Hunter DPS Analyzer - Page 54

pichuca · 01/05/12, 8:41 AM

That´s beacause you are not running FD with the propper settings. Share a setting link and you´ll see how what your friend is doing is wrong

buzzerbeater · 01/05/12, 10:06 AM

So I made 3 Profiles:

1.
All settings default.
Common shot prio. AS in, AI only Instant.
Best raid buffs.

31k

2.
All settings default
best raid buffs.
took AS out, AI only instant.

34k

3.
All settings default.
best raid buff
As out, AI manual and instant.

36,7k

Search the publicprofiles for "Drego", there should be three. Named accordingly to the settings. I don't know how to post direct links.

pichuca · 01/05/12, 3:07 PM

Well that took 30 sec.

the default setting is not configured at all.
-Switch glyph of CS to glyph of AS
-Check "disable AS during CA"
-Select "stady shot in pairs if ISS is <4 sec"
-Select "manual cast and Instant" for AiS behaviour
-Set maximum speed for AiS hardcast to 1.8/1.9 and "except during careful aim"
-Disable sting and CS during CA phase.

now we get 35954.99 DPS. Didn´t even look at the gear/Reforges/pet etc, It can still be improved

Whitefyst · 01/05/12, 4:20 PM

To clarify and add to what pichuca stated about the Drego FD cases shown below (and as a reminder, the MM guide has a section devoted to proper MM FD settings):

Originally Posted by pichuca

the default setting is not configured at all.
-Switch glyph of CS to glyph of AS
-Check "disable AS during CA"
-Select "stady shot in pairs if ISS is <4 sec"
-Select "manual cast and Instant" for AiS behaviour
-Set maximum speed for AiS hardcast to 1.8/1.9 and "except during careful aim"
-Disable sting and CS during CA phase.

For the default case:

If you are doing an AS focus dump rotation, having the AS glyph and the 12% bonus damage is critical. Replacing the CS glyph with it is a +500 DPS change.

It is important to disable AS during the CA phase since not only is it less DPS than AIs that are guaranteed to crit, it is less DPS than SS that are guaranteed to crit plus the additional MMM AI and Flaming Arrow procs. This change is over +1000 DPS.

Having the proper SS setting is important as well. If you look at the debug data for this case, there were many situations were the ISS buff was dropped for extended periods since 1 SS with the T13 2P was enough focus to be able to cast another AS. Doing a quick look through, I saw about 120s of the 300s with no ISS buff. That is 40% downtime on ISS and a huge loss of DPS. This results in +324 DPS. Note that your CS and SS only case obviously had a 100% ISS uptime and did not suffer from this case.

In your setup, it was actually better to perform SrS and CS during the CA phase.

I reduced the wait time for CS from 0.5s to 0.3s. With how much extra focus we have from the T13 2P, it can be beneficial to actually delay your CS cast a bit to squeeze in an extra AS to utilize that focus that would otherwise be wasted. This was about a 300 DPS gain.

I turned off waiting for KS. It is not worth waiting time to cast it. This did not result in any change since the run never waited to cast it off CD.

Even with an AS focus dump case, you still want to use AI during the CA phase when it is basically guaranteed to crit. Setting Aimed Shot behavior to Manual Cast during CA and instant is +971 DPS.

Also your cast casts BL right at the beginning where it overlaps with RF, which is generally a bad idea. The best place for it is during the KS phase. In this case since you are not using AI during dynamic haste effects outside the CA phase, it is actually a small -90 DPS loss to move BL away from the AI casts during the CA phase.

The next thing for this case is that if you are using AS primarily as the focus dump, then you do not need so much haste. You actually want mastery instead of haste due to all of the extra shots you are taking. I dumped about 500 haste for mastery and crit for +171 DPS.

This results in a case that does 34304 DPS. This is about 3300 DPS higher than you had attributed to it.

The thing is that I would never recommend anyone to perform this case though. The big adjustment that should be made is to cast AI when under sufficient dynamic haste effects (i.e, anytime its cast time is less than 1.8s as pichuca stated). Setting the AI Behavior to manual cast and instant and the cast time to 1.8s except during CA results in a balanced AS/AI MM approach. This added +971 DPS.

With casting a lot of AIs, you want some of that haste back we reforged away for the AS only (except during CA) case. Adding the haste back in is another couple hundred DPS. At this point it works better now to disable SrS and CS during the CA phase with the result being to 36163 DPS. This is about 2.1K better than your no focus dump case.

Dropping AS from this is only -150 DPS since we will have cast time limitations on AI and casting AS to use the focus when unhasted is better than just casting SSs. Allowing AI to be cast anytime you have enough focus, replacing the AS glyph with the CS glyph, and reforging into more haste results in about the 36.7K DPS you listed for the AI only case.

A couple additional items to note:
1) Once the T12 2P is lost, the AI instant only case will lose a lot more DPS relatively than the cases that use AS and/or AI to dump focus.
2) Although the AI only case is about 500-600 DPS higher than the AS/AI mixed case, I recommend the mixed case since it works better in actual game play with a lot of movement and interruption effects.

buzzerbeater · 01/05/12, 5:54 PM

Hey,

thanks a lot for the great answers! Was wondering because of that.

But now I have no clue what to do with that hunter. He is already saying that his shot rotation is complicated... while only using instant AI SS and CS. If I understand you, the overall loss is -+ 2k? Should show him those numbers, maybe he will change his mind.

I will just show him this post, because there is everything he needs.

Just found an additional question.

In optimal MM Settings the theoretical DPS is higher compared to SV, where i can only reach around 34848.23.
I know reforging would change it by a fair bit, but i dont think it could out dps MM. I hope i havn't overlooked a lot of details again. Because the general performance of hunter speccs is SV>MM.

Whitefyst · 01/05/12, 6:52 PM

Originally Posted by buzzerbeater

In optimal MM Settings the theoretical DPS is higher compared to SV, where i can only reach around 34848.23.
I know reforging would change it by a fair bit, but i dont think it could out dps MM. I hope i havn't overlooked a lot of details again. Because the general performance of hunter speccs is SV>MM.

Well, personally I am not sold that SV > MM is terms of potential DPS currently.

All the sims that I have looked at still show MM > SV theoretically.

The reasons that I believe that SV DPS is coming out on top in logs currently is the following:

- The SV rotation is easier to play. It requires 1 less ability to perform it. Its focus dumps never change. Its rotations do not change much with haste levels beyond doing extra shots of those they are already doing. It has no major buff that it has to keep the uptime up on that affects its shot selection. It has less reliance on haste. Its damage is not frontloaded over the first 10% of boss health. Hence, I believe that it is easier for the SVs to be closer to their slightly lower DPS potential than MMs can be to their slightly larger DPS potential.

- While a well performed MM rotation should perform better on a single target standstill fight where MMs can take full advantage of the CA phase while hasted with RF and can take full advantage of all the haste effects, SV should perform better on fights with a lot of target switching where the CA phases are short and often without haste effects available. Some of the DS fights are better suited to the MM still of play, but many suit the SV style better, resulting in another factor making it easier for SVs in general to be closer to their maximum DPS potential in practice.

- Player skew. If more of the top players are playing a particular spec, it is going to make that spec seem like it performs better although that may or may not be the case. Some players like SV more, and if the DPS from both are close enough, they will choose to play SV. If current community belief is that SV is better DPS, then more of the top players will play it, resulting in kind of a self-fulling prophecy. Furthermore, most raids are 10-man raids that may have difficulty always providing the haste buff, which SV can provide. If SV and MM DPS is comparable, then more players may be playing SV to provide their raids with more options for the physical haste buff. It seems to me that are larger portion of the top players are now playing SV than MM when it used to be the other way around before the SV buffs and T13 benefits. This skews the observed DPS of the 2 specs relatively.

Lilbitters · 01/06/12, 4:16 AM

As much as it would seem reasonable to rely strictly on FemaleDwarf or SimCraft, you still just can't see XX,XXX DPS and take that for granted. Dragon Soul heavily favors Survival over Markmanship on most fights just from encounter design by things that aren't really simulated in spreadsheets.

I used to be a strictly MM player ever since SV was nerfed earlier in Cataclysm, and likewise, hadn't played it at all since then until we started progression on Heroic Yor'sahj. Then after noticing how well other hunters were performing on fights where I initially didn't think SV would have an advantage, I decided to give it a try and instantly saw a considerable DPS increase.

I've experimented with Haste stacking for nearly all hardcasted Aimed, Matrix Restabilizer min haste for proc stacking, the traditional 1235 haste, as well as playstyle adjustments (such as carefully monitoring timers and ICDs to spread haste effects like Rapid Fire 1, Rapid Fire 2, Berserking, then 4pc.T13 for Aimed Dumping then switching to Arcane). Even though I did relatively well and parsed, it was nothing like SV. Even switching on what would normally be considered a perfect MM fight (Heroic Ultraxion), my personal DPS increased 1-2k on average every attempt from ~36k to 37-38k. Now after getting Wrath of Unchaining and more Heroic gear with even more Agility, it feels like the gap is widening.

(Just some note from my observation and personal experiences, but take it for granted and your experiences may differ.)

Multi-Dotting with Cobra refresh:
Warlord Zon'ozz (Heroic) - Depending on strategy, may be lots of movement in P2, but SV can DoT and several Eyes if needed. Still a good fight for MM though
Yor'sahj (All) - Keeping Serpent Sting on boss, Blood, and Mana Void (mainly effective on Heroic when leaving up first Void)
Warmaster Blackhorn (All) - Serpent Sting on both Drake Riders and Drakes while they flyby, and on Warmaster and Gariona in P2
Spine of Deathwing (Normal+Heroic) - Serpent Stinging all Corruption and Explosive Trap under Blood almost guarantee LNL on cooldown for burst on Tendon.
Madness of Deathwing (All) - Keeping Sting on Mutated Corruption and Claw/Arm is very easy

Periods of AoEing:
Yor'sahj (All) - AoEing Forgotten Ones is a HUGE part of the damage on this fight, especially on Heroic
Hagara (Normal+Heroic) - AoE on Ice Tombs (moreso in 25man) as SV is a big boost, but I'd say this is one of MM's best fights of Dragon Soul
Madness of Deathwing (All) - Spellweaving with SV Mastery and AoE on Corrupted Bloods and Elementium Fragments is a considerable DPS boost over MM

Heavy movement or cast interruption:
Morchok (Normal+Heroic) - SV has more instants and less casted spells and has to switch to AotFox less
Yor'sahj (All) - Lots of movement every time the Bloods spawn, but most of that is mitigated by Disengage in either case
Ultraxion (Normal+Heroic) - Heroic Will for Fading Light or Hour of Twilight can cut into Haste procs and SV has more DoT damage ticking while phased
Warmaster Blackhorn (All) - Lots of moving into Twilight Onslaught/Barrage and avoiding Charges (and fire on heroic), so MM would suffer from having to cancel casts pretty often or stay in AotFox for long periods of time

Sunderwhere · 01/06/12, 6:35 AM

I'm encountering an interesting issue with FD on my hunter. (Profile name is Freebowjobz)

I am currently 57 Hit Rating over hitcap, however my neckpiece allows me to reforge that exact amount of hit into either Haste or Mastery.

When I reforge it to Haste I only gain 3.4 DPS, even though Haste is worth 2.380 DPS, and even after I gain the 57 Haste, it is still valued at 2.902 DPS.
When I reforge it to Mastery, I gain 84.55 DPS, when Mastery is worth 1.483 DPS.

I am stumped as to why this disparity is happening. Could someone shed some insight as to what I'm doing wrong (if anything)?

Nooska · 01/06/12, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Sunderwhere

I'm encountering an interesting issue with FD on my hunter. (Profile name is Freebowjobz)

I am currently 57 Hit Rating over hitcap, however my neckpiece allows me to reforge that exact amount of hit into either Haste or Mastery.

When I reforge it to Haste I only gain 3.4 DPS, even though Haste is worth 2.380 DPS, and even after I gain the 57 Haste, it is still valued at 2.902 DPS.
When I reforge it to Mastery, I gain 84.55 DPS, when Mastery is worth 1.483 DPS.

I am stumped as to why this disparity is happening. Could someone shed some insight as to what I'm doing wrong (if anything)?

What you are "doing wrong" is reading the value the wrong way most likely. The valuation is, I believe, derived from the stats you have (and how much they contribute at your exact gearing).
If FD indeed presents the valuation from prediction of further stats, then it is broken in valuing haste (even with "haste is worth different values at different amounts") - trust the result rather than the valuation, the result is "simmed", the valuation is merely calculated (either backwards or forwards).

Whitefyst · 01/06/12, 1:08 PM

There are other items to understand concerning haste.

First, is how haste actual affects you in game for an ideally performed rotation for MM. Your DPS does not actually change linearly or even via any other continuous function with single haste rating increases. Instead, your DPS changes with discrete jumps when certain haste points are reached. For the vast majority of haste rating +1 increases, your actual DPS does not change at all. Your DPS only increases at discrete haste points where any of the following occur:
- You gain an extra autoshot. One may assume that as you increase haste that you always continuously increase your number of autoshots at discrete haste points. This is not necessarily true for MMs due to the AI hardcast lockout of autoshots. Each AI hardcast removes autoshots from the shot profile. Haste levels that allow another AI to be squeezed in will have a large DPS bump due to the DPS from the AI versus the alternative shot but will also have a smaller decrease in autoshot DPS. Haste points push your AI cast time over the cast time threshold for whether to cast it or not under various dynamic haste situations results in multiple AIs added into the shot selection and multiple autoshots removed.
- You gain an extra pet melee. Similar discrete jumps as with autoshot but without any ability that locks it out for a while.
- You have reduced cast times enough to be able to squeeze in an additional shot over the course of the fight or each cycle. This is generally a discrete increase in DPS, but in some situations can be a discrete loss in DPS due to downstream ramifications of adding the additional shot.
- The haste results in additional focus at a certain time which allows you to be able to use a focus dump at that time that you were not able to previously perform. This changes your shot selection and could potentially have positive or negative impacts on the overall DPS.
- How haste directly affects pet’s focus level and indirectly affects pet focus level via the number of focus dumps you perform and Sic’Em procs and GftT procs from additional autoshots. This impacts your pet’s WH uptime and DPS.

Hence, most haste +1 increases have no theoretical change to your DPS, but certain discrete ones cross any of the thresholds causing either positive or negative impacts to overall DPS.

The next item is to try to understand how FD works in this regards. I know that I do not completely understand it myself. Here is what I have observed, and I am sure that Zeherah can provide much more insight. The table below illustrates what happens in FD with haste rating +1 changes for your character starting with your neck no reforged.

Haste Change	DPS Change	Haste +1	Comment
1 to 15	0.65	2.381
16	0.65	3.241
17 to 21	0.65	2.824
22	0.65	2.824	gained an autoshot
23 to 29	0.65	2.824
30 to 38	0.65	2.836
39	-30.2	2.46	lost a CS and gained a SS, KS, and a pet melee
40 to 55	0.65	2.461
56	0.65	3.319
57 to 60	0.65	2.902

As can be seen over the 60 haste rating steps, there was only one discrete change in DPS. The other 59 steps did not have 0 DPS change as one would expect in actual game play. Instead, the FD results increased DPS by 0.65 DPS per rating step. I am not 100% sure on why this happens, but my guess is that FS includes in the DPS fractions of autoshots and pet melee attacks. Although the number of autoshots and pet melee attacks do not change on most of the steps, their DPS changes on each step. Furthermore, an extra autoshot was performed at +22 haste rating, but no DPS jump occurred, making me believe that the fraction of the autoshot was already being included.

At 39 haste rating, there is a discrete change in DPS. In this case it is a negative change. The shot timings worked out here such that the rules allowed the first KS to be performed a few seconds earlier allowing an extra 1 to be performed at the end. In the process, the extra KS resulted in a loss of a CS and an extra SS being performed to maintain ISS with where the KSs were performed.

During the complete range the Haste Rating +1 amount is always off from the actual DPS gains by on average by a factor of 4 and was never really impacted much by the DPS loss at 39 haste rating. I am not sure how FD currently calculates the haste rating +1 data. It definitely is not looking at just the last 50 or next 50 points. I know that Zeherah has shared this before, but I cannot remember what was said or whether it has since changed again.

Oh and one suggestion. In the linked FD case, the pet has 1 SA and 1 WH with saturated 100% WH uptime. I suggest moving the point from SA into WH for more DPS.

Ristoril · 01/07/12, 5:38 PM

Noticed today that Vishanka may been hot fixed recently and is now working off ranged crit instead of spell crit. From the small 5min test on a dummy it was doing around 37% crit instead of the usual 20ish that i normally see

Rivkah · 01/08/12, 1:53 AM

Thanks for the report Ristoli on the Vishanka proc. I was able to confirm the change to physical crit as well. I also confirmed that LFR Vishanka is based off 15 sec ICD (someone had told me it might be 25 sec ICD unlike the others but it's not).

While updating the mechanics for Vishanka, I noticed some other issues with the way I had the damage procs supported so I've tweaked them to be more accurate. The physical crit modifier was being applied to spell based procs instead of the spell crit one so I addressed that, and i also made sure other damage multipliers were applied consistently. It's possible some do apply to some procs and not others, but I don't have details on it so I'm going to assume the standard ones like 3% dmg and noxious stings and culling the herd apply consistently.

I still plan to add PTR support for the arcane shot change, but that will take some more time as the mechanics of arcane shot interacting with lock and load are somewhat complex. Not sure if I'll have time to get to that this weekend.

I'm also working on setting up a simulationcraft profile export, but I still need to do some tweaks on it as well as there are complicated shot priority mechanics and settings to support. I may just decide to just use a shot priority template and the default settings and let the user customize as needed, since I figure the gear/talent/glyph configuration is the most important thing.

Rivkah · 01/09/12, 12:21 AM

I've added support on the site for all the new 4.3.2 changes announced. To enable them you'll need to turn on the PTR support setting. I'm assuming 35% bonus to hawk means the new RAP for it is 2700- if it turns out to be different on the actual PTR server I'll update it.

pichuca · 01/09/12, 9:23 AM

Originally Posted by gabo03

I cant find this option...

Is the last one in the Shot Priority section.

Have been playing with the new changes on FD and noticed almost a ~2600DPS increase as SV and 1200DPS as MM, virtually closing the gap between both specs (less than 200 DPS difference in favour of MM). Also BM is now +- 1K dps behind both SV and MM
Those are the FD setups with my own character

MM Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer (HC hungerer and normal compass)
SV Zeherah's Hunter DPS Analyzer (normal matrix & normal compass)

Im logged right now on the PTR but the changes are not yet implemented to test them live.
edit: Also AS keeps eating LnL charges despite of the tooltip already being changed.

razzghul · 01/09/12, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by Rivkah

I've added support on the site for all the new 4.3.2 changes announced. To enable them you'll need to turn on the PTR support setting. I'm assuming 35% bonus to hawk means the new RAP for it is 2700- if it turns out to be different on the actual PTR server I'll update it.

Would this change make each point in one with nature worth 270ap as well, giving us an extra 910ap if it goes live?