Cataclysm Hunter Changes - Page 2

alienangel · 04/09/10, 1:27 PM

Well GC mentioned that the focus costs in the preview are examples and will be reduced or removed as necessary. He also mentioned that situationally we might not need to use steady shot at all sometimes, which implies some of your specials may not have cooldowns. That would be rather nice (although a bit warrior like, which they seem to want to move away from), if a focus rich environment allows us to chain nukes for a while.

If they were to remove the cooldowns though, I can't imagine why we'd want to use both of say, Aimed Shot and Chimera shot unless they cost different amounts of focus. If they have the same cost and GCD and no cooldown, we'd always use the one that does more damage (perhaps switching which that is depending on our current amount of ArP Mastery, or target debuffs).

MetallicaRulez0 · 04/09/10, 1:31 PM

I agree with above posters about these changes possibly simplifying our rotation a great deal. If they do fully remove the cooldown from Chimera/Explosive, then we'd simply spam that ability every time we have enough focus, using Steady Shots to fill the gaps. That sounds awfully boring to me. Obviously we have no idea if they're going to remove the cooldowns, but I'm a bit worried.

The first thing that really stuck out to me as being awful is the Focus cost of Disengage and similar cooldowns. Those are not abilities you want to be unable to use due to resource starvation.

Dorrinal · 04/09/10, 1:35 PM

The first thing that really stuck out to me as being awful is the Focus cost of Disengage and similar cooldowns. Those are not abilities you want to be unable to use due to resource starvation.

Originally Posted by Pentagram

This looks a bit awkward, in a raiding scenario you need to be able to use tranq/ concussion/ distracting shot and disengage when they need to be used. A hunter who did not conserve his focus, and screwed up to put it bluntly is a dead hunter and a potential raid wipe.

I don't see how it's any more awkward than a rogue keeping 25 energy around to Kick a spell. Though I'd agree with Midnight's sentiment that the urge to maximize dps would keep one from having enough focus in an unscripted/emergency scenario where such a cooldown would be beneficial.

Ketari · 04/09/10, 1:44 PM

I'm thinking haste is going to be rather important.

Some of this we need numbers for... for example, it looks like viper sting produces 3 focus/second, which is what... a third more than base regen if we need to move? How that balances situationally with serpent sting is something we can't really tell without more numbers.

What can we tell? Well, I'm not sure I'd call what we're getting a "rotation", or even a LK-like priority system. The nature of the focus system we're getting seems to be periodic shots with a filler, especially if we need to maintain a buffer for using utility cooldowns.

v1perz · 04/09/10, 1:45 PM

There is a large difference between a rogue pooling energy to kick because he knows that he will have to interrupt the next spell, usually around 5 seconds away, to a hunter needing to hit disengage because someone placed a swarming shadows poorly. The former, you know is coming, the latter you are reacting to a random event with no knowledge beforehand that it is going to happen. Tranq vs. kick is a better analogy, you can compare disengage to sprint or evasion or cloak for rogues, all of which have no energy cost.

Keldin · 04/09/10, 1:50 PM

Well, not all hunters have played a rogue so focus will be quite an experience at first for a number of us. It might look or feel awkward now, but once you get used to it, it might not be a problem after all. The biggest change focus will bring is that we wont mash the keys to hit that perfect timer.

Regarding the rotation - if I recall correctly devs mentioned during/after last years' blizzcon that they don't want to change our rotations much, only our resource system. Plus they did mention smaller cooldowns on abilities, not completely off the CD. If this stays true we might still be keeping the priority list we have now, only with a couple of minor changes. We still fire the hardest hitting shots first and instead of having to spam steady at some point we'll weave it in between when necessary. Yes, this is me speculating much, but it looks like the most probable situation based on the info we have.

Esoth · 04/09/10, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by alienangel

If they were to remove the cooldowns though, I can't imagine why we'd want to use both of say, Aimed Shot and Chimera shot unless they cost different amounts of focus. If they have the same cost and GCD and no cooldown, we'd always use the one that does more damage (perhaps switching which that is depending on our current amount of ArP Mastery, or target debuffs).

I think it could make sense if the cooldowns were removed on some abilities but not all. For instance, imagine Aimed had no cooldown, while Arcane/Chimera/Explosive did more damage but did have a cooldown. You could build up enough focus for aimed while making sure you will have enough focus for Chimera when it comes off cooldown. This is all just speculation, but that playstyle sounds like it might be interesting. If they removed all cooldowns or removed no cooldowns the system sounds boring for the former and broken for the latter.

Oroblram · 04/09/10, 1:59 PM

Also consider that while casting a single SS or cobra shot we will be getting back 12 focus plus whatever focus regen is cooked into talent trees. Also haste will increase focus regen. So we could be looking at anywhere from 12-20 regen from one shot.

Bullshot · 04/09/10, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by MetallicaRulez0

The first thing that really stuck out to me as being awful is the Focus cost of Disengage and similar cooldowns. Those are not abilities you want to be unable to use due to resource starvation.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the focus costs of abilities just yet. There's still a long way to go for the expansion to go live and plenty of time to tweak the costs. GC confirmed in the preview thread that defensive ability costs will be looked at and possibly made free if deemed necessary.

MizarAlcor · 04/09/10, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by Dorrinal

I don't see how it's any more awkward than a rogue keeping 25 energy around to Kick a spell. Though I'd agree with Midnight's sentiment that the urge to maximize dps would keep one from having enough focus in an unscripted/emergency scenario where such a cooldown would be beneficial.

As long as the focus cost is tuned well, I don't think there's a big concern with offensive CDs and CCs (Tranq/Conc/Silencing etc) costing focus to apply. However, requiring focus for defensive CDs (Disengage/Master's Call/hopefully not Deterrence as well) seems to be very harsh and unwieldy for the skill itself, even compared to our "energy"-using would-be-cousins.

Take rogue for example, almost none of their defensive CDs : Cloak/Vanish/Sprint/Evasion requires any energy. Same with DK, a large majority of their defensive CDs don't require any rune spending (AMS/DP/Lichborne/IBF). They do require RP to use, but DKs are often times rune-limited rather than RP-limited anyway.

Also, I noticed that the Trap launcher's CD is planned to be 1 min. Is this an indication that trap CD (non-launcher ones) will also be extended to 1 min? I don't think they would make launcher's CD separate from the trap's CD itself, otherwise double or triple-trapping 2 targets is very possible.

I'm also interested on the Arcane part of the "Elemental damage" Survival tree's Mastery bonus. I hope it won't just be as a help for leveling hunters who have yet to get Explosive Shot.

Ketari · 04/09/10, 2:45 PM

The way I'm reading trap launcher is that it's a buff which allows the next trap you cast to be "launched", rather than a trap cooldown per-se.

• Relwin · 04/09/10, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ketari

The way I'm reading trap launcher is that it's a buff which allows the next trap you cast to be "launched", rather than a trap cooldown per-se.

That would seem to be the proper way to read it as it also mentions that it does not incur a GCD, thus allowing you to macro a trap launch.

bule · 04/09/10, 3:28 PM

It would make more sense as I believe its a way to boost SV dps with traps with the new passive mastery being Elemental damage, along with the many trap talents in the SV tree.

Grogzor · 04/09/10, 3:47 PM

I hope the fact that they didn't list traps as having a Focus cost means that they won't. Which would be really nice.

Also, I think I jumped the gun a little with my previous post. With Arcane Shot costing the same as Chimera and Explosive, it seems that they are intending for that to be the BM shot to be used with Cobra Strike giving us each 3 real abilities to weave.

BM - Cobra/Arcane/Multi or Aimed
MM - Steady/Chimera/Aimed
Surv - Steady/ Explosive/Aimed or Multi

The way I think they could best make it and have the cooldowns taken off of cooldowns would be to make it so that Aimed and Multishot hit harder then Chimera/Arcane/Explosive but still have there be an incentive to use those 3 shots. Like saving the GCD from reapplying stings with Chimera is your reason to use it because your overall damage by doing that goes up moreso then if you just used Aimed Shot in its stead. Obviously they would have to tweak Explosive Shot and add something to Arcane to make you want to do that but its not something that should be out of the question.

Another thing I want to see is what is going on with Viper Sting. Will it have a cooldown, how long will it last? Cause depending on how things go, it might supplant Serpent Sting for MM who may be able to keep it up all the time.

And lastly, with it looking like we are going to be stacking Haste much more so then we are now...maybe pets will scale with it somehow.

Namarus · 04/09/10, 4:26 PM

Right now looking at the break down of abilities it seems rather lopsided towards SV.

A SV hunter would be using Explosive Shot, Serpent, Black Arrow, Cobra for single target dps. All of which would be boosted by the SV masteries for elemental damage and increased critical damage. Furthermore sunder armor is also being reduced by 8%, which makes SV attractive, SV regains focus back when they crit, which further compounds how SV is frankly looking very attractive. Factor in lock and load (if they keep it) for focus free explosive shots.

BM on the other hand without information on issues like pet scaling is looking like it will be dead last in damage, and interesting rotations.

With regards to MM, without information on ability co-eff, it is going to be hard to see at the moment where MM is going. Obviously the MM mastery double shot is replacing wild quiver. If you are using chimera shot, is it going to be worth investing in aimed shot? If SV gets increased critical damage does this mean that mortal shots is going to be removed from the MM tree?

I figure that tranquilizing shot is going to work along the lines of how rogues have to pool energy for kicks.

I'm not particularly happy that defensive cool downs cost energy. I'd probably end up just removing the abilities from my bars since really who would have the energy pooled to use them.