Festergut: Your dps will be determined by how many times you get Vile Gas from my experience. I've peaked quite high on this fight without getting a single Vile Gas and I've dropped by more than 1000 dps when being targeted for it roughly five times. Without getting the Vile Gas, you should be able to compete with melee here given your gear levels are equal.
You should be able to compete with them regardless of Vile Gas. Albeit from a central position, I got hit with vile gas four times in a 3:45 kill last week and still managed a touch under 12k dps - 1100 ahead of our rogue and mage. It's a case of using your cooldowns at sensible times - pop your Rapid Fire etc after a Vile Gas cast goes out, not before. That was the difference between me being 1800 ahead of our other hunter on Festergut this week. Use common sense.
Whenever Marrowgar starts to cast Bone Spike Graveyard, the hunters start moving towards the main pile. The reason for this is Bone Spikes outside of the melee pile are pretty terrible. They're going to die much slower than they would have otherwise, and it's going to cost you, and whoever has to kill your Spike, a lot of dps on Marrowgar. Anyway, the jousting process is pretty simple. I move in, hit my Raptor Strike + Mongoose Bite macro, and cast Explosive Trap. As soon as the Spikes spawn I Disengage out, and it should land me perfectly right at the edge of the dead-zone. The only problem is Disengage is only up for every other Bone Spike Graveyard, so you're going to have to run out manually for half of them.
I've tried this and ended up dropping Raptor/Mongoose out of the rotation, simply due to lack of GCDs. As soon as the bonespikes spawn I want to be channeling volley which does work fairly well since there are four targets (3 spikes plus Marrowgar). Standing at minimum range and running in as soon as the Bone Spike Graveyard cast starts, I just don't have time to use two GCDs before this (it's a three second cast, so really I have reaction time + movement time + one GCD, then start volley).
You should be able to compete with them regardless of Vile Gas. Albeit from a central position, I got hit with vile gas four times in a 3:45 kill last week and still managed a touch under 12k dps - 1100 ahead of our rogue and mage. It's a case of using your cooldowns at sensible times - pop your Rapid Fire etc after a Vile Gas cast goes out, not before. That was the difference between me being 1800 ahead of our other hunter on Festergut this week. Use common sense.
I disagree that vile gas doesnt play a large part in your output there. In your example you are lending the hunter a lot of favorable variables there that arent always present. The assumption of a very fast kill (some of us are still scraping the enrage week to week while downing him, you can get alot more than 4 pukes if your killing him right at the enrage) and also a centralized position (normally reserved for the healer we have standing outside on our runs so we can collapse on to them with the spore). Then there is always the completely uncontrollable possibility of you getting a very nice 2pc t10 proc alongside a WFS proc and a Ahsen Verdict ring proc and having all of that lead right into a puke on you. Its quite a few high damage globals lost. And it can happen more than once in a kill.
I definitely use the cooldowns appropriately, and I make sure not to over rush to get to a spore when its up, theres time to move and weave in your autoshots while creeping that way losing less dps. And on a fight like that I most certainly use a speed pot just before the pull to get the pot cooldown ticking downward letting me pot twice during the fight. But I really don't see how if its a long full 5m kill, and you soak all of what....7 or 8 pukes + movement that I should expect to keep pace with competent equally geared melee who are simply standing and going all in. There is going to be some loss there, and its likely to be noticeable.
Regarding Festergut, has anyone managed to FD out of his Vile Gas application? I see him target me as he's casting, but have as yet never managed to get an FD off before it hits me. I'm wondering whether:
a) if FD is cast soon enough, would it make him not cast Vile Gas on you
b) if he didn't cast it at you, would he just not cast it, or would be cast it at someone else (possibly the melee, causing a wipe)
Also, I do have the macros to keep my instants on Saurfang, and I can use them effectively. However, my resentment (especially with MM) is that if I want to pull aggro on the 2nd Beast, many times I won't have the instants off-CD to deal burst damage on them because both CS and AiS will potentially be on cooldown. This problem isn't as detrimental as SV, due to almost guaranteed LnL proc during Beast spawn, and 2 or 3 ES burst is more than enough to pull the 2nd Beast. Arcane Shot alone is sometimes not enough to pull off the 2nd Beast, and Steady is of course not very viable due to the cast.
Distracting shot to get the beast to attack you, and by the time the GCD is up from Distracting shot, you should have aimed/multi/CS free to get more agro
I've tried this and ended up dropping Raptor/Mongoose out of the rotation, simply due to lack of GCDs. As soon as the bonespikes spawn I want to be channeling volley which does work fairly well since there are four targets (3 spikes plus Marrowgar). Standing at minimum range and running in as soon as the Bone Spike Graveyard cast starts, I just don't have time to use two GCDs before this (it's a three second cast, so really I have reaction time + movement time + one GCD, then start volley).
I'm not convinced that Volley is actually worthwhile on this encounter, at least on normal mode. I mean, assuming the spikes are properly positioned in melee range, a lot of them will die in less than 2 seconds. In which case you could be looking at hitting these spikes with only a single tick of Volley before they die. I suspect we might be better off just immediately moving back out so we can try to get a Multi-Shot off. So unless the spikes have significantly more health on hard mode, a more fluid move in and then back out right after spikes spawn approach still seems optimal to me.
Compiled list of the effect of Hunter abilities tested during ICC encounters
This list shall contain the following format:
Ability - Encounter - <Tested> Y / <Needs to be Tested> N - Functionality being tested
Examples:
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DT - BQ - Y - Does not deflect Incite Terror
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DT - BQ - N - Deflects Bloodbolt Splashes sourced from other players.
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The 1st example says that Deterrence has been tested to deflect Incite Terror during the Blood-Queen encounter and does not deflect it.
The 2nd example says that Deterrence has not been tested yet to see if it will deflect Bloodbolt Splashes from other players being hit by Twilight Bloodbolt.
Abbreviation List - Possible Hunter Abilities
FD - Feign Death
DT - Deterrence
DE - Disengage
TS - Tranquilizing Shot
AS - Aimed Shot
SS - Silencing Shot
SC - Scatter Shot
DS - Distracting Shot
MD - Misdirection
ET - Explosive Trap
MC - Master's Call
AP - Aspect of the Pack
FA - Freezing Arrow/Trap
WS - Wyvern Sting
NA - Not a Hunter ability, line item refers to functionality not particular to any Hunter abilities
Abbreviation List - Encounters
LM - Lord Marrowgar
LD - Lady Deathwhisper
GB - Gunship Battle
DS - Deathbringer Saurfang
FG - Festergut
RF - Rotface
PP - Professor Putricide
BP - Blood Prince Council
BQ - Blood-Queen Lana'thel
VD - Valithria Dreamwalker
SG - Sindragosa
LK - Lich King Arthas
If anyone has suggestions to flesh out this list of abilities and their effects during ICC encounters then please list the results of your testing. Results can also include the effect of using certain Racials or other non-Hunter specific items but still relevant to Hunter's. Anecdotal information is not satisfactory, only solid 100% true facts. Any results should be backed up by logs whenever possible.
FD - LM - Y - Does not free you from Bone Spikes
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DT - LM - Y - Prevents damage from Bone Storm
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DT - LM - Y - Prevents damage from Coldflame
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TS - LD - Y - Does not remove Fanatic/Adherent Determination from Reanimated Fanatic/Adherent.
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TS - LD - Y - Removes 'Shroud of the Occult' magic shield from all Adherent types.
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DS - DS - Y - Can be used to force Blood Beasts to attack you for DS duration.
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FD - DS - Y - When used for Blood Beasts you may regain all threat when you pop up(Heroic only)
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ET - DS - Y - Blood Beast AE dmg reduction does not apply to the DoT effect of Explosive Traps
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MC - DS - Y - Master's Call works on the slow effect that Saurfang applies when the beasts are out. (Hard Mode)
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FD - FG - N - If used in the instant he targets you will stop a Vile Gas attack
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DT - FG - Y - Does not deflect a Vile Gas attack
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DT - FG - Y - Does not prevent damage from Gaseous Blight
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DT - FG - Y - Does not prevent damage from Pungent Blight
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DT - FG - N - Deterrence functions the same as it does for (H) Festergut as for PP encounter
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DT - RF - Y - Does not prevent damage from Slime Spray
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DS - RF - Y - Can be used to force 'Big Ooze' to follow you for DS duration
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DT - RF - N - Can be used to prevent damage from Radiating Ooze and Weak Radiating Ooze
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DT - RF - Y - Does not prevent damage and slowing effect from Ooze Flood.
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MC - RF - Y - Provides immunity to Ooze Flood slowing effect.
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FD - RF - Y - Has no impact on Small Ooze spawning off you(contrary to prev report)
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FD - PP - Y - Does not prevent you from being frozen by Tear Gas
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FD - PP - Y - Can be used when targeted by Volatile Ooze to force it to pick a new target. Ooze new target selection also takes several additional seconds. Best used in the second before the Ooze would hit you and blow everyone up.
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DT - PP - Y - Does not prevent you from being frozen by Tear Gas
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DT - PP - Y - Does not prevent you from being struck by Volatile 'Ooze Eruption'
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DT - PP - Y -- Deterrence will work on Malleable Oozes that target you directly. It will negate all damage ONLY if you are the target (and the slow casting effect), and will not affect the AoE damage (or slow effect) if you are splashed. Great help for those times you're targetted by the green ooze and Malleable'd at the same time.
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DT - BP - Y - Prevents damage from 'Shadow Lance'
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NA - BP - Y - Dark Nucleus will stick to whoever attacked them last. Use Scorpid Sting to keep them on you if tanking.
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NA - BP - Y - Pets can prevent Kinetic Bomb from landing indefinitely. Should be on passive and manually sent in to attack to accomplish this. Note that Kinetic Bombs will despawn during the encounter and your pet will need to be resent in to attack a new one.
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FD - BQ - Y - Does not prevent being hit by Incite Terror
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DT - BQ - Y - Does not prevent being hit by Incite Terror
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DT - BQ - Y - Prevents damage from Twilight Bloodbolt
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DT - BQ - Y - Prevents damage from Shroud of Sorrow
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DT - BQ - N - Prevents damage from Swarming Shadows
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DT - BQ - Y - Does not prevent damage from Pact of the Darkfallen
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DT - BQ - Y - Does not prevent damage from Bloodbolt Splash caused by other players
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DT - BQ - N - Prevents Bloodbolt Splash from happening on Twilight Bloodbolts cast on you
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DE - BQ - Y - If player is targeted by Twilight Bloodbolt during Bloodbolt Whirl, and has not yet landed, splash occurs at players original position. If Disengaging out be aware that this functionality could cause additional damage from splash to other raid members and so you should avoid Disengaging in the couple seconds prior to and during Bloodbolt Whirl for positioning to be clear.
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DT - VD - Y - Prevents damage from Lay Waste (although you should be shooting, not hiding)(Blazing Skeleton)
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DT - VD - N - Prevents damage from Column of Frost
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DT - VD - Y - Prevents damage from Acid Burst(Blistering Zombie)
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DT - VD - N - Prevents damage from Frostbolt Volley(Risen Archmage)
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DT - VD - N - Prevents damage from Gut Spray(Gluttonous Abomination)
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DS - VD - Y - Can be used to force Blistering Zombies to follow you for the duration (and the casters, technically)
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DE - SG - Y - Can be used while being Icy Grip'd to jump back sooner
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FD - SG - Y - Can be used to prevent being hit by Icy Grip
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AP - SG - Y - Frost Aura damage does not cause Daze affect from Aspect
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DT - SG - Y - Prevents damage from Frost Aura
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DT - SG - Y - Does not prevent damage from Blistering Cold
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DT - SG - N - Prevents damage from Chilled to the Bone
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DT - SG - Y - Does not prevent the application of Mystic Buffet debuff
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NA - SG - Y - Shots that cause magical damage do not proc Backlash or Chilled to the Bone
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NA - SG - Y - Icy Grip can be avoided by using the Frost Tomb to get out of LOS
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DE - LK - Y - If you are being carried by a Valk and it is killed with you in midair, you can disengage back onto the platform. However if the Valk drops you then you will be too low to Disengage back
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TS - LK - Y - Shambling Horror Enrage can and should be Tranq'd. Their enrage has a cast time.
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DT - LK - N - Prevents damage from Shockwave(shambling horror)
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FD - LK - Y - Does not prevent Hunter from being targeted by Valkyrie's
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DT - LK - N - Prevents throwback(Ice Burst) from Ice Sphere
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DT - LK - N - Prevents damage from Ice Pulse(Ice Sphere)
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DT - LK - N - Prevents damage from Pain and Suffering(Lich King)
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DT - LK - Y - Does not prevent damage from Remorseless Winter
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FD - LK - Y - Does not prevent a Raging Spirit from spawning
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DT - LK - N - Prevents damage from Soul Shriek(Raging Spirit)
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DT - LK - Y - Does not prevent damage/trigger of Defile
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DE - LK - Y - The mechanics of Disengage leave the Hunter at their original position until landing. Do not try to Disengage out of Defile or away if you get Defile
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NA - LK - Y - Turn on chat bubbles and use the DBM Alpha version to easily see who has Defile so you can move away from them
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DT - LK - Y - Does not prevent damage from Spirit Burst(Vile Spirit)
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SC - LK - Y - Does not interrupt Soul Rip
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FA - LK - Y - Does not interrupt Soul Rip
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WS - LK - Y - Does not interrupt Soul Rip
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DS - LK - Y - Does interrupt Soul Rip (you likely want to FD before the mob reaches you though)
If you're getting a longer kill than the time I stated earlier, you're also getting to cycle through a full second set of cooldowns. Because I waited until Vile Gas was out at an opportune time, I didn't get to cycle through a full readiness/rapid fire rotation a second time. Yes, a single Vile Gas debuff can cause you to lose DPS - that I'm not disputing. But, if you have a central position, you shouldn't be moving at all - that's an issue with your strategy. There's only 20 or so rogues beating out hunters at the moment on the fight according to public logs - that alone should be enough to tell you that we're fairly close - my parse isn't public and it would have slid comfortably into third.
DT - LM - N - Prevents damage from Coldflame
Does not appear to.
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FD - FG - N - If used in the instant he targets you will stop a Vile Gas attack
I was pulled out of the FD animation once, closest I was able to get. Signs point to no.
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DT - FG - N - If used in the instant he targets you will deflect a Vile Gas attack
Probably not possible, you can be Vile Gassed with DT running.
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DT - FG - N - Prevents damage from Gaseous Blight
Nope.
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DT - FG - N - Prevents damage from Pungent Blight
Did not test -- I'll try tonight.
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DT - RF - N - Prevents damage from Slime Spray
Logging was inconclusive, I'll reattempt tonight.
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DS - RF - N - Can be used to force 'Big Ooze' to follow you for DS duration
Absolutely. It is possible for hunters to be the ooze kiters (although you shouldn't).
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DT - RF - N - Can be used to prevent damage from Radiating Ooze and Weak Radiating Ooze
Did not test -- I'll attempt tonight.
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DT - RF - N - Can be used to prevent damage and slowing effect from Ooze Flood
No. Master's Call appears to work, however.
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DT - BQ - N - Prevents damage from Swarming Shadows
Does not appear to.
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DT - BQ - N - Prevents damage from Pact of the Darkfallen
Did not attempt to avoid this -- it seems like a bad idea.
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DT - BQ - N - Prevents damage from Bloodbolt Splash caused by other players
Did not attempt this because I did not hug other people.
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DT - BQ - N - Prevents Bloodbolt Splash from happening on Twilight Bloodbolts cast on you
Inconclusive (no one near me), but I believe this to be the case. More testing required.
Additionally:
DT - VD - Y - Prevents damage from Lay Waste (although you should be shooting, not hiding)
DT - VD - N - Prevents damage from Column of Frost
DT - VD - N - Prevents damage from Acid Splash
DS - VD - Y - Can be used to force Blistering Zombies to follow you for the duration (and the casters, technically)
Last edited by Serpent's Choice : 02/03/10 at 11:37 AM.
DT - FG - N - Prevents damage from Pungent Blight
Did not test -- I'll try tonight.
No I'm afraid this doesn't work. If only it did (like Shadowpriests can use Dispersion, and Mages Iceblock - and paladins Divine Shield, but they don't have to move anyway), then we wouldn't have to beg for a central spot.
Since when has deterrence worked on any sort of AoE?
Off the top of my head, it works on Light Vortex/Dark Vortex on Twin Val'kyr and Bellowing Roar on Onyxia 2.0. In ICC, it also negates all damage from Lay Waste in the Valrithia encounter. While it's logical that you can't deter the major AEs on boss encounters, logic isn't always the strong point of how Deterrence interacts with things.
Off the top of my head, it works on Light Vortex/Dark Vortex on Twin Val'kyr and Bellowing Roar on Onyxia 2.0. In ICC, it also negates all damage from Lay Waste in the Valrithia encounter. While it's logical that you can't deter the major AEs on boss encounters, logic isn't always the strong point of how Deterrence interacts with things.
I've never understood why it worked on Light/Dark Vortex since it seems arbitrary to work on it and not on a lot of other AoEs. Since you mention that it works on Lay Waste though, perhaps it works in general on channeled AoEs? Both Light/Dark Vortex and Lay Waste are channeled IIRC. The only other similarly channeled AoEs I can think of that we could test on are a warlock's Hellfire, and Magtheridon's fire thing that needs to be interrupted by cube clickers - I suppose rain of fire/volley/blizzard are also channeled AoEs, but they are also ground targetted, unlike the above.
There's a difference between AE and abilitites that hit everyone. I believe the reason Det blocks Vortex is because it is an ability that hits everyone individually and not a true AE. So while we might have a pretty good idea about whether Deterrence will work or not, we need to test it to be sure.
Originally Posted by Serpent's Choice
DT - LM - N - Prevents damage from Coldflame
Does not appear to.
Do you have a log I can look at that can confirm this and other items that you weren't sure of?
Sindragosa's Frost Aura does not cause Dazed when coupled with Aspect of the Cheetah/Pack. This is useful for when the raid gets Icy Grip cast on them, you can promptly Disengage and cast Aspect of the Pack.
It's possible to avoid Sindragosa's Icy Grip by feigning the moment when you get grip animation. Although, be warned that this seems to randomly break Icy Grip for other raiders as well. Our other ranged would sometimes not get pulled in, but melee still had to run out.
Also if gripped you don't have to wait for the animation to finish and can just disengage mid-flight.
While it is true that Disengage has lent us massive flexibility and mobility during ICC fights, be aware that character movement while Disengaging is still bound by the limited movement coding in WoW, which has led into some interesting bugs in the past. When your character is moving in a limited vertical direction (i.e. jumping, Disengaging, being Deathgripped, etc), the game only records your last position on a horizontal plane, treating it as your current real-time position. A couple situation based from my ICC experience that has led to this conclusion :
- During one Putricide phase 3 fight, I disengaged backwards to avoid an incoming malleable goo. Less than half-a-second before landing, my character died even though I am in the process of landing on a position nowhere close to where the goo is. Combat log revealed that the damage from goo killed me.
- During one BQ air phase, the Incite Fear effect won't break early, and as such I was feared close to another raider, and I promptly disengaged. While landing on an empty safe spot, Bloodbolt's splash hit both of us, causing both of us to die.
Anyone having an issue trying to drop Mystic Buffet stacks on Sindragosa (10) phase 3?
Quite a few times i'm standing out of LoS and still get hit by it (no we're not killing it to fast, getting hit when block is still 'alive')
You have to hug the block to drop the debuff, you can't stand in a position where you drop the debuff while still dpsing the block.
The good news is that the pulses are predictable, it happens every 5 seconds, debuff lasts 8 so it will always pulse at 3 seconds remaining.
Is there any special tips or tricks to allow an MM hunter to be able to compete with Surv in Valithria encounter? My performance seemed to take a big hit due to the constant target switching and also movement (to cover both left and right sides of the adds). What made it worse was the fact that I ran OOM a couple times even before reaching the middle of the fight. I finally had to respec to Surv before our successful attempt to down the boss, but would like to try MM for the upcoming weeks.
Also, for hunters, are we going to benefit much from going into the portal room? Our raid's consideration is that healers are going to benefit a lot more, and as such we allowed only healers inside the portal during our last successful attempt.
For Sindragosa, is it true that MM is going to take a larger performance hit compared to Surv? Especially due to :
- Significantly larger number of direct and physical-type attacks (more autoshots from Iaoth, less DoTs, Wild Quiver, etc). As such, has to stop DPS more often due to Permeating Cold debuff stacking
- Movement (during the pull-in)
- Absence of important debuffs (mangle/trauma, sunder) on ice tombs
has to stop DPS more often due to Permeating Cold debuff stacking
You should be able to Volley at the 5s mark for Cold debuff to drop off if needed. Its not awesome DPS but its better then the alternative of doing nothing.
Is there any special tips or tricks to allow an MM hunter to be able to compete with Surv in Valithria encounter? My performance seemed to take a big hit due to the constant target switching and also movement (to cover both left and right sides of the adds). What made it worse was the fact that I ran OOM a couple times even before reaching the middle of the fight. I finally had to respec to Surv before our successful attempt to down the boss, but would like to try MM for the upcoming weeks.
Also, for hunters, are we going to benefit much from going into the portal room? Our raid's consideration is that healers are going to benefit a lot more, and as such we allowed only healers inside the portal during our last successful attempt.
For Sindragosa, is it true that MM is going to take a larger performance hit compared to Surv? Especially due to :
- Significantly larger number of direct and physical-type attacks (more autoshots from Iaoth, less DoTs, Wild Quiver, etc). As such, has to stop DPS more often due to Permeating Cold debuff stacking
- Movement (during the pull-in)
- Absence of important debuffs (mangle/trauma, sunder) on ice tombs
On Valithria there is ample time to use Viper Aspect (and perhaps even Viper Sting on a Risen Archmage, though I haven't checked the mana on these mobs), especially on first few waves, so by the time things start to get hectic you should be at 100% mana, or close enough.
On Sindragosa, I doubt MM would be at a huge disadvantage compared to surv; both specs have to stop dmg anyway during the Permeating Cold buff on boss (and yes, even though surv can continue firing Explosive Shot, same goes for MM with Arcane/Chimera, and as prime311 mentioned, Volley)
As far as 'movement' goes, a simple disengage does the trick (you can disengage right after she death grips you, so while you are still in the air). On Ice tombs; surv is lacking some debuffs as well and the majority of the fight you will be damaging Sindragosa anyway, so overall I would say; go with whatever gives you highest single target DPS (for the last 30%).
and also movement (to cover both left and right sides of the adds). What made it worse was the fact that I ran OOM a couple times even before reaching the middle of the fight.
If you sit in the middle of the room (Either infront of, behind, or in the boss) You shouldn't have to move much, if at all. Try to stay out of the purple circles on the ground and as mentioned before use viper sting and AotV. I found that ~5-8 seconds in viper put me back up to 3/4 full on mana.
Edit: For my guild atleast, I've also found that on 'downtime' with only abominations up we have more than enough dps to let me switch over to viper as well.
Last edited by UnstableFluxx : 02/05/10 at 4:53 PM.
02/01/10, 11:53 AM
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