The Survival Hunter in 3.3 - Page 2

Har · 02/02/10, 1:47 PM

[deleted: missed it in the original post]

SpartanKillian · 02/02/10, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bbelg

How large is the margin of error for haste in the spreadsheet/website? I know there's been talks that the spreadsheet/website is 'generous' when it comes to haste due to the fact that it assumes we're always in a tank n spank fight for 6mins straight. I've been playing around with a 4p T10 spec and I've come down to either 0/15/56 or 3/15/53.

The 3/15/53 spec is essentially the 'Imp Stings' spec except instead of 3 points into Imp Stings, it's 3 points into Imp Hawk while still providing replenishment to the raid. That being said, I don't know if taking the 3 points from Imp Hawk and putting it into Resourcefulness, EW, and Hunting Party(0/15/56) is better, because the 0/18/53 spec never had those talents anyway.

Plugging the specs into femaledwarf shows 3/15/53 with slight advantage over 0/15/56 by about +62dps, for my gear at least. I'm not sure if anyone would consider +62dps a significant increase but it's an increase nonetheless. So how large is the margin of error regarding haste on the website? Could the movement during fights negate all of the '+62dps'? Or would movement only cut that number down by half?

For arguments sake, let's assume that the movement during fights will negate all of the +62dps. Making the DPS equivalent for both specs. If this is the case, wouldn't 3/15/53 be 'better' due to the time we do get to stand still and just DPS? Is this assumption incorrect? I'd really like to know how much DPS can be lost during movement heavy fights and how 'off' the website is regarding haste.

I think it would be impossible to fully quantify dps loss, since the total time spent moving will vary due to both skill (proper positioning, etc.) and luck (how many times do you need to run out of Marrowgar's flames?). That said, the rule of thumb regarding +speed enchants was if you are spending 4+ seconds/minute moving, the +speed enchant is the way to go. To my mind, this illustrates the fairly quick and serious dps loss moving incurs (and now I'm having a flashback to herding cats in the outside group vs. Yogg). 3 talent points is a considerable investment for something that may not be utilized to its full potential. All that said, if you're great at positioning and stutter-stepping, then give it a go--I think the answer ultimately boils down to skill and playstyle.

aeolyn · 02/03/10, 3:42 AM

I'm rapidly approaching four piece T10 and I was looking at the 6/14/51 spec with no replenishment and it puzzles me. Five points in Improved Hawk and 3 points in Sniper Training tells you you're going to want to hold still as much as possible to maximize the use of those talents.

Am I giving Aimed Shot too much credit? I thought Sniper Training was THE reason to take Aimed Shot in a Surv build (well, aside from the obvious boon of having another instant). I like the idea of the talent layout I'm seeing. And it maths out to look really nice. But I can't help but raise a brow at the idea of giving up Aimed.

I really just feel at a loss as to how to adjust with the three points I'm taking out of Improved Stings. The prospect of losing mobile damage through dropping Aimed seems like one of those things that isn't going to get modeled correctly. Or perhaps I'm not giving Improved Hawk enough credit because it'll boost the two piece proc rate. Although that proc is hilariously subject to Murphy's Law.

The specs the above quoted post mentions seem to make a lot more sense to me, as they maintain Aimed. I guess what I'm asking here is really: Do you all feel like you adjust so little in ICC that dropping Aimed looks like a good prospect in favor of 5/5 Imp Hawk and that one point in Focused Fire? I look at how much I have to readjust on certain fights and it makes me go hmmm.

Christov · 02/03/10, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by aeolyn

I'm rapidly approaching four piece T10 and I was looking at the 6/14/51 spec with no replenishment and it puzzles me. Five points in Improved Hawk and 3 points in Sniper Training tells you you're going to want to hold still as much as possible to maximize the use of those talents.

Am I giving Aimed Shot too much credit? I thought Sniper Training was THE reason to take Aimed Shot in a Surv build (well, aside from the obvious boon of having another instant). I like the idea of the talent layout I'm seeing. And it maths out to look really nice. But I can't help but raise a brow at the idea of giving up Aimed.

I really just feel at a loss as to how to adjust with the three points I'm taking out of Improved Stings. The prospect of losing mobile damage through dropping Aimed seems like one of those things that isn't going to get modeled correctly. Or perhaps I'm not giving Improved Hawk enough credit because it'll boost the two piece proc rate. Although that proc is hilariously subject to Murphy's Law.

The specs the above quoted post mentions seem to make a lot more sense to me, as they maintain Aimed. I guess what I'm asking here is really: Do you all feel like you adjust so little in ICC that dropping Aimed looks like a good prospect in favor of 5/5 Imp Hawk and that one point in Focused Fire? I look at how much I have to readjust on certain fights and it makes me go hmmm.

Personally, I would find dropping aimed shot to be a huge DPS loss, especially since you are moving in pretty much all of the fights in ICC particularly. I suppose in the first 4 bosses there is minimal moving overall in the fight, but you'd really have to try hard not to move much at all. Having that extra instant is so so so handy I find, especially in fights like professor putricide! Also good for a nice quick MD, couple of instants and the tank has a good amount of threat to go on; though this is most certainly an afterthought.

I'm horriblely over the hit cap and I really need to get it down and get more Agi. I have re-gemmed, enchanted, and everything but I still find myself over the hit cap. My hit is at 450. The thing is that my Agi is really lacking, It's about at 41% and it should be around 50% or higher. I've replaced all of my AP enchants with Agi, all of my AP gems with Agi, and I'm stuck at 41%. Also almost every piece of my gear has Hit raiting on it. So what my question is: What can I do to lower my hit rating and get my Agi up more. If anybody can help this would be greatfully appreciated.

What's your character name and server? You seem to have posted an orc rogue as your character in your EJ profile :P
If what you say is true and you're just gemming pure agi, then it's just down to gear. Any enchants that raise your hit cap are most likely not needed if you're that far over. Check to make sure you don't have focused aim as a talent and other than that... look for other gear! I find myself over the hit cap at the moment with room to spare, so don't worry it's just the gear you've picked up

Juneko · 02/03/10, 8:40 PM

Unless you are going for imp stings the dps gain from aim shot over iaoth is basically nil. The movement factor is not important because when moving you are going to want to take quick pauses to continue your auto shots, and sniper training won't be up anyway because you are moving. Multi shot is also flat out better on any fights with adds that you can squeeze in an extra hit on, like putricide slimes(the green ones usually), jarraxus mistresses of pain/infernals, adds on anub, bone spikes near marrowgar, deathwhisper adds, etc. Sniper training is an increase on a large number of skills including explosive shot. If it only affected explosive shot you would still want to take it.

I like the 6/14/51 build, but it eats mana up so fast that I've just never been able to take advantage of the extra dps.

Toshamaru · 02/04/10, 3:37 AM

Originally Posted by Christov

Personally, I would find dropping aimed shot to be a huge DPS loss, especially since you are moving in pretty much all of the fights in ICC particularly. I suppose in the first 4 bosses there is minimal moving overall in the fight, but you'd really have to try hard not to move much at all. Having that extra instant is so so so handy I find, especially in fights like professor putricide! Also good for a nice quick MD, couple of instants and the tank has a good amount of threat to go on; though this is most certainly an afterthought.

dropping aimed shot for focused fire is clever i think. you loose the 6% damage advantage when using multi, but what you gain seems more powerful - 1% for anything. the only thing i would change in this spec: go for max TotH instead of resourcefulness. everytime i use the onlinecalculation it seems to be a dps-loss over other things, an in a raid situation i often delay BA because ES is (nearly) ready and so minimum 2secs are wasted.

Rivkah · 02/04/10, 4:01 AM

The point of the 6/14/51 spec is generally to reallocate the points in thrill of the hunt that are generally excess (since 1-2 pts give pretty good return) into dps talents. It's meant for raiders that have full raid buffs with high JoW uptimes where mana is not a serious concern. If you are investing 3 points in thrill of the hunt I expect you'd find more dps gain going for hunting party, at least at high gear levels where you get fairly good dps gain per talent point.

With regards to resourcefulness, the first point is usually worth a noticable amount of dps (since you don't run into the LnL cooldown overlap issues very much with 1 pt). The other two are worth less but it's really a judgement call. Every point in resourcefulness will amount to some dps gain since at least some of your black arrows will go off earlier, whereas thrill of the hunt will only gain you dps if you're finding yourself running low on mana. So you really just need to weigh your investment based on your personal raid experience. This is why the specs listed are only sample specs, there is a lot of legitimate variation in survival specs and you have to judge for yourself which talents fit your situation best.

Esoth · 02/04/10, 2:15 PM

The fact that the SS glyph is more favorable than the ES glyph at higher gear levels really isn't about the crit cap, it is about gear stats as a whole scaling. The question is basically, when does increasing my steady shot damage by 10% outweigh increasing my chance to crit with explosive shot by 4%? It should be obvious these two options would not progress exactly the same as each other. Total steady shot damage is here going to be increased by crit, AP, and ArP (and maybe even haste, depending). The value of an explosive shot crit over a non-crit is really only going to change based on AP (including that which you get from agility).

With gear from early in this expansion I think we all saw that explosive shot had a much higher starting point so that glyph was favorable. But with all of your stats increasing that situation changes. It would also be a disingenuous to try to justify one of these glyphs as being better than another based on a single stat, be it crit or ArP. Those certainly play a factor, but there are several variables involved here.

On a different topic, I've found that volley continues to be strong, if not stronger than MM, with a SV build. There are two obvious reasons why this would be the case, despite not having the barrage talent like a MM hunter would. First, SV simply has higher crit and AP. Secondly, expose weakness procs from volley damage.

DoomSpirit · 02/06/10, 3:12 PM

Accuracy is also useful on two-hands weapons.

MizarAlcor · 02/09/10, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by UnstableFluxx

For all specs of hunter you shouldn't really value haste over crit, AP, or Armpen. Those three stats will give you more dps than haste would, since it only affects autoshot and SS. Stacking haste affects, however, provides more of a return then using them seperatly. IE save Beserking, rapidfire, and haste pot for when BL is popped. Although SS will be well below the GCD, it is still better because you get off more autoshots. I like to sit at 1.60-1.62second cast of SS before raid buffs myself. With a ret/boomkin that will drop it to roughly 1.58second cast, and with roughly 45%-50% uptime on IaotH, you're right near the 1.50 mark.

If I remember correctly, a calculation was done a while back showing that stacking RF and Bloodlust will actually provide a marginal increase over triggering them separately. Basically, the calculation showed that the additional frequency gain of autoshots outweigh the benefit gained from ensuring that steady shots will always be on GCD during the duration of the haste effects (RF and BL). Of course, the drawback to this situation is that you're basically putting all your eggs into one basket. If there occurs a situation which forces you to detract from ideal standstill situation during the haste procs (have to move out of fire, change targets, vile gas, etc), the RF-BL stacking will be hurt more significantly than triggering them separately.

And for gearing purposes, as mentioned before, haste takes the lowest priority among all our DPS-contributing stats. BiS equip sets tend to include the least amount of haste possible (even the lichking's Xbow's stat was changed from giving haste to ArP), and some top hunters can even manage with 0 haste rating.

Maevemmy · 02/10/10, 10:34 AM

I don't know that this is already posted but shouldn't you always have 3/3 points in trap mastery now (3.3.2) becuase of the deathbringer fight. Since whenever I raid ICC pug or guild hunters are always on blood beast duty and the improved duration of frost trap is nice to help kite the beasts

MizarAlcor · 02/10/10, 11:21 AM

The base duration for frost trap is 30 seconds, extendable with the talent for up to 39 seconds. If the spawned blood beasts aren't dead by 30 seconds (ranged DPS aren't switching, etc), another 9 seconds won't really help much. That is why MM hunters can uphold the Beasts duty as effectively as SV hunters, except probably lack of snap aggro on more than one beast (first beast can be snapped by Distracting SHot) gained through LnL proc.

EDIT : As pointed out by Kraxis below, correcting the error on additional trap duration (3 to 9 seconds).

KraxisSingular · 02/10/10, 12:40 PM

Trap Mastery grants 30% duration buff, not just 10%. However I agree that 30 seconds should be enough. The only issue I have found is the beasts leaving the trap area. For that I also drop a Snake Trap, thus I know the beast I focus will be slowed for as long as I need it to (while helping the other ranged with their beasts).

Maevemmy · 02/10/10, 12:47 PM

So then trap mastery is not as important as putting points into improved stings if someone has the t9 2piece bounus?

Rivkah · 02/10/10, 1:13 PM

There is never a debate about trap mastery versus improved stings. Due to the way the survival talents are configured, you need the 3 points from trap mastery to get to the next tier of talents. The only other useful talent you can take is hawk eye, which is situational. Trap mastery isn't worth a lot of dps however, so if you do find a use for hawk eye (on some fights like princes, dreamwalker and putricide it can be useful) it's not a big problem to take it over trap mastery. According to my math one extra explosive shot fired on a 5 minute fight is enough to make up the dps lost from trap mastery.