Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Hunters

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10/20/10, 10:58 PM   #16
Weyard
Glass Joe
 
Weyard's Avatar
 
Orc Hunter
 
Thunderlord
I thought that problem was with incorrect weapon damage not about the weapon speed. So would your shots hit hard with 271 LK bow over 277 zod?

Offline
Old 10/20/10, 11:37 PM   #17
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
There are two separate issues. One was that some weapons were initially getting much higher dps than they should have for their ilevel (due to an issue with the way the ammo conversion was applied to some weapons). This problem was resolved within a day or two of 4.0.1 coming out.

The second issue is that shots affected by weapon damage are not normalized for speed, so slower weapons will contribute more damage to those shots. Previous to 4.0, steady shot was fully normalized for speed so although the other shots weren't completely (the AP portion was normalized but the weapon damage portion wasn't) it was less of a factor. There's been no indication by Blizzard that the consider the current implementation to be a bug or problematic (or any explanation as to why steady was de-normalized), so it's unclear if they'll address it at any point or if slow weapons will continue to dominate in the future.

Last edited by Rivkah : 10/21/10 at 3:13 PM.

Offline
Old 10/21/10, 12:32 AM   #18
Erlen
Glass Joe
 
Worgen Death Knight
 
Scilla
Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
Previous to 4.0, steady shot was normalized for speed so although the other shots weren't...
Since a patch in Vanilla all shots have had their weapon damage normalized. Steady Shot was still different in that when Ammo DPS was to the damage calculation for Wrath they also normalized it. I would think that the removal of normalization would be a very large bug because I doubt they would want to return to where a very slow blue is much better than a faster epic, which is why it was changed in the first place.

Offline
Old 10/23/10, 6:04 PM   #19
Reejerey
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Quel'dorei
There's a good chance that the lack of weapon damage normalization is intended, as all melee classes function that way.

If I understand it correctly, previously shot damage was based on weapon dps and now its based on weapon damage? As long as attack power is normalized, this isn't necessarily a bad change, it just means hunters will favor slower weapons like pretty much every other physical damage class/spec does currently, with rogues being slightly oddball because of poisons and dual wield and wanting fast offhands for dp and the like.

Proper itemization prevents hunters from having the option of using an extremely slow blue wep vs a faster epic, just don't put really slow blues in the game.

Offline
Old 10/23/10, 6:25 PM   #20
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
The shot damage formulas for shots with weapon damage contribution seem to look something like this:
((WeaponDPS + (AP)/14) * WeaponSpeed) + ((AP) * ShotAPModifier) + ShotBaseDamage

This means the AP factors in twice, once modified by weapon speed, and once as a flat value. The flat value is not the problem. The issue is the first part of the equation where the AP value is modified by the weapon speed instead of a normalized amount. It means the AP contribution to the weapon damage will fluctuate significantly based on speed.

According to this math, if you have a 300dps weapon and 9k AP, a difference in .1 speed will amount to a 94 damage difference in the shot damage before calculating in any multipliers.

Offline
Old 10/24/10, 8:32 AM   #21
Nyth_
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Reejerey View Post
There's a good chance that the lack of weapon damage normalization is intended, as all melee classes function that way.

If I understand it correctly, previously shot damage was based on weapon dps and now its based on weapon damage? As long as attack power is normalized, this isn't necessarily a bad change, it just means hunters will favor slower weapons like pretty much every other physical damage class/spec does currently, with rogues being slightly oddball because of poisons and dual wield and wanting fast offhands for dp and the like.

Proper itemization prevents hunters from having the option of using an extremely slow blue wep vs a faster epic, just don't put really slow blues in the game.
Only this is not the case.
Apart from enh shamans (although I don't know how that changed after WotLK) all melee dps have their weapon normalized.
And it SHOULD be, because an instant special is totally independent on weapon speed. Faster weapons can't use instants more often than slower weapons.

The reason most classes still prefer that slower weapons is simply because of the average weapon damage.
Saying that shot damage shifted from weapon dps to weapon damage is a bit of mistake. The only thing that changed is that people simplified the formula, so it seems there is something different when there is not.

Basically the formula is as follow for normalized damage (normalized speed is 2.8):

Shot Damage = Weapon Damage + ( AP / 14 * 2.8 ) + ( AP * ShotAPModifier ) + Static Shot bonus

Now Weapon damage is a range, which is the main reason you see differences between individual shots; so for convenience sake we often go for average weapon damage. There are 2 ways to obtain this:
1. Average Weapon Damage = ( Min Damage + Max Damage ) / 2
2. Average Weapon Damage = Weapon DPS * Weapon Speed

Take number 2 and substitute that into the formula and you get:

Shot Damage = (Weapon DPS * Weapon Speed) + ( AP / 14 * 2.8 ) + ( AP * ShotAPModifier ) + Static Shot bonus

That's the normalized formula. Take the unnormalized formula and you get:

Shot Damage = (Weapon DPS * Weapon Speed) + ( AP / 14 * Weapon Speed ) + ( AP * ShotAPModifier ) + Static Shot bonus

Now you can simplify that (due to underlined common multipliers) to this:

Shot Damage = (Weapon DPS + (AP / 14)) * Weapon Speed + ( AP * ShotAPModifier ) + Static Shot bonus

In the end though you're still talking about a shot consisting of a summation of 4 factors:
1) Average Weapon Damage
2) General AP contribution
3) Shot dependent AP contribution
4) Static Shot bonus

Now 1 is part of the reason why even with normalized numbers people still prefer slower weapons for instants. Because that number will always be higher.

Nr 2 should ideally be normalized to make sure that the damage is consistent for all hunters. The only exceptions are when the actual ability can be increased or decreased depending on speed. Like auto attack (faster weapons attack more often); on next hit abilities (like the old heroic strike); speed dependent procs (like the old windfury; where faster procced more often but hit for less).
Keeping this normalized always gives you 20% of your RAP as bonus damage; getting this unnormalized however causes huge disparities.
For example the difference between a 2.8 weapon and a 3.0 weapon with 14000 RAP is 200 damage. That might not seem like much but that's an 7,14% increase from AP contribution just because you picked a slower weapon.
A disparity like that might cause a seemingly inferior slow weapon to outclass a superior fast weapon.

Number 3 is of course shot dependent; as is 4

Offline
Old 11/25/10, 5:52 AM   #22
hleusink
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Eonar (EU)
Has anyone been able to verify if the focus regeneration bug has been fixed as of patch 4.0.3a?

Offline
Old 11/25/10, 8:06 PM   #23
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by hleusink View Post
Has anyone been able to verify if the focus regeneration bug has been fixed as of patch 4.0.3a?
If you mean the bug with windfury/hunting party/etc. reducing focus regen instead of increasing it, no it's still broken, I just doublechecked. Improved serpent sting has been fixed to be based off physical hit, crit and crit dmg multiplier, and pets now properly inherit AP the hunter receives from % AP buffs. Those are the main bugs I know of that were fixed in 4.0.3a.

The ravager debuff being affected by diminishing returns, draenei hit buff not being inherited by pets and most likely other bugs I'm forgetting are not fixed in 4.0.3a. Also, aimed shot from procs is based off 95% weapon damage whereas aimed shot from slow cast is based off 100%.

Offline
Old 11/25/10, 9:31 PM   #24
26thraider
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
Also, aimed shot from procs is based off 95% weapon damage whereas aimed shot from slow cast is based off 100%.
Might not be a true bug. One of the builds that were datamined at MMO-Champ initially contained a 95% weapondamage scaling !Aimed Shot, later the information was pulled. At the time I thought it was just faulty information, but it is in?

Offline
Old 11/26/10, 12:45 AM   #25
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
Originally Posted by 26thraider View Post
Might not be a true bug. One of the builds that were datamined at MMO-Champ initially contained a 95% weapondamage scaling !Aimed Shot, later the information was pulled. At the time I thought it was just faulty information, but it is in?
It's definitely implemented that way. If you test aimed shot you can see the damage difference between the proc version and the slow cast version (you can also see the difference in the ingame tooltips). I really find it hard to believe it's intended though given the wording on Master Marksman says nothing about the proc aimed shot doing less damage. It may be something they put in for lower levels and forgot to adjust.

Offline
Old 11/26/10, 4:07 PM   #26
26thraider
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Runetotem (EU)
Well, I think we can all agree that Master Marksman and Aimed Shot isn't exactly stellar in either fun or direct value, so it is a rather puzzeling place (and way) to weaken shots. But I'm not in agreement with the low level 'nerf', since a loss of 5% weaponscaling isn't going to make the shot go from overpowered to acceptable. However, we might need a low level Hunter to check these things out.

Offline
Old 11/28/10, 12:35 AM   #27
Rivkah
Great Tiger
 
Dwarf Hunter
 
Stormrage
I've added experimental support for the new armory (for US and EU users). Note that since the data is in HTML format, the parsing is pretty fragile and there may be some issues. If you notice any problems please send me a PM. The plus side is that the reforging import should work now.

Offline
Old 12/04/10, 7:49 PM   #28
Caecian
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Hunter
 
Silvermoon
Has the min/max on max level cata professions been mathed out yet? Strongly contemplating dropping skinning (keeping LW) for something, but I can't decide what.

Offline
Old 12/05/10, 5:42 AM   #29
danshot
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Boulderfist
Well LW should be #1 along with JC according to my quick math just using weighted values at femaledwarf.com

Offline
Old 12/05/10, 8:20 AM   #30
Nyth_
Piston Honda
 
Troll Hunter
 
Moonglade (EU)
It's really hard to value the use of some professions though. Especially engineering. It is stat wise the worst profession, but things like rocket boots have some value on fights. And in cataclysm there are a couple of fights where they could come in really handy.

Offline
Closed Thread

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Hunters

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hunter FAQ Cataclysm Edition (read this before asking questions) Rivkah Hunters 0 01/19/10 7:10 PM