with variables that each hunter would choose from to best fit his/her individual gear and raid situation. I have both 2/2 Survival Instincts and 4/5 Mortal Shots listed as options -- the spreadsheet DPS for taking either is so close that for many it is a matter of personal preference.

I debated with myself over whether to include points in Invigoration as another option. In the end I did not include it for several reasons: a) I never have any mana problems in a full raid buff situation; b) I had not seen any evidence that Invigoration provided enough mana to make it worth the points, either from personal experience, spreadsheet modeling, or testing.

Now that 3.1 is being released, we can see for ourselves whether the changes to Judgment of Wisdom and mana regen in general are going to put us into mana conservation mode, and if they do, whether having Invigoration will make the difference. Since Mikari's Simcraft numbers show Invigoration making a difference, I'll add that as an option to the first post. My understanding of Simcraft is that DPS numbers can vary each time you run it, to simulate the RNG in a given fight, as opposed to the spreadsheet, which tries to even out the RNG through averaging. Therefore, given the very close margin between using Invigoration VS Mortal Shots in the Simcraft results Mikari posted, I don't think we can declare Invigoration as the top DPS Talent over either Mortal Shots or Survival Instincts at this point -- but it does look like a viable option for those with a mana shortage.


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Old 04/14/09, 1:10 PM   #95
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
On invigoration:

I agree fully with Rosamonde on its use in a fully buffed 25 man environment, it isn't needed.

I did run with it for a while as our mana regen was uncertain from raid to raid apart from replenishment - with only 2 paladins in the raid group JoW was no certainty, and neither was a BoW in its stead as BoK would be the first choice for dps (BoW doesn't seem to regenerate enough to be worthwhile)

To return to invigorations, 2/2 gives you back about 100 mana every time your pet crits; My pet has a (spreadsheet calculations) 53,79% chance to crit overall (including talents).
My pet uses a special every 1,31 seconds leading to 1 proc every 2,43 seconds on average.
My pets special rate and crit chance should be the same as most BM hunters as its based on:
Base agi for pet, additive buffs, multiplicative buffs, Spider's Bite (pet talent), Ferocity (hunter talent) and buffs (LotP, Rampage).

All this leads to 57,65 mps from 2/2 invigoration when the pet has BoK, agi buff (soe totem, horn of winter) and Rampage/LotP.
Thats 86,48 mana per gcd or 288,25 mp5 - with AS/SS mana cost of 252 thats more than 1 extra shot per 5 seconds from invigoration - so in mana starved environments its actually pretty good. And 1/2 is equally feasible if your mana starvations is less but you still need to viper.
The actual dps gain from invigoration depends on how severe your mana regen problem is in your raid environment.

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Old 04/15/09, 5:38 AM   #96
Holas
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Quel'Thalas (EU)
I'm wondering if 5/5 mortal shots in a spec like this will become a greater dps increase at higer crit levels already with my current gear the diffrence between 5/5 mortal shots and going into the Survival tree is only ~40dps diffrence and already going 4/5 mortal shots and ignoreing survival instincts seems to net a small dps increase.

all comparisons were done with "40.36% crit"

Last edited by Holas : 04/15/09 at 5:47 AM.

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Old 04/15/09, 8:20 AM   #97
Stark92
Glass Joe
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Muradin
wws report

now that 3.1 has acutally been released does anyone have a wws report or some sort of report to show how their dps actually worked out in a 25 man raid as a bm hunter? I personally am playing marks as of now, but am thinking about trying to find a viable bm spec. lemme know! thanks.

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Old 04/15/09, 9:43 AM   #98
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
I have wws from the last 2 weeks, and I will be maintining wws parses of the ulduar fights we will be having this week as well.

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Old 04/15/09, 1:47 PM   #99
Rosamonde
Piston Honda
 
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Human Hunter
 
Argent Dawn
Originally Posted by Holas View Post
I'm wondering if 5/5 mortal shots in a spec like this will become a greater dps increase at higer crit levels already with my current gear the diffrence between 5/5 mortal shots and going into the Survival tree is only ~40dps diffrence and already going 4/5 mortal shots and ignoreing survival instincts seems to net a small dps increase.

all comparisons were done with "40.36% crit"
Taking 5/5 Mortal Shots and 4/5 Imp Tracking in my current gear results in a loss of 7 dps, this with 38.97% crit and 7422 AP raid buffed. If I give myself ~5% more crit (44.42%), it is a loss of 5 dps, and if ~10% more (49.96%). it is a 3 dps loss.

This is only a rough comparison, since stacking more crit at current gear levels would cause AP to go down, while gaining crit through large gear upgrades would cause AP to go up. All I can say is try it out for yourself from time to time and see if it is an increase with the gear you have.

PS I will post up some WWS from Ulduar or 3.1 Naxx once I have some available.


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Old 04/15/09, 1:59 PM   #100
Stark92
Glass Joe
 
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Dwarf Hunter
 
Muradin
Originally Posted by Nooska View Post
I have wws from the last 2 weeks, and I will be maintining wws parses of the ulduar fights we will be having this week as well.
do you have a link or a ss that i could see that?

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Old 04/15/09, 5:07 PM   #101
Nooska
King Hippo
 
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Blood Elf Hunter
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Stark92 View Post
do you have a link or a ss that i could see that?
Since we don't do 25 man raid till tomorrow night I can only show you pre patch wws (a bit useless)

I will screen somthing tomorrow if I find a fight thats comparable - so far Idon't see any from the 10 man we started tonight.

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Old 04/15/09, 8:05 PM   #102
elfyperson
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Shattered Hand
is bm going to be the highest dps?

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Old 04/15/09, 10:04 PM   #103
Iru
Don Flamenco
 
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Draenei Hunter
 
Muradin
According to the spreadsheet no. It's just not going to be as far off as it was post-3.0.8 nerf

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Old 04/16/09, 5:21 AM   #104
Dwimmerlaik
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Warlock
 
Thrall
Has anyone been able to produce a WWS post-patch yet, despite the... amazing stability of our servers?

Also, has anyone found Gondria, the new Spirit Beast?

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Old 04/16/09, 8:12 AM   #105
Ghtshan
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Hunter
 
Arygos
I have looked for Gondria and also noticed other Hunters in the area at the same time. Im still looking for loque so i the thought of trying to find another spirit beast is a little disturbing right now.

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