We're not even remotely close to 15k average AP atm. BiS MM is 8159 AP. 30% increase of that is 10607.

Plus, the icc buff increases damage done... not AP.

The question isn't really where the points are coming from, but why you are in such a poor position that you require 6 extra yards to hit the boss. There are very few fights with such a mass amount of movement that would take you so far out of position. Every fight in ICC can/should be done while ALWAYS being within 30 yards of the boss. I honestly find it hard to get out of that range.

Goodness, I never expected an innocuous observation to turn into a heated debate!

I do run with a 2nd spec that has Hawkeye. I use it for Saurfang, Putricide and Lich King. I take the points out of Imp Hunter's Mark, seemingly logical as the range is only used for target swapping.

On Saurfang Hawkeye lets me hit knocked back adds.
On Putricide I can turret between both gas cloud locations, feigning off any volatile ooze injections.
On Lich King I don't use Hawkeye to dps Lich King (Although we do when all adds are dead earlier on in transitions), I do use Hawkeye for 41 yard Tranq shots, killing orbs, but most importantly for Vile spirits. 51 yard kill shots across the platform save lives.


Putricide Kill Sans-Hawkeye
95.5% @ 7560dps without hawkeye

Putricide Kill with Hawkeye
99.9% @ 9657dps with Hawkeye

Although the parses are 2 weeks apart, my autoshots are only showing a 7% dmg increase, yet my damage done and active dps time skyrocketed with hawkeye by 22% dmg and 4.4% aDPS.

To answer NebelWerfer's question about where I was pulling the rDPS numbers on Lich King, I was using World of Log's median Kill dps listing. Don't get me wrong, I think that with more Heroic loot Hawkeye's benefit will become obsolete. However, while learning encounters, and squeezing every inch of dps and maximizing my role, I'll be rolling with it as an option.

The way I see it, Hawk Eye is one of those "utility" talents where taking it will always result in 0 DPS gain on a theoretical ideal tank-and-spank fight. However, on non-ideal fights the usefulness of those talents is largely dependent on the strats and executions of each guild and also each hunter, and as such there will never be an absolute verdict on whether those "utility" talents are going to be a DPS increase or not. It might be a big help for hunters in guilds who are learning an encounter, or in hard modes. It might not be an increase at all for hunters in other guilds who are farming the same encounter.

Just as a comparison, Improved Tracking talent was and is always going to be a DPS increase when doing Ulduar hard modes, no matter when you were geared in Ulduar gear, or when you are doing Ulduar right now for fun run. However, Hawk Eye was a big help for everyone learning Ulduar back then, especially on several hard modes, but will hardly be an increase when you are doing fun Ulduar hard mode runs these days. Same with Wild Hunt vs. Heart of the Phoenix pet talent argument for Mimiron hard mode.

As such, we can safely leave the usefulness and DPS increase of those utility talents to the discretion of each individual hunter. There is a reason that most range DPS classes have some sort of range-increasing talent in their talent trees, and that is always going to go back to utility vs. power arguments, except probably warlocks (with whom taking a range talent will result in different range for their curses and destruction spells, unless they take both range-increasing talents).

Not getting hit by Malleable Goo twice on that second parse probably had a much more significant effect. It essentially means that for 40 seconds of the fight your steady casts were 5 seconds long - I'd suggest this was a much larger effect on your active DPS time increase (and therefore DPS) than Hawkeye was. Not only that, but you also got Choking Gas in the first parse, reducing your chance to hit by 75%, again a massive DPS loss. Basically you're showing us that, through not getting debuffed, you've produced a much better parse two weeks after the first. Congratulations on the increase - but I think you're putting it down to a factor which certainly wasn't the large difference between the two results.

Since when did Vile gas do that? Also goo was only on him for 30s and not 40s. Try not to exaggerate.

So as to whether hawk eye helped him or not? It certainly looks like it did, since he didn't get hit with bad stuff? Would better play have done the same thing? Quite probably.

Is getting hit by all that bad stuff going to affect his active time on target? No not at all. Which is the point of his argument. His active time increase, resulting in dps increasing. While other factors also contributed to his dps increase you cannot discount his active time.

You also forgot that he was in viper for about 1/3rd longer in the lower dps parse, and interestingly enough regen'd less mana than he did on the higher dps parse.

Apologies on the Vile Gas, I in fact meant Choking Gas - Spell - World of Warcraft, and should have checked that before replying. I also looked at the applications of Goo and thought of 20 seconds per application (as it is on heroic mode) instead of the 15 per application on normal mode.

If your attack speed is slowed, then yes, it is going to reduce your active time. Casting nothing for over 3 seconds will result in exactly that - time doing nothing. Malleable Goo - Spell - World of Warcraft.

My point is exactly this - the two parses can't begin to be compared due to other factors. Hawkeye didn't give him a 2k dps boost, nor more time on target. Better play did. To paraphrase what markovicous stated - better play and better positioning will result in a much more substantial DPS gain.

I was finally able to verify 2 things I'd been meaning to test out.

Deterrence does not prevent damage from Defile or Vile Spirit's Spirit Burst.

There are still a number of things to test out, particularly on the final 3 ICC encounters, so please check the list and if you have an opportunity to verify one or more of them or have anything to say that isn't included on the list post it here so I can include it.

If you are referring to Acid Burst: Acid Burst - Spell - World of Warcraft

Then it's been tested and it does work in preventing the DoT and the explosive damage.

New information: On the Rotface encounter, If you are feign'd when the disease is cleansed off of you the small ooze will not spawn.

I know it's not really an issue but I had that idea that since SV has no interrupts for inside Frostmourne, for that fight you could move 1 pet talent point into Charge and if you use it at the right time, it should interrupt yes?