I saw these comments in the marks thread and thought it wasn't worth posting there, this is a seperate thread however and I have tanked it as a hunter, an actual tank and have also healed a hunter tank on my priest so thought I'd post pros/cons I saw. Seems the poster has been banned anyhow so no real need for me to reply.

Regarding my Queen question I realise serpent sting needs to be reapplied, was just wondering how the damage buff interacted with other damage buffs.

Edit: Thank you for the reply arrowd.

I volunteered to be our Tank for Keleseth last night after our lok seemed to be having issues moving to get orbs. My issue is a bit different in that I cant keep them from leaving me lol.

The only issue I really have with tanking him is keeping threat on orbs. For some reason (I am thinking melee was using some form of AOE) 3 orbs ripped right off of me and start going to other people. I then ate a shadow lance to the face and that was that. We did get him under 250K health that attempt though. So close but no cigar.

I generally open up with a Dist Shot on Keleseth, then kill shot spam the rest of the time in between gathering orbs. Ill get the orbs with a Dist Shot then a SrS to keep a little threat rolling. I am typically fine untill melee comes over then the orbs start going away from me or die off. Is there anything you guys can think of that I can do to help keep these orbs on me?

My health is fine, I sit dead on 35K with PvP gear and a rented tank trink . Keeping orbs on me is the only issue I seem to be having. Even with MD's they are getting ripped off me, so something has to be going on... I do know that they decay as well, so thats not a suprise on my end.

Does anyone have any tips for Bite rotation on blood queen. My guild has shadow priests get bitten first, so both tanks and the first Spriest get tricks + Misdirect in the beginning to make sure the Spriest is 3rd on threat and the tanks are top 2. The other Spriest is getting bitten second. The next bites go to me and the highest melee dps (rogue).

So I was wondering if anyone else has a better bite rotation, or is this the best opener?

Tell your AOE'ers to stop using cleave attacks. The orbs function in the way that they will "attach" to the last person to attack them, so if consecrate or DnD ticks, or they use multishot, or shadow nova, blast wave, etc., etc., they will pull the nuclei off you.

If nobody else is hitting orbs, they shouldn't be leaving you since they appear to target the last person who attacked it. Personally, I've tanked as a shadow priest and fire mage using a rank 1 instant dot to pick up orbs with no problems. The orbs do die somewhat fast, so besides the initial pull you won't have much time to focus on building threat since there's always an orb to grab.

Bite order shouldn't really be class-based, with the exception perhaps of the shadow priests (their single target is fairly high with 4t10 and vampiric embrace should help raid healing significantly with essence). What your guild is doing seems fine. Just hit your highest damage dealers with it first, if possible try to get a melee and ranged as the first two, then let melee bite each other and ranged do the same (should be a slight dps increase due to less moving needed).

10 or 25s? I'm assuming 25s.

It makes sense to have a shadow priest get bitten first since the buff increases their damage by 200% which in turn, with VE up, will heal for a crap ton in a fight where there is a lot of AOE raid damage. However, for us we just went with highest DPS first (me), then the mage because he had a lower healthpool, but did decent damage. The theory behind him getting bitten second was to make him self sustaining with healing so he would get killed. Lo and behold, the first attempt we tried it that way we killed her.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

All things being equal ranged bite ranged, melee bite melee, highest DPS is bitten first (taking into account pet damage). I take the first bite and then bite a rogue, its very easy to setup the order from there, shadow priests tend to get the last bite as they arn't top half of the guild's DPS.

Hmmm now do the nuclei have a threat table or does it go as you stated above and simply target whoever hit it last...

Ill just try and move myself a bit further back so hopefully anything the melee are doing wont hit nuclei on our next attempt.

Thinking about it, anything that will gen more threat will probably create more damage which in turn will cause the nuclei to decay quicker which I do not want...

Time to play with some of the ranks and work on a bit better placement it seems.

I don't see it being based primarily on threat, because in that case healers would have the nuclei on them much more frequently that I've experienced. It *may* choose it's initial target based on some combination of proximity and threat, but simply hitting a dark nucleus once should put it on you until it dies or is attacked by another player.

What you *may* be experiencing is that some of the orbs you distracting shot are not being hit by any other attack of yours, and as such they change targets based on whatever other mechanism is used for selecting a target. Dealing damage seems to be the best way to get them to stick to you, and it doesn't need to be a lot.

Our "bite order" is usually me, then a rogue. Rogue bites a fury warrior, while I bite another hunter. After that its just kinda spread, melee bite melee, ranged bite ranged. We try to make sure that no dps with an "execute" get left out to ensure we maximize it under 20%.

On a side note, I'm not entirely sure how the first bite mechanic works, but after some testing I found a few things that might help set up a "rotation". We had one attempt where I was ToT and MD'd at the start. I did little dmg but was 2nd on threat with the off tank mirrored and I did not get the initial bite. I had been watching recount at the time and the arcane mage who was 5th on threat at 10 seconds but was 1st on dmg got targeted for the initial bite. I never got MD'd again, but was always sure I was number 1 dmg done after 10 seconds of the pull and was always bitten from there on regardless of my threat. Many times I was 5th or 6th on threat due to me MD'ing the maintank. I guess my conclusion from those observations is that the highest dmg ends up being targeted for the first bite. I know storys of holy paladins being targeted, but maybe it has since been changed to this current setup. Hell, maybe it is a combination of the two. Any observations would be helpful along with feedback.

For the Blood Queen's fight, is popping Deterrence about a second before the fear going be useful? If it does, which part of the air phase does it stop? The fear, the individual bloodbolt damage, the AOE part of the bloodbolts, or all of them?

I recommend using Serpent Sting in combination with a mouse-over macro (I believe there are some in the hunter macro thread) to gain and keep aggro on the nuclei. That way if by some chance someone tags one of your nuclei, the DoT effect will bring it back to you. The mouse-over macro will allow you to continue to auto shot Keleseth (there by continuing to generate threat on him) even if 100% of your attention is on gathering the orbs. It also helps that SS doesn't have a CD.

I personally wouldn't recommend bothering to downgrade either, as it takes SS a little while to do as much dmg as even 1 auto shot, and with a mouse-over macro, you won't be auto shot'ing the nuclei. I haven't had any problems keeping 5 or 6 nuclei alive and aggro'd to me during the empowered phases.

I personally use Scorpid sting. They die fast enough without the additional dot.

This is a good decision, as is silencing shot if it's off cooldown, you can use it between casts of other shots and it has low damage, making it a great shot to use when you need an orb in a hurry. I feel it can't be too much to ask of people to not hit the orbs, the only problem I run into is when the mages who bring me the *very* far away orbs get a little over zealous and take it away from me, thinking someone else grabbed it off them.

Next week i have to tank Keleseth in our 10 man grp and i thought abount using the Raptor Strike glyph for the fight in combination with a fast one hand weapon, so that i can spam raptor strike on the nuclei while hitting the boss with kill shot. so i would get 20% dmg less, because of the glyph.
has anyone tested this before?

I applaud the innovation, but only 50% uptime of a 20% dmg reduction seems weak, especially considering that you are actively shortening the lifespan of the Dark Nuculei by beating on them. Doing the fight normally yields an overwhelmingly secure safety net solong as the Keleseth tank gets early cooldowns when sans-nuculei and runs around like a freak picking up orbs.

Despite the fact that I love me some Hunter tanking, Warlocks and Shadow Priests are far better suited for this job, with better damage reduction and much higher healing recieved.


Hunter Tips for ICC though! back to topic


Trash: A pre-emptive Explosive Trap & Misdirection for the Trap-packs in Plague wing is handy, but will save the lives of the afk folk from the miniboss dogs everyone wanted to kill. Disarming blood knights saves lives. Trapping Crimson Hall mobs saves lives, especially pulls with Tacticians.

Morrowgar: Multi off Morrowgar will hit bone spikes in melee Range (where everyone should be). This nets a decent dps gain and means you help out!. Disengage is the biggest dps increase of any of your abilities on this fight.

Deathwhisper: Chimera Disarming Deformeds saves lives. Another Disengage-off-GCD abusing fight.

Gunship: If you're ArP Marks, killing Axethrower/Alliance-ranged-unit from your boat is higher dps than Volleying! Also, Marking & Shooting the Mage mid-flight while rocketing across is incredible damage and makes you feel like Chuck Norris.

Saurfang: With proper management of damage on beasts, frost traps are not necessary on this fight. 10k dps is easily achievable with pinpoint damage. Yet again another Disengage-wins-on-damage fight. Sensing a trend?

Festergut: If you can't convince your raiders that Hunters should get central locations for range, coordinate your runins with autoshot timers and Disengage back to your location.

Rotface: Don't rush to get into position, move with your autoshot. Frost trap once you've been cleansed of an injection will gain you dps time. Another Disengage on Explosion and keep hefty dps rolling fight.

Prof Putricide: Our three hunters play "who's the better killer" on Putricide by seeing who can get more Immolation traps ontop of the spawn of the Unstable experiments without losing dps time on putricide. My best sofar is 6 out of 8. Also Disengage > Running in phase 3.

Blood Princes: Coordinating hunters to keep pets on orbs is much higher dps for them. Unfortunately, this fight is 100% not a dps check in normal mode. We assign one hunter to juggle balls permanently. Despite the large amount of movement in this fight, disengage is not as incredible as it is the rest of the dungeon. Proper positioning far trumps it in efficiency.

BQL: Deterrence doesn't stop the fear, but does stop the bloodbolt whirl and aoe shadow aura damage. Regardless though, since our hunters will all have the Essence by her first Phase 2, dpsing her will heal you via the buff for as much as your deterrence would mitigate, but you're actually helping. For assuring Hunters get bit, we each (three of us) give half a Misdirection to the Main tank and dump in. She always has choosen one of the top two threat'd hunters.

7/9 Fight damage optimizations are dominated by Disengage. learn it, love it, use it.

I think you're overvaluing Disengage. In most situations it is simply optimal and more practical to move manually, in my opinion. There is some cost attached to those little jump-spins that Disengage often requires. I agree that it is semi-powerful on Lord Marrowgar, but on the other encounters I'd say it varies from weak to decent in usefulness. Some of this is strategy dependent, so I'll go through the encounters.

Lord Marrow: In Juggernaut I have our hunters sit outside the main pile(where the rest of the raid is) and off to the side right at the edge of the hunter dead-zone. Whenever Marrowgar starts to cast Bone Spike Graveyard, the hunters start moving towards the main pile. The reason for this is Bone Spikes outside of the melee pile are pretty terrible. They're going to die much slower than they would have otherwise, and it's going to cost you, and whoever has to kill your Spike, a lot of dps on Marrowgar. Anyway, the jousting process is pretty simple. I move in, hit my Raptor Strike + Mongoose Bite macro, and cast Explosive Trap. As soon as the Spikes spawn I Disengage out, and it should land me perfectly right at the edge of the dead-zone. The only problem is Disengage is only up for every other Bone Spike Graveyard, so you're going to have to run out manually for half of them.

At first I thought this encounter was going to be pretty awful for hunters, but it's actually not that bad. During hard mode testing on the PTR he was actually casting Bone Spike Graveyard during Bone Storm, resulting in your Bone Spikes potentially ending up in pretty random locations and thus not as easy to just AE down. I think if this remains the case on live servers, it could result in hunters being even better for this encounter as we're pretty good at switching to a single Spike and bursting it down.

Lady Deathwhisper: At least on normal mode, I don't think hunter disarm on Deformed mobs is really necessary or optimal. I'm pretty sure you're basically always better off just using your normal rotation and killing the mob faster, or at the very most just casting Distracting Shot. Those things have basically no health at all and I'm pretty sure every other disarm ability is less clunky than ours is.

On hard mode, who knows. Maybe disarm will end up being more important. However, even if it is, I'm pretty sure I'd just have a warrior or rogue do it regardless.

Gunship: This fight is basically just a complete joke on normal mode right now so it's hard to even begin to optimize a strategy. I basically sit on the edge shooting mobs on the enemy ship for the entire encounter. Right now there's no point in even moving to avoid rocket damage because it doesn't do enough to matter.

Deathbringer Saurfang: At least until hard modes, I've pulled our hunters off of beast killing duties and I just have the casters handle it. There are a few reasons for this. Most importantly, hunters do a huge portion of their total dps through physical damage. If you pull them off of Saurfang to kill beasts, they're going to be losing a lot of their beneficial debuffs, like Sunder Armor, Mangle, etc. The same is not true for any other range dps class, because all of the other range dps classes are casters and their debuffs go up very easily.

This same idea applies to a lot of different encounters with target-switching actually. In general, if you have any choice in the matter, it's usually best to keep all of your physical dps attacking the same target, and all of your casters attacking the same target. Now whether or not this will be possible on hard mode, I don't know. But on normal mode I just have our hunters stand about 10 yards in front of Saurfang and dps trance for the entire encounter. We do have one hunter drop a Frost Trap for each add wave, however.

Festergut: In my opinion hunters should definitely get central locations on this encounter because warlocks and mages can both teleport/Blink back to their spots with less hassle than a hunter has to go through to Disengage back. There is an argument to be made that shadow priests, elemental shaman, and/or balance druids should get the centralized locations, however. This probably comes down to whatever your specific raid composition happens to be on a given week.

Rotface: I don't find Disengage useful on this encounter at all really. With an optimal strategy and decent raid dps, you're not going to be dealing with any ooze explosions. In Juggernaut we just start using a 2nd kiter as soon as the first ooze is at the point where another merge would cause it to explode. I basically just stand at the edge of the dead-zone and dps like normal other than the occasional movement to avoid the spray ability.

Professor Putricide: I noticed you mentioned you use Immolation Trap on this encounter. As I very recently discovered(and mentioned in another thread here), Immolation Trap is actually really awful for some reason. I don't know why, but yeah. It actually does only a fraction of the damage Explosive Trap does even on a single target. So yeah, if you're going to use a trap on the ooze adds, I would suggest using Explosive Trap.

Blood Princes: I actually think this is one of the better encounters for Disengage. I use it as Empowered Shock Vortex is being cast. In 25-man it's pretty difficult to mitigate this ability unless everyone moves outward from the boss. There simply isn't enough room to avoid it on everyone otherwise, which might not be a game breaker right now, but I expect it probably will be on hard mode.

I agree with those who mentioned that hunter tanking isn't going to be a very good idea on this encounter unless your non-hunter options are all significantly worse players. There are probably at least 4 or 5 classes better suited to this role if skill level isn't a factor for you. Warlock, shadow priest, feral druid, etc. are all better choices. I'd probably say warlock is the best choice of the bunch if I had to pick one.

Blood Queen: Disengage is decent on this encounter if you're running to a centralized location to remove Pact of the Darkfallen. As far as the flight stage, I'll generally Deterrence to mitigate the damage unless I'm already a vampire. If you're a vampire during any flight stage I think it's generally better to attack through the damage.

Regarding Marrowgar, as long as you use a strat that involves people collapsing in melee at least when bone spike graveyard is being cast, I've been finding it nicer to just start volleying before the spikes spawn. It's 4 guaranteed targets, and faster DPS than going in, dropping a trap, waiting to see if they're on you or not, getting out of melee and then beginning attacks on them. If you're going to have a multishot and disengage up as they spawn though, trap + DE=>Multi might be better total damage.

Gunship I send trying to see how many serpent sting durations I can keep track of in my head, it's fun seeing Volley and Serpent sting as your top 2 abilities after the fight.

I have several specific questions pertaining to some of the encounters. I would like to apologize beforehand for the possible wall-of-text, but I hope the answers can be useful for us all.

Lady Deathwhisper: I found a harder time staying as MM for this fight, especially when tasked with adds duty. FIrstly, I will get close to OOM several times throughout the fight, to the point that I have to Viper Sting the boss several times (even though I know that SrS does better in reducing her mana shield). Secondly, it is harder for me as MM to deal with the magic-immune adds, espeically when ChimShot is on CD (I usually save Chim for boss).

Also, can mages make a better use of the vampiric buff of the deformed fanatics? I usually Tranq them, but I have been wondering if I should just let the mages spellsteal them instead.

Deathbringer Saurfang: I (together with our other hunters) tend to find a very hard time keeping the DPS high during the fight, even as SV spec but especially as MM. I agree completely with the argument that hunter should get the most priority among the ranged DPS to stay on the boss during adds-bursting fights, but I can't disregard the counter-argument that hunters can provide the most burst when it comes to adds-bursting deal (probably on par with mages). Some of the things that I think might cause that problem (and hopefully can be improved) :

We are usually tasked with controlling at least 2 of the adds each. A few seconds before Beast spawn usually goes like : run in to lay frost trap, Disengage out, when adds spawn, Distracting one add, target the other one and try to grab aggro from other ranged/healer, burst it down, retarget the first Beast, run back while avoiding the now-incoming first Beast while shooting Conc shot (because it is usually out of the trap zone by now), then back to boss. We even have to resort burning our CDs early in the fight (and therefore can't make use of BL which is usually popped after the soft-enrage), due to some leeway of staying to DPS on the boss earlier in the fight.

Especially as MM, I have harder time on the "trying to grab 2nd beast from other ranged/healer" part, probably due to the fact that I have to use 2 GCDs (serpent-CS), and also the fact that CS is on cooldown most of the time when Beasts spawn, and subsequently I can't provide the burst needed to pull the adds.

Festergut: I also have a bit of difficult time competing against the melee DPS for this fight. Now I know that this fight is tuned better for melee due to no need of much movement during spores and no Vile Gas, but the DPS discrepancy is significantly bigger than any other melee-oriented fights in the past (XT normal and hard, etc). Is this the case for you guys too? Is this discrepancy solely caused by being the unlucky targets of Vile Gas?

Rotface: I don't find any problem putting out good DPS on this fight. However, being the longest player of SV hunter in the raid (even though I have been longing to stay MM permanently during any ICC raids), I am usually the one given with Aspect of the Wild duty, due to the IAotH needs of the rest of the MM hunters. We only run with 2 shamans regularly in 25 mans, so nature totem is not really an option here.As such, I have been wondering how significant is Wild's contribution on this fight.

Professor Putricide: Previous posters mentioned about using Immo/Explo trap on the spawned ooze. However, don't you want to be at your farthest shooting range from where the green ooze spawns? I do know that we can FD it, but if we stay literally very close to the spawning ooze to drop trap, there won't be enough melee to gather around if it chooses us as the unlucky target.

Also, similar to Rotface's problem, how significant is Aspect of the Wild in reducing raid damage during phase 3?

Blood Princes: I can also agree with the previous posters that we are probably not the best ranged tank for this fight's purposes. However, in the situation where no better classes are available, we are quite equipped to deal with it. In my raid comp for example, there isn't a regular warlock (if he's in, he is the ranged tank however) or moonkin, and a single shadow priest (as such, he has to keep the 3% spell hit buff on the currently-invocated boss). It is probably not a very good idea to give this task to the squishier casters such as mages and ele shammies.

Blood Queen: So is it confirmed that pre-popping Deterrence about a second or two before fear won't deflect the fear? The reason being is that, I'm trying to squeeze some DPS up during flight phase (especially during vampire mode), but we hunters seem to be the last to break out of the fear effect. As mentioned earlier, there are usually only 2 shamans present in the raid, and as such tremor totems are usually reserved for melee and healer groups. The mages can (probably, I haven't confirmed it) iceblock out of it, and depending on first bite situation, I can't always have the fear ward, especially during the situation when more than half of the raid have become vampires.

Again, sorry for the long post. I'd like to say thank you beforehand for any helps/contributions.

Lady Deathwhisper: If you're tasked to add duty, which many hunters are, just fire off a Viper String a few seconds before each add wave spawns. I assume you are on the boss to start, then switching to the adds ~5 seconds after spawn, then going back to boss when they're dead. If that's the case, just fire Viper Sting off on the boss before switching and you'll be at full mana the entire fight. She has 14M mana, it's almost unlimited amounts of mana for you. As far as deformed adds go, just nuke them. If your tanks are on top of their game and/or you have a setup that allows them to be kited, the debuff shouldn't be a worry at all. If they're about to get close to someone, Distracting Shot is ideal since you'll be far enough away to start kiting it safely.

Deathbringer Saurfang: In your specific situation, you are simply doing too much back and forth to keep up a very high DPS output. In this situation, as long as you are doing your roll well and keeping 2 beasts on you when they spawn, you are doing a fine job. I disagree with that strategy, but if that's the way your guild does it, just keep doing your roll perfectly.

Festergut: While being targetted by a Vile Gas is a big DPS killer, hunters have the easiest time of the range, imo. While getting Vile Gas'd 5 times in a fight will give you a lower dps than the fight in which you only got Gas'd once, it's still not the only reason your melee DPS is far surpassing your ranged. Quite a number of factors involved including your raid setup and positioning among other things.

Rotface: Seems like another one of those "this is your role in our raid" things - and people claim that hunters have no raid utility! I can't claim how effective it is with numbers, but an extra 130 resist helps an enormous amount. Once your raid gets better at avoiding all the avoidable damage, it will become less and less necessary.

Putricide: Your traps have 30 second despawn times, it's still VERY easy to drop a trap and move out of range. Trap damage is so insignificant that it is almost useless to use on these mobs. Explosive will get off the initial burst and maybe one tick of the ground effect, for 2k - 4k damage. Immolation trap will be a little more effective since they'll remain on the slime as long for the full duration, or until dead, but still not worth the bother IMO. Unless you're right on top of exactly where the slime spawns, it's not worth the time spent running out of your way. And, yet again, the third phase is dealing Nature damage, and if you are the designated source, it will help. I'd like to see a totem dropped, but your shamans may have more important totems out to buff the rest of the raid. Maybe try working out a week-to-week rotation so you're not always the one getting the short end of the stick.

Blood Queen: You cannot Deterrence a fear. I don't think Iceblock works either. Both of those abilities do work on the damaging Bloodbolt (sp?) that she does while she's in the air, and if your healers are having a hard time healing through this phase, that will be a big help. Otherwise, if you are 6+ yards from people around you, don't worry about it, just keep DPS'ing. As far as the fear RNG length, there's nothing you can do about that. Basically just look for an open spot and disengage back to it ASAP to get away from people to avoid damage.

Some of your questions simply come down to how well and how fast your guild executes these fights.

For Lady Deathwhisper: Yes, if your mages have a macro ready to spell steal Vampiric Might - Spell - World of Warcraft, let them do so. Perhaps consult with them before you go there next time to know whether or not you should dispell them.
From personal experience, this encounter is trivial in normal and things generally die before the mobs become any sort of threat.
Our physical dps tends to go for the adherents since they gain Adherent's Determination - Spell - World of Warcraft when reanimated so the mages and other casters in my guild will generally take care of the Fanatics due to the reduced physical damage taken when reanimated and are free to control the spell steals.
Regarding running out of mana, this is not something I've usually experienced since our first kill, but Viper Stinging the boss is not a bad idea if you know you are going to go oom before the fight is over. We usually burn Heroism/Bloodlust on the pull to speed up phase 1.

Deathbringer Saurfang: If your guild doesn't have enough shamans to allow use of earthbind resulting in you being on trap duty, ask for a centered position. Sebudai already mentioned the optimal use of hunters for this fight, but generally you seem to be wanting to do too many things at once which shouldn't be needed if ranged dps switches to the adds when they spawn.
Sure, a distracting shot here and there is fine, but the adds should be finished off before they're able to hit anyone with proper knockback effects from boomkins, elemental shamans and possibly mages if you have none of the the first two options.
In terms of keeping your dps high, I /focus Saurfang and make sure to save my chimera shot for him to keep my serpent sting running. The same goes for Lady Deathwhisper.

Festergut: Your dps will be determined by how many times you get Vile Gas from my experience. I've peaked quite high on this fight without getting a single Vile Gas and I've dropped by more than 1000 dps when being targeted for it roughly five times. Without getting the Vile Gas, you should be able to compete with melee here given your gear levels are equal.

Rotface: Whether or not you need Aspect of the Wild depends entirely on the quality of your healers and dps avoiding the spray and not being close to the big oozes aoe aura. From personal experience, we didn't need it when we lacked a third shaman with five healers. When hard modes come out, the answer to this question will be a no-brainer, I'd imagine.

Professor Putricide: Use disengage to your advantage here and try to stay atleast 15 yards away from the boss, preferably more. It leaves you with more time to dps and react when Malleable Goo is coming your way. On this fight, you want Aspect of the Wild up if you are the only resource for it.

Blood-Queen Lana'thel: The general rule I have is to make sure disengage is ready for the airphase to give the rest of the raid room to spread out. When learning the encounter, deterrence and perhaps healthstone should probably be saved for the air phase. Add Essence of the Blood Queen - Spell - World of Warcraft to Grid or anywhere else you can to ensure you know who is bitten and who is available to recieve the (de)buff.

We're still the only class that absolutely has to stand at range. I know our boomkin stands in melee on that fight, and there's enough leeway with Vile Gas for a couple more caster DPS to do that too. Of course they also risk a large drop in DPS if they have to bring a spore out from the melee clump...as well they decrease the number of targets for Vile Spore so hunters are likely to get shafted anyway. :p