Hunter stats and scaling - Page 2

Esoth · 04/08/09, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by Namarus

In BC there was a 1 roll system, has this changed?

I don't believe this is true; the OP contains a link to Lactose's old study showing hunters on a 2-roll system in the midst of BC.

alarge · 04/08/09, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by Namarus

In BC there was a 1 roll system, has this changed?

When I checked the prevailing opinion during BC, it was for a two-roll system for hunters (for both white and yellow damage). The one-roll system only seems to apply to white melee damage. So, no, it hasn't changed.

noglen · 04/09/09, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Esoth

Is there a crit cap?
There is no crit cap but because you need to hit to crit your crit percentage is effectively a percentage of total landed (not missed) shots, rather than total shots.

Still not quite right. The crit cap is 100%, but having 100% crit doesn't mean you will crit with 100% of your shots if you are not also hit capped, it only means you will crit with 100% of your hits.

Nooska · 04/09/09, 7:19 AM

Originally Posted by noglen

Still not quite right. The crit cap is 100%, but having 100% crit doesn't mean you will crit with 100% of your shots if you are not also hit capped, it only means you will crit with 100% of your hits.

That is actually what that line says.

"Because you need to hit to crit your crit percentage is effectively a percentage of total landed (not missed) shots"

You can only crit if you hit. Your crit % is a percentage of your hits.

To boil it down.

Drakbak · 04/09/09, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

This is wrong by the the othe rinformation you have (at least the way it reads to me);

We are assuming that we are operating with a 2 roll system, first roll being hit/miss, where crit is in the second roll.
Thus there is no crit cap regardless of your hit - unless you have 100% crit you will hit with shots that are not crits as the rate is applied after determining whether to hit or miss.

There is a "crit cap" compared to fired shots that fills what you are saying:

If, in a perfect rng, you have no hit rating and you fire 100 shots with 100% crit, you will have 92 shots that crit and 8 that miss.

If, in a perfect rng, you have no hit rating and you fire 100 shots with 92% crit you will have 85 shots that crit, 7 that hit and 8 that miss.

Reducing your hit will reduce the amount you crit. In your first example, those 8 misses are essentially 8 missed crits since if they landed, they had a 100% chance to crit. With the second example, 8*92%=7.36, so you essentially missed 7 crits.

I think the logic behind the "Crit Cap" is that you can't crit shots that you miss. Like in the first example, with no hit rating, 8 of your shots will miss regardless if you have no +hit, resulting in 8 fewer crits. To find your effective crit rate (when applied to the amount of shots fired), all you need to do is multiply your chance to crit by you chance to hit. Using the second example from the quote, crit * hit = 0.92*0.92 = 0.85 = 85% chance to crit, which as the example shows 85 of the 100 shots fired were in fact crits.

Nooska · 04/09/09, 5:17 PM

I agree that they are missed hits and your true crit is capped by your hit, but...

When reading the word cap, the first thing that jumps to mind is that you cannot go higher than this, and even at 8% miss you aren't crit capped till 100% crit as you will have ordinary hits as well.
If we say the cap is 92% plus your +hit, then poeple will say that you don't get any benefit from crit after 92% (its so very theoretical anyway, as 92% crit isn't possible to obtain without something like loatheps spore debuff)

noglen · 04/14/09, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Nooska

When reading the word cap, the first thing that jumps to mind is that you cannot go higher than this

This is what I was basing my previous post on.

When refering to a cap, it is usually the point at which we get no further benifit from a stat, not the maximum return we can get from it. (eg. We refer to the hit cap as being 8%, which is the amount of the stat we need, not 100% - which is the result of getting 8% +hit)

Originally Posted by Nooska

That is actually what that line says.

"Because you need to hit to crit your crit percentage is effectively a percentage of total landed (not missed) shots"

The main difference I was pointing out here, is there is actually a crit cap (100%), where as the OP says there is not.

Slager · 04/15/09, 12:43 AM

Would it be possible to have a 1/3 EW line added? I have seen several people today saying that EW is a place to pull points from and are claiming that only 1 point is enough to provide solid uptime.

tarus · 04/28/09, 1:52 PM

GC made a long post about how ArP works and the actual equations used in the calculations. These are much more complex then what most assumptions were making. Is it possible to alter your scaling values based on the exact equations.

Esoth · 04/28/09, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by tarus

GC made a long post about how ArP works and the actual equations used in the calculations. These are much more complex then what most assumptions were making. Is it possible to alter your scaling values based on the exact equations.

Yeah that part is out dated. When I get a chance I'll get back to it, but in the meantime I'm going to simply mark it as outdated.

CALMSTORM · 04/29/09, 4:18 AM

I would like to put 2cents...

Here it obviously states AP / Crit scales linear... Well its kind of obvious as it scale linear with damage numbers (100 extra ap will give the same boost whether you have 8000Ap or 1000Ap already) but it does not give the same percentage of a damage increase as if you have 8000Ap already that extra 100Ap 's benefit of 40dps wont be "that" much of an improvement for you...

While the Haste benefits does NOT act in the same way... Regardless of you have 8000Ap or 1000Ap it will boost your damage by the same damage percentage... So that 100haste imp will give you much more dps if you have 8000AP and less dps if you have 1000Ap...

Edit = Corrected wording

Mippy · 04/29/09, 4:52 AM

Originally Posted by CALMSTORM

I would like to put 2cents...

Here it obviously states AP / Crit scales linear... Well its kind of obvious as it scale linear with damage numbers (100 extra ap will give the same boost whether you have 8000Ap or 1000Ap already) but it does not give the same percentage of a damage increase as if you have 8000Ap already that extra 100Ap 's benefit of 40dps wont be "that" much of an improvement for you...

While the Haste benefits does NOT act in the same way... Regardless of you have 8000Ap or 1000Ap it will boost your damage by the same damage percentage... So that 100haste imp will give you much more dps if you have 8000AP and less dps if you have 1000Ap...

Edit = Corrected wording

You're comparing apples with beans. 100 AP is a smaller relative increase at 8000 AP vs 1000 AP, and 100 haste is a smaller relative increase at 8000 haste than 1000 haste. The 100 AP gives a larger absolute increase at 8000 haste than 1000 haste, just like how 100 haste gives a larger absolute increase at 8000 AP than 1000 AP.

Esoth · 04/29/09, 4:27 PM

Updated with the new understanding of ArP mechanics and some new graphics. Also put in a note about what the intention of this post is - please stop linking to this thread talking about it showing stat X vs. stat Y. It doesn't address that.

Originally Posted by CALMSTORM

I would like to put 2cents...

Here it obviously states AP / Crit scales linear... Well its kind of obvious as it scale linear with damage numbers (100 extra ap will give the same boost whether you have 8000Ap or 1000Ap already) but it does not give the same percentage of a damage increase as if you have 8000Ap already that extra 100Ap 's benefit of 40dps wont be "that" much of an improvement for you...

While the Haste benefits does NOT act in the same way... Regardless of you have 8000Ap or 1000Ap it will boost your damage by the same damage percentage... So that 100haste imp will give you much more dps if you have 8000AP and less dps if you have 1000Ap...

Edit = Corrected wording

You're partially right, but only looking at part of the picture. As I said in the OP, increasing the amount of AP you have will increase the value of other stats, like haste; ie, the more DPS you do, the more haste is worth. But it's also true that the more haste you have, the more AP is worth. You're basically talking about the derivative, which is a flat line for both.

As an example, do some hand adjustments with large values of AP and haste in the spreadsheet. If you put in a lot of AP, the relative value of AP doesn't change much, haste (and other stats) go up. If you instead put in a lot of haste, the value of haste doesn't change much but AP does (as do other stats).

Again, I try to mention that increasing the amount of one stat you have normally increases the value of other stats. Technically I could make 5!=120 graphs comparing ap/crit/pen/haste/hit to each other, but I don't think the moderators or readers would think that was a very good idea.

scathatch · 04/30/09, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Slager

Would it be possible to have a 1/3 EW line added? I have seen several people today saying that EW is a place to pull points from and are claiming that only 1 point is enough to provide solid uptime.

Being a surv hunter all through out BC i can tell ya 1/3 in EW is for the lose. You would need around 65% (kinda guess'n) for ew to have a solid up time. Now granted since it's just for you and not for the whole raid it becomes a mater of how important 300-400+ AP is to ya. In my opinion you are completly safe at 33% crit (w/o raid buffs) to go 2/3 EW.

CALMSTORM · 04/30/09, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by Esoth

Updated with the new understanding of ArP mechanics and some new graphics. Also put in a note about what the intention of this post is - please stop linking to this thread talking about it showing stat X vs. stat Y. It doesn't address that.

You're partially right, but only looking at part of the picture. As I said in the OP, increasing the amount of AP you have will increase the value of other stats, like haste; ie, the more DPS you do, the more haste is worth. But it's also true that the more haste you have, the more AP is worth. You're basically talking about the derivative, which is a flat line for both.

As an example, do some hand adjustments with large values of AP and haste in the spreadsheet. If you put in a lot of AP, the relative value of AP doesn't change much, haste (and other stats) go up. If you instead put in a lot of haste, the value of haste doesn't change much but AP does (as do other stats).

Again, I try to mention that increasing the amount of one stat you have normally increases the value of other stats. Technically I could make 5!=120 graphs comparing ap/crit/pen/haste/hit to each other, but I don't think the moderators or readers would think that was a very good idea.

Yes.. I completely agree with you... My idea about raising the issue was; it looks like a "sweet spot" of stat ratios could be derieved... That could prove a good approach how to compare stat values when... (For example = Given the same total of Gear Budget, Best Dps will be achieved by having = 10haste and 0,8% crit for every 100 RaP ) -The numbers are just random in order to clarify the idea.. - But tells a Hunter with 400Haste 32%crit and 4k Rap aim for 500 haste, 40%crit and 5k rap... (Numbers are random and in no way meant to being the optimum balance or such)

Still I did not want to crowd your nice work.. So feel free to ask the post be removed

)

Cheers