CALMSTORM

I would like to put 2cents...

Here it obviously states AP / Crit scales linear... Well its kind of obvious as it scale linear with damage numbers (100 extra ap will give the same boost whether you have 8000Ap or 1000Ap already) but it does not give the same percentage of a damage increase as if you have 8000Ap already that extra 100Ap 's benefit of 40dps wont be "that" much of an improvement for you...

While the Haste benefits does NOT act in the same way... Regardless of you have 8000Ap or 1000Ap it will boost your damage by the same damage percentage... So that 100haste imp will give you much more dps if you have 8000AP and less dps if you have 1000Ap...

Edit = Corrected wording

 

Mippy

You're comparing apples with beans. 100 AP is a smaller relative increase at 8000 AP vs 1000 AP, and 100 haste is a smaller relative increase at 8000 haste than 1000 haste. The 100 AP gives a larger absolute increase at 8000 haste than 1000 haste, just like how 100 haste gives a larger absolute increase at 8000 AP than 1000 AP.

 

Esoth

Updated with the new understanding of ArP mechanics and some new graphics. Also put in a note about what the intention of this post is - please stop linking to this thread talking about it showing stat X vs. stat Y. It doesn't address that.

You're partially right, but only looking at part of the picture. As I said in the OP, increasing the amount of AP you have will increase the value of other stats, like haste; ie, the more DPS you do, the more haste is worth. But it's also true that the more haste you have, the more AP is worth. You're basically talking about the derivative, which is a flat line for both.

As an example, do some hand adjustments with large values of AP and haste in the spreadsheet. If you put in a lot of AP, the relative value of AP doesn't change much, haste (and other stats) go up. If you instead put in a lot of haste, the value of haste doesn't change much but AP does (as do other stats).

Again, I try to mention that increasing the amount of one stat you have normally increases the value of other stats. Technically I could make 5!=120 graphs comparing ap/crit/pen/haste/hit to each other, but I don't think the moderators or readers would think that was a very good idea.

 

scathatch

Being a surv hunter all through out BC i can tell ya 1/3 in EW is for the lose. You would need around 65% (kinda guess'n) for ew to have a solid up time. Now granted since it's just for you and not for the whole raid it becomes a mater of how important 300-400+ AP is to ya. In my opinion you are completly safe at 33% crit (w/o raid buffs) to go 2/3 EW.

 

CALMSTORM

Yes.. I completely agree with you... My idea about raising the issue was; it looks like a "sweet spot" of stat ratios could be derieved... That could prove a good approach how to compare stat values when... (For example = Given the same total of Gear Budget, Best Dps will be achieved by having = 10haste and 0,8% crit for every 100 RaP ) -The numbers are just random in order to clarify the idea.. - But tells a Hunter with 400Haste 32%crit and 4k Rap aim for 500 haste, 40%crit and 5k rap... (Numbers are random and in no way meant to being the optimum balance or such)

Still I did not want to crowd your nice work.. So feel free to ask the post be removed )

Cheers

 

Effinhunter

Since this appears to be causing some confusion in other threads, you may want to update the armor penetration mechanics description to reflect the latest blue posts about the changes to armor penetration in 3.1.

GC even gives the exact calculation for finding the cap here:

116% Armor Pen only giving 66%!?!?!?! | DPS | WoW Blue Tracker | World of Raids

In his words, the tooltip is only telling you the maximum possible armor penetration you can get for a percentage of the target's armor. Since physical damage is currently less than half of dps of any hunter spec, armor penetration is not something we should really stack, especially with the effective hard cap in place.

Armor penetration affects the target up to the cap (found in the above link via calculations) with the full armor penetration in your tooltip. After that, NONE of your armor penetration applies. Perhaps it would be best to use the current boss armor values with the calculation, find the exact maximum armor penetration that is required before the cap, and show calculations based from 0 armor penetration to that level.

 

NeVeRLiFT

Could someone tell me if there is a % of ArP I should try to reach or if like I think I should not even worry about have any ArP on my gear and just keep going for AP, crit and haste(till soft capped).

Thanks

 

Esoth

I have updated the armor pen section since then. As mentioned in the OP, there's more discussion about armor pen here: Combat Ratings at level 80. Basically, GC got a couple things switched compared to actual testing. Also, unless they changed something very recently that I missed, the armor pen cap is not a cap at all. You can even take armor below 0 and do more damage than an unmitigated attack. The calculations I'm using should be the same as in Shandara's spreadsheet, which should be the same as the general accepted theory in the thread above, which is just a minor tweak to what GC posted. The calculations I did are on the accompanying spreadsheet; feel free to point out any errors you see there.

Also I think you're way off with comments like "Since physical damage is currently less than half of dps of any hunter spec, armor penetration is not something we should really stack, especially with the effective hard cap in place." Ostensibly, yes, armor pen looks weak because it is only affecting a certain percentage of your damage. However, in the spreadsheet it is coming close to or beating crit depending on gear. You also have to consider that outside of gems we don't normally get to go heavy on agi/ap while ignoring everything else, at least not as much as was possible in BC. Decisions like haste versus pen are more likely to be what you face.

 

ankah

How about the effects of haste + ArP?

I am wrong to think that the more ArP you have, the more beneficial haste is? Haste is linear, but ArP at the moment is not. Could haste be used to increase the impact of ArP?

I know it sounds a bit off, but we are unique(at least so I think, since I don't understand rogues fully, and our shots get fired at a much faster rate than lets say a warrior) in how fast we can consistently put out physical damage.

 

Esoth

Haste increases your auto shot frequency (at the least) which means that the harder they hit (ArP in this case) the more useful haste will be. The reverse is also true - adding ArP increases the value of haste. This is also the case for pretty much every stat pairing we have.

 

Althorius

I'm curious if someone has extrapolated an estimate of how much crit = AP, for instance how much attack power would 1% crit equate to, if that's even possible to calculate, and which would be more important to stack? The BIS lists all have agi gems listed as the recommended gems, but I've been running crit gems in my gear for as long as I can recall and I generally outperform other hunters. Unfortunately I don't have Excel on this computer so I can't run the numbers in the spreadsheet. I'm using Journey's End at the moment, but I have managed to offset roll for two one-handers that would increase my crit by nearly a full percent, but at the loss of some 100 attack power. I also run Ratingsbuster and I'm just looking for a general rule of thumb for item drops... generally right now if I see an item drop with almost any crit increase I roll for it even if it's an attack power loss, but I was thinking 100 attack power might be a bit much to give up. Any opinions would be appreciated.

 

Rezdan

Mate, as your gear/talents/latency changes, the value of stats change. Its faulty to estimate how much Crit = AP and the rest of that without taking these into account especially because they scale with each other. The only answer that will be even remotely close is the one you'ld get from the spreadsheet. If you can't run the numbers yourself, I'd suggest downloading the BIS one with setups already saved and just taking the Stat valuations from that.

Also, just because you outperform other hunters going with Crit gems does not mean they're superior. It could mean you're just consistently lucky or even that the other hunters have less skill or more limiting factors than you. Ultimately, you should only compare DPS with yourself - try crit gems this week and agi next week for example. But even then, RNG plays such a huge factor that these comparisons are limited, even though not as limited as comparing with another player.

 

alarge

As another poster pointed out, the answer for relative weights changes with gear, with talents, and with buffs. Getting a relatively accurate answer requires considering all these variables and more (and hence, the spreadsheet is your friend).

Having said that, here are *my* numbers. As you can see, I'm an SV hunter with fairly typical entry-level Ulduar gear (mostly 213s, with a 200 and couple of 226s):

Agi = 1.187 dps per item budget (e.g., per point of agi)
AP = 0.795 dps per item budget (e.g., per 2 points of AP)
Crit = 0.791 dps per item budget
Hit = 1.235 dps per item budget (until capped, of course)
Int = 0.434 dps per item budget
ArP = 0.641 dps per item budget
Haste = 0.402 dps per item budget
Sta = 0.268 per item budget (e.g., per 1.5 points of stamina)

There are some pretty clear tiers here:

Tier 1 = hit, followed by agi
Tier 2 = AP, followed by crit
Tier 3 = ArP
Tier 4 = Int, followed by haste
Tier 5 = stamina

So if your question is "what is the best overall stat to gem for?", the answer will usually be "hit unless you are capped; otherwise agi". If the question is "what is the best *yellow* stat to gem for?", the answer will usually be "hit unless you are capped, otherwise crit." But crit is nowhere close to agi for overall punch. And I doubt that would be any different for any SV hunter. Agility just does too much for us.

 

seridosgunner

Is there an point as to where i should stop stacking agility and start stacking another stat?

 

alarge

Unfortunately, the question doesn't make any sense. There is never a cap on base abilities.

Agility has some second-order effects that might cap for other classes. Specifically, melee classes can cap their white crit rate, since it is limited by glancing blow rate. Since we are on a 2-roll system, however, no such crit cap exists for us. Additionally, agility gives AP, which never caps.

Perhaps you meant "Is there a point at which we get so much agility that it is no longer the best stat to stack? (after hit cap)"? It seems unlikely to me, given how our shot mechanics and pet inheritance works. Either agility (for SV/MM) or AP (for BM/MM) seems likely to always be the best stat after hit cap.

 

Lupius

Wow I'm disillusioned. I was always under the impression that slower weapon gave bigger steady shots and had no effect on Aimed and Multi. Those formulas on Wowwiki are severely outdated and inaccurate!