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06/08/09, 9:22 AM
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#16
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Glass Joe
Tauren Druid
Vek'nilash (EU)
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From today I've a 80 hunter too, and then i'm new into those abbreviations. I'm finding this topic helpful and good for new hunters like me.
In the Survival shot rotation section you've wrote this:
Shot Priority
KS/ES/BA/Sp/MS or AiS/SS
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Following the "legenda" about abbreviatons you made at the beginning of first post, I'm still a bit confused (maybe cause I'm too new into Hunter's abilities):
what's Sp?
when you say "or AiS/SS" what you mean? what those 2 abilities are replacing instead of previous rotation? Just MS?
what's AiS?
Maybe you can add these abbreviations too!
Thanks, Bye.
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06/08/09, 9:25 AM
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#17
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Piston Honda
Tauren Hunter
Cenarion Circle
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"Sp" was a typo I didn't notice. "MS or AiS" is Multi-Shot or Aimed Shot, depending on your spec.
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06/08/09, 9:26 AM
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#18
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Hunter
Dethecus
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I find this guide very simple and understandable to everyone. I would imagine this being a sticky on the wow.com hunter forum's, but for Elitist Jerks I would recommend something much more specific for experienced hunters seeking to tweak their playstyle and dps.
Hunter - Part 1 - Survival - Ensidia
Hunter - Part 2 - Marksman - Ensidia
I've fought taught me a lot outside of forums (especially macros).
Part 1 is slightly outdated compared to Part 2, but still provides great information about Survival.
Last edited by brokenarrow : 06/08/09 at 9:31 AM.
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06/08/09, 2:28 PM
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#19
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Von Kaiser
lol
Draenei Mage
Non-US/EU Server
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Why all the hate on Efficiency and IHM. According to the Spreadsheet Efficiency is worth more per point then Barrage or Improved Barrage in my current gear and nearly equal to Improved Steady Shot. Considering in most of Uld we usually end up in far from perfect situations where we need to use SrS and HM and Traps and Volley I would think MM would find itself mana starved a lot of the time and this was my own experience when I tried it. The spreadsheet data also seems to support this. With no efficiency I have a Viper uptime of 3.5% whereas with 4/5 Efficiency(and no barrage/improved barrage) my DPS is higher and a viper uptime of just .21%. 3/3 IHM also comes out higher then 3/3 Barrage without even considering the bonus to other hunters. Is there something I'm missing here?
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06/09/09, 3:14 PM
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#20
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Glass Joe
Bighead
Orc Hunter
Gnomeregan
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I have a question in regard of shot priorities.
I just want to know if I am doing it correctly, for a survival hunter the shot priority is KS/ES/BA/SrS/MS or AiS/SS.
I use cooldowatch addon which gives me a bar of each skill on my screen showing me their CD until it's ready to be used again. It seems like to me it's a first come first serve situation unless 2-3 skills ready at the same time then I would go back with the shot priorities. Can anyone correct me if I am doing wrong?
Thanks
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06/10/09, 10:49 AM
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#21
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Von Kaiser
lol
Draenei Mage
Non-US/EU Server
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Originally Posted by Domo
I have a question in regard of shot priorities.
I just want to know if I am doing it correctly, for a survival hunter the shot priority is KS/ES/BA/SrS/MS or AiS/SS.
I use cooldowatch addon which gives me a bar of each skill on my screen showing me their CD until it's ready to be used again. It seems like to me it's a first come first serve situation unless 2-3 skills ready at the same time then I would go back with the shot priorities. Can anyone correct me if I am doing wrong?
Thanks
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Thats the same priority I use and is used for BiS DPS:
Best SV Template:
Total DPS: 8139,32
Hunter DPS: 6930,70
Pet DPS: 1208,61
AP: 10032
Crit: 64,28%
Hit: 100,00%
ArP: 287
Shot Queue: KS/ES/BA/Sp/MS/SS
Best Possible DPS in Shandaras WotLK Spreadsheet
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06/10/09, 11:49 AM
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#22
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Von Kaiser
Nachtpfeil
Night Elf Hunter
Non-US/EU Server (EU)
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Improved Hunter's Mark - ONLY consider this is your raid has 3 or more Hunters including yourself.
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This is just plain wrong. 50 AP per point is even valuable when you are alone in your raid as you'd take the points out of Imp SS, which is just a bad talent. With 2 hunters or more, this is a no-brainer.
Another thing, it would be cool if you added a note at Hawk Eye. The range is very nice in some fights, and Trap Mastery isn't that mighty anyway, so at least in SV builds it's an option.
Not so important, but
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Surv never saw much action until Wrath.
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is not true. In BC, you absolutely wanted a SV hunter in the raid because of Expose Weakness, which was pretty awesome those days. And in the later Classic days when SV was overhauled, it was a viable option over MM.
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06/10/09, 11:59 AM
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#23
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Bald Bull
Pandaren Hunter
Whisperwind
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Q: What about weapon speed?
A: That doesn't matter either. It may if you're MM since Chimera is partially based on weapon damage, in which case just use the spreadsheet.
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I made a post on how weapon speed and speed normalization seem to be used here
Also, IHM is in a much better position since hunter's mark was changed to 500 AP base. Especially at lower gear levels, I think you can see an advantage with a much smaller number of hunters in the raid than before.
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06/10/09, 12:04 PM
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#24
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Stormscale (EU)
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Improved Hunter's Mark - ONLY consider this is your raid has 3 or more Hunters including yourself.
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Speccing Improved Hunter's Mark shows an increase in DPS for me in the spreadsheet. I took one point of each Improved Barrage, Rapid Recuperation and Improved Steady Shot.
Thus, taking Improved Hunter's Mark is beneficial, even if you're the only hunter in the raid.
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06/10/09, 12:53 PM
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#25
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Hunter
Sentinels
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Just a word on rotations ...
Assuming you are MM with appropriate latency (and per shot transaction time (your latency + reaction time)), MM settles into a fixed rotation: CS > AiS > AS > SS x 3 > Repeat. This holds true for the duration of the encounter above 20% target health. Readiness will always replace a Steady Shot cooldown and reset the the rotation.
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06/10/09, 1:01 PM
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#26
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King Hippo
Orc Hunter
Tarren Mill (EU)
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Originally Posted by Rathenel
Just a word on rotations ...
Assuming you are MM with appropriate latency (and per shot transaction time (your latency + reaction time)), MM settles into a fixed rotation: CS > AiS > AS > SS x 3 > Repeat. This holds true for the duration of the encounter above 20% target health. Readiness will always replace a Steady Shot cooldown and reset the the rotation.
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A rotation like that means you will give Arcane Shot a 10s CD instead of its 6s CD. Someone posted in another thread, that for situations where the cooldowns line up to make Aimed and Arcane possible after a Chimera, you take Arcane instead of Aimed so you unlock Arcane from Chimera/Aimed CD's. It'll take a while before they line up again. Doing that will result in higher dps, but it is of course a slightly more complex rotation.
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06/10/09, 1:12 PM
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#27
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Hunter
Sentinels
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Whitemane:
The returns diminish the better your transaction time becomes on a per shot basis. As such, a fixed rotation will usually yield higher results in practice over the priority queue, because you can automate some of the process to limit the impact of reaction time. Indeed, assuming your gearing All Mail and going for the 4 Piece on Conquerors, the DPS difference is +2.3 by shifting the shot priority to Arcane. In practical terms, that seems hardly worth the alteration for introducing the higher level of complexity.
Last edited by Rathenel : 06/10/09 at 1:24 PM.
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06/10/09, 3:09 PM
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#28
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Great Tiger
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Some comments:
1) Concerning agility, I wouldn't say that the dodge and armor from agility is pointless. My unbuffed agility results in 2526 armor, which is a quarter of my unbuffed armor. In addition, it results in 16.8% dodge. Both amount to significant contributions in survivability. It is true that only a single point in agility provides neglible benefits to survivability, but with how much agility we have, it adds up and makes a huge difference. I would rephrase the statement to say that armor and dodge contribute to our survivability.
I would also suggest mentioning that agility is a little more important for some specs due to abilities that modify the amount (i.e., SV's Lightning Reflexes for 15% and MM's Combat Experience for 4%).
2) Concerning intellect, you should mention how that it affects the amount of mana you regen from the constant tick part of Aspect of the Viper since that is dependent on your total mana pool, which is dependent on your intellect.
3) I am also hestitant with lumping crit, haste, and armor penetration together into one group.
First, for a guide, I think that it would be beneficial to point out several things about haste. These include that it only affects your autoshot and steady shot speed and that for steady shot that it is capped at getting it down to the 1.5 s GCD. I would mention how much haste is needed to reach that value (after accounting for the quiver). I would also mention how BM hunters have their Steady Shot already at the cap from Serpent's Swiftness and that haste is less beneficial to them.
Next, it is important that for some hunter classes to point out that crit is very meaningful and worth stacking some. For instance, for MMs, our crit modifier is about 280% of a non-crit. Plus, crits of certain shots causing the Peircing Shots affect for an addition 30% damage. This is significant.
Finally, armor pentration has a totally different mechanic than the other two that would be worthwhile to mention how they affect hunters.
4) Concerning shot rotations, I was going to suggest adding in the standard priorities for each of the specs with pointing out some possible variations, but I see you do that later. Here I would state to atree's section below for suggested rotations.
5) Concerning the MM spec, the spec listed is out of date. Since 3.1.3, points should be in IHM now instead of ISS or IB. IHM is now a benefit for most hunter's solo as well as the benefit it provides to other hunters in the raid. For alternate glyphs, Hawk is a great option too since it increases your autohot speed and improves the chances for WQ procs. Concerning the shot priority, I would also mention that depending on glyph choices that prioritizing Arcane Shot over Aimed Shot cam be a possible DPS gain.
6) I would also mention in the MM section Readiness and some of the possible uses for it.
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06/11/09, 1:00 AM
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#29
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Piston Honda
Tauren Hunter
Cenarion Circle
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1) Melee attack survivability doesn't matter in a raid situation. Hunters aren't tanking mobs where armor and dodge will ever be useful.
2) I figured that was clear but I'll reword it.
3) I lump them all because they're stats that are good for Hunters but that should never be gemmed for or what you should be basing your DPS on. You get plenty of crit from gear. This isn't meant as a be all end all theorycrafting for Hunter stats, just a basic description.
4) and 5) I just copy the specs/glyphs/rotations from the Best DPS thread. I haven't updated that in a few days.
6) I could go into that a bit more, yes.
Keep in mind everyone that this is a introductory guide to raiding for Hunters. Other data like the values of specific stats or variances in rotations and such are what the rest of this forum is for. This is just for Hunters who are new to raiding and want some basic information and an idea on where to start researching. If I tried to add in every fact for every detail then the guide would be as big as the entire forum and the other threads would be pointless.
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06/11/09, 3:43 PM
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#30
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Great Tiger
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Originally Posted by Lerastes
1) Melee attack survivability doesn't matter in a raid situation. Hunters aren't tanking mobs where armor and dodge will ever be useful.
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Never say never.
There have been and probably will be situations where a hunter is asked to either kite or even tank something, and we have tools for doing so such as Distracting Shot, Traps, Wing Clip, Disengage, and Deterrence. A prime example is in MH kiting the ghouls in order to get the NPCs involved in each wave of attack or tanking the dragon riders before the 2nd boss in BT. I hunter could be asked to tank Mimiron's head, which I have had to do when the other ranged tanks have died. In these situations there will be times where we may take physical damage and our armor and dodge matter.
Even if we are not explicitly tanking or kiting a mob, there are usually situations where we may take physical damage. Looking at my last WWS, 16% of the damage I received was physical. Of the physical attacks on me 8% missed and about 3% were dodged.
I will agree that armor and dodge are not our primary concerns, but they are still important in certain situations.
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