Has anyone tested whether the ranged attack speed proc from ISS stacks with the ranged attack speed buff from HP?

EDIT: If they don't stack SV hunters should be able to rely soley on CS for the focus regenerating shot which would sync better with the spec: ignores armor, extends SerpSting, mastery bonus, etc.

I can't comment on what to expect of Cobra Shot in future builds, but I find the Arcane Shot focus (no pun intended) to be a bit odd. Two specs don't use the shot at all right now, and the third (BM) only does because they don't have anything better to do.

In Cata, it becomes more of a situational shot. MM uses it for damage + HM when Chimera is on CD (and chimera needs a CD because of secondary effects), BM uses it when the pet can't be in range for various reasons, and to transfer threat with Misdirection, and SV may still have trouble finding uses for it, which is no worse than right now.

I'm not sure having situational uses for a simple damage shot is a bad model, particularly when the fixes change the interactions between other abilities. I also don't think we can measure complexity simply by the number of buttons to press, especially when the reasons to press those other buttons are as arbitrary as cooldowns.

Just thought of this some time ago:

Right now, MM hunters seem to be very GCD capped due to SS cast time and Focus costs. This results in Lag, miscalculation of certain events and all sorts of other things really impacting our dps, even going so far out that other Hunters are trying to find a way to "save" globals for more SS ( KC> AS because of no GCD on Cata Forums?). My "problem" with this is that, while the MM priority system does look to be quite challenging, cute things like "Superbuffs" (Hodir, Iron council circle, Icehowl Charge stun etc.) wont really result in a "priority switch" the way they are now (say we base Rapid Fire and Readiness around those encounter mechanics because our DPS can be greatly improved). This will result in quite a "static" rotation no matter what happens encounter wise while our 2 personal (quite strong now) self buffs like Rapid Fire and Readiness will be changed to not affect Personal Hunter DPS depending on when they are used aside from Trinket proccs.

Example:
-Lady DW Phase transition WotLK: Good Hunters move when their Chimera + Aimed Shots are not on CD to fire them while stutter stepping.
VS
-Lady DW Phase transition Cataclysm: Hunters just switch to Fox if they just chimeraed or their Instant Aimed was just up, no change in rotation or "thought" across from stutter stepping.

What possible changes I could see would be to change the SS cast time to 1,5 seconds, and maybe leave Hunters the option of having 30% haste when Endgame-equipped so that SS could be pumped out a lot faster, minimizing their GCD "bloat" as much as possible.

One could draw a paranthesis between the current DK model and the current Cata Hunter model, but I am sure the Devs will think of something.

Just mentioning it, since it hasn't been mentioned yet it seems.

As of the latest beta build Volley has disappeared (both from actionbars, spellbooks and mentions in talents).

I have to say that I am a little concerned with the MM tree now. I feel like I either have to spend points in mandatory talents or filler talents with really very little in between. We also have so many talents that have limited scaling and whose benefits can be realistically capped at which point it stops providing a benefit with scaling gear.

Here is the current spec that I see, with it breaking down as follows.

Also assuming in the 10s Chimera cycle that the 10 GCDs are broken down as:
1x Chimera Shot (1s)
4x Steady Shots (in pairs) for ISS haste buff, focus regen, and Aimed Shot proc, assumming 1.5 caste time is 6s
3 remaining GCDs for specials (to dump focus with Arcane Shot, Kill Shot, any necessary utility ability, Aimed Shot and Kill Command procs, or additional SSs if necessary)

Of course, as SS cast time decreases, MMs gain an additional special at a 1.25 cast time and a second at 1s cast time.

Tier 1:

- GftT: Required to keep pet from being focused starved. At 10 focus per 2 talent points and assuming a 2s hasted autoshot (actual autoshots should be faster with how important haste is) for 30 per minute, this equates to about 100 focus per minute at 33% crit rate and 150 at 50%. Nothing overwhelming, but still very necessary. This talent scales with increases in crit rating and haste up to the point where our pet is never focus starved at which point it provides no additional benefit with scaling.

- Eff: Required to help focus management. Saving 6 per Chimera Shot is only saving 6 hunter focus every 10s or 0.6 per second. Saving 3 per Arcane Shot is also saving only 6 per 10s if do 2 per rotation. So it basically saves us 1.2 focus per second, which may not seem like much but which adds up to 72 focus a minute. Of course as haste increases and SS cast time decreases, more GCDs will be gained for focus dumps making the focus savings more necessary. However, at the same time, the extra haste will result in more focus regen and quicker SSs to regen focus when needed. Thus, theoretically there is a point where we have enough focus regen from haste and the required SSs, that points in this talent may no longer be necessary. This all depends on how well Blizzard balances hunters out for the whole range of gear scaling.

- RK: For PvE, a good talent for soloing, especially in conjuction with RR. But as group size increases and the opportunity for the kill shot to proc the buff decreases, the benefit reduces. For raiding, it can provide some benefit on trash and on certain boss fights depending on its mechanics and your role. For raiding, I definitely would not recommend 2 points in this talent, but one point could be beneficial situationally. This point could instead go into a second point in Frenzy.

Tier 2:

- Sic'Em: Assuming that both points are required initially to maintain focus. However, with also having 2 points in BD, it is possible that the second point may not be necessary at some point. Hence, this is another talent whose benefit stops scaling at some point.

- ISS - Required. 15% haste from using shots that you need to use anyway to regen focus, take advantage of our ArP, proc PS, and proc Aimed Shot is a given considering how important haste is in Cataclysm. This talent will always provide a benefit with scaling gear; however, that benefit will be reduced once SS cast time reaches the GCD.

- CA: Mandatory since nothing else to put the points into and since it is so powerful over that first 40% of target health. However, it has no benefit over 60% of the target's health range. Furthermore, as I have stated previously, once we have over 45% buffed crit rate on SS and AiS, the benefit of the talent decreases since we are crit capped on those shots, but with that second point being currently worth 40% crit and how important crit is to those shots not only for the additional shot damage but also for proccing PS and Sic'Em, we really cannot afford to drop that second point. Hence, this is a talent whose benefit will be maxed out rather quickly. I still really do not like the fact that this talent applies to both so large and so small a range of boss health. Is applies to a large enough range where its benefits have to be taken seriously with gear choices, but to a small enough range where you have to decide which range to optimize our damage on - the first 40% or the second 40% until KS becomes available. Things to consider besides the reduced hunter damage below 60% is that with lower AiS crits, we will have less Sic'Em and PS procs too. This talent is really going to make it interesting for MM hunters to make gear/talent choices. I think that MMs will need to optimize to the first 40% of boss health at low gear levels since this range will then be doing so much more damage than over the second 40% and then optimize for the second 40% once crit rates and pet focus is capped on that first 40% with sufficient gear. At low gear levels, that difference in our DPS between that first and second 40% of boss health will be huge, but once the CA crit capped is reached, the DPS difference between those ranges with start to decrease.

Tier 3:

- SilS: With it no longer doing damage and with there being better options for interrupts from other classes, I really see no reason to spec into this talent anymore for PvE except for very rare situational cases.

- CB: Generally no reason to spec this for PvE.

- PS: Obviously, mandatory. One of our few talents that will continue to scale with gear, although that scaling is reduced some once with the CA crit cap is met during that first over the first 40% of boss health.

Tier 4:

- TSA: Without knowing who may or may not provide this benefit in your raid, I assume spending a point in it, especially since there are not many other options for the point anyway. It at least provides the benefit while soling and in a lot of 5-mans. The current only other sources of the buff are enhancement shaman, DK tanks, and pallies (BoM). In 25-man raids, you can pretty much assume that you at least have plenty of pallies to cover the buff and that you can drop this point for a utility ability if desired. If you are a 10-man raider, odds are more likely that you may need the point in TSA depending on group composition since you are less likely to have a DK tank, Enh shaman, or multiple pallies (if any). Even if you have a DK tank, the DK may not be specced into it to focus more on survival talents (I know my current DK tank spec skips it assuming others provide the benefit).

- Term: The additional SS focus regen over the last 25% boss health will be nice since it will allow more specials that cost focus, especially once KS becomes available. With assuming still doing 4 SSs per cycle to main ISS and AiS proc rates, that is an additional 24 focus per cycle. This will definitely be useful at lower gear levels, my concern is that at higher gear levels with more regen from haste that points in this talent may not be as beneficial.

- RiF: This is a very situational talent. It has no benefit on targets that are not moved or do not move. Even on targets that do move, you have only an 8% (1 in 12.5 chance) for it to proc. However, when it does proc, the focus-free KC is a nice DPS boost.

- Bomb: With the removal of crit to Volley from this talent, its benefit has been greatly reduced. The only benefit from this talent that I can see if allowing our Multishot to be a focus dump in large pack situations in which CC is not a concern. This is only in situations of 3 or more targets close together with either no CC or all CC target far enough away. I didn't see a big benefit to this talent before, and I see less of one now since I do not anticipate using MS often. First, the talent is only beneficial in the correct situations. Second, at low gear levels with low MS crit rates, the benefit is not going to be likely enough to be worthwhile. However, at higher gear levels with higher crit rates where the focus savings is more likely, the talent may be a good options for moving points into from talents that are no longer needed at high gear levels. But once again, at the high gear levels, focus savings may not be as beneficial. This talent would be nicer if we had a bigger reason for using MS like SVs Serpent Spread. This talent may end up being a good option though if find out that Volley is really gone and if we find ourselves in a lot of AoE situations. Also note that in situations where we would use MS instead of Volley, that most single target attacks are still going to be desired over MS. Still need to do our SSs to main focus, haste buff, and proc Aimed Shots. CS is still preffered since should do more damage on a single target than MS on three, especially considering the PS proc, for the refreshing SrS, and the additional effect from the venom. The free Aimed Shot is still preferred since it is focus free and should do more single target damage than MS on 3 targets, especially with the PS proc and when the target is above 60% health. The only shot it would replace is Arcane Shot, and even then the damage versus focus cost and crit likelihood has to be balanced. Now what would be worthwhile is if this talent also resulted in MS providing some MM specific benefits like allowing it to cause PS bleeds on each target on which it crits or making it effected by ArP.

Tier 5:

- Master Marksman: Instant and focus free Aimed Shots on a regular basis is definitely a DPS boost. In the best case scenario where every SS increases the stack, that it a free AiS every 5 SSs or every 1.25 CS cycles or possible every CS cycle if you take a 5th SS each cycle. With assuming evenly distributed stacking with the 60% stack chance, 8.33 SS are required for a free Aimed Shot on average. This is a little more than every 2 CS cycles on average. With assuming a binomial probability, there 94.3% assurance that we will get the proc in 12 attempts over 3 CS cycles. Since Aimed Shot damage scales with gear, this benefit definitely scales with gear if your number of SSs cast per cycle stay the same.

For those interested, using a binomial probability calculation, here is a list of the probability for getting the Aimed Shot proc by at least the number of SSs cast (the probability for the proc on exactly a certain number of SSs casts is the difference between its accumulated percentage and the previous one - e.g., 83.4% - 73.3% = 10.1% chance for it taking exactly 10 SS casts):

5: 7.8%
6: 23.3%
7: 42.0%
8: 59.4%
9: 73.3%
10: 83.4%
11: 90.0%
12: 94.3%
13: 96.8%
14: 98.2%
15: 99.1%

Hence, with 4 SSs a cycle, we are almost guaranteed (94.3%) a free Aimed Shot proc every 30s and have almost a 60% chance to get one within 20s. If you add a 5th SS per cycle, the chance of getting a free Aimed Shot every 30s is only increased by less than 5%, but the chance to get one within 20s is increased by 24%. If you do only 3 SSs per cycle, your chance to get a free Aimed Shot in 30s is only 73.3% and within 20s is only 23.3%. Hence, this information, along with wanting to more consistently keep up the ISS haste buff, leads to having at least 4 SSs per rotation. Casting a 5th per rotation is beneficial if need the additional focus and if want a higher chance to proc the free Aimed Shot sooner.

- Readiness: Still a nice talent for refreshing CDs, but the benefit of Readiness in Cataclysm as compared to in Wrath and BC is dimished since we are now focus constrained on being able to fully take advantage of our reset CDs. Unless needed for emergency uses, it will primarily be used for back-to-back RFs with the side effect of a sooner CS once have sufficient focus to cast it (which RF with RR will allow quickly if do not already have it).

- RR: The extra regen during Rapid Fire will allow us to cast a lot more focus dumps during it.

Tier 6

- Posthaste: The main PvE benefit is allowing your RFs and Readiness CDs to align for a RF->Readiness->RF combo every 3 minutes. The short movement buff after Disengage can have some situational benefits in PvE too.

- MfD: The change to this talent is really disappointing for two points spent. On one hand it is nice to not have to waste a GCD in combat to mark the target I am on when either the old HM is wearing off or when switching targets. But having to spend two points for a free HM is rather costly, especially on boss fights where there is only a single target and that target dies before HM needs to be refreshed. I can also see some potential problems with this talent too in multiple hunter situations depending on how it is implemented. With every ArS or CS, does it overwrite the current HM with a new one (i.e, will the MMs HM overwrite the SV or BM HMs)? If so, when the MM (assuming only 1) switches targets and this causes the new target to be marked, will the BM and SV hunters still attacking the original target now be attacking an unmarked target although they may have previously cast their HM or been relying on the MMs HM.

Tier 7:

- CS: Awesome shot. Enough said. (Plus, you were probably tired of reading this post long ago anyway.)


The MM tree has 32 points in it, with any 1 of the points being able to be moved to get a second point in Frenzy if desired. Once that point is gone (the RK point), the only choices are moving between utilities or "capped" talents.
- If at some point the 3rd point in Eff is not really needed since you have plenty of focus regen, the only option is RK, so you might as well leave it in Eff to be safe for low focus regen periods.
- If the 2nd point in Sic'Em is no longer needed, the only options for moving that point is into either RK or SilS, with neither being great options.
- After that, Bomb is the only additional PvE option if dont want MfD or do not need RiF for a certain fight or do not need Termination since have plenty of focus regen.

The second point adds another 5 for a total of 10 focus per auto shot crit.

@Schnariti:
The point you made about mastery feels sort of inaccurate to me, due to the following reasons:
1. GC said that basically everyone will want Mastery (meaning that its not Haste for current Hunters).
2. Mastery will be our "balancing" knob. What I mean by this is that Blizzard will most certainly try to make all classes have an X amount of mastery with almost every specc (even though I doubt it, just by comparing MM and SV mastery.), so if classes dont meet the Designers expectations ( Low/High DPS/HPS) Mastery will be either increased or decreased for the following Specc.

About the whole "its Inconsequent to introduce Mastery" : I have to disagree due to AP being baked in with Agi, so we will have the Option to gem for either Mastery, Agi, Haste or Crit. 4 Stats really dont seem like too much for me, they even add flavour in my opinion to the class.

On another note, Haste will probably be the first thing we "cap" at certain "gear plateaus" (say T11, T12 when we get 10%, then 20% Haste etc.), after which we will either go for Mastery or Agi (SV & MM) as crit doesnt really seem to be a "strong" stat for Hunters currently. Maybe for BM?

@Whitefyst

I also am not sure how termination could be considered a "bad" talent. It could only happen if you really did fire all SS in pairs, which is not optimal, as 1 "charge" can be gained while under the ISS buff, while ISS can only be gained after it fading, so say, SS-Focus dump-SS-SS [ISS gained] would benefit more from termination, as more focus would mean more need to dump focus.

I'm assuming this is the Termination talent, which gives 3 extra focus per talent point, for 6 total (9 + 6 = 15) on steady and cobra shot when the target is at or below 25%. So unless it's happening at some other time it's definitely not a bug.

I tried to bind a "starter" rotation in, as it also includes Serpent Sting with Scorpid Venom for "pre DPS" debuffing, I deleted the tale because of the terrible layout, confusing points (why Scorpid Venom and SrS in a "normal" rotation? etc.) and my inability to tag [code] around properly. Sorry about that.

What I also felt when drawing the "table" was that an MM Hunters rotation could really fluctuate from waiting 0.5 seconds to use CS on CD to calculating every tidbit of Haste into the priority table (say ISS proccs or no proccs, haste plateaus and how they would affect active and passive regeneration). This would make playing a Hunter on "endgame" level quite punishing while potentially rewarding with great DPS. Feels like we will have to see, but wow are there a lot of variables.

That would make sense, except I don't think I picked up termination because I thought it wasn't that good for a levelling build, and wanted to try out something else - also, I'm pretty sure it happens before 25% as well- but maybe its just the talent thats bugged in some way if that is the case. This definately warrants more testing from me later.

Are you saying that you think CoS is better for MM than SS? You say CoS hits harder than SS. Is that data from an MM spec or from a BM spec where CoS is buffed or a SV spec? If CoS white hits do hit harder than SS currently on beta in a MM spec, by how much? And how do the crits compare?

SS has to be better for MM than CoS for the following reasons:
1) It is a physical attack taking advantage of our ArP from being an MM as well as any ArR debuffs while CoS does not. Soloing, you are probably not getting the ArR that you should have one way or another on targets when raiding.
2) It procs PS on crits for 30% more crit damage. Obviously, as our crit rate increases, this makes SS more and more better than CoS.
3) With ISS, MM gets a 15% haste buff. Thus, we can cast our subsequent SSs faster and fit more shots in per cycle than if we did CoS instead. It also increases our autoshot attack rate, adding in additional DPS.
4) Doing SSs proc Master Marksman for an focus free Aimed Shot. The extra damage and focus savings of the Aimed Shot over the shot we would have taken instead is a DPS boost

The only way I could see MM ever using CoS, even if it hits a little harder, is if the boss is very high armor, reducing the benefits from ArP and ArR, and has mechanics that greatly buff magical damage. Even then, I would find it difficult to replace SS in the rotation since you would be giving up 15% haste to your cast attacks and autoshot and the free Aimed Shots. For bosses like that, you would be better off switching trees than using CoS in an MM spec.

Are CoS and SS cast times on beta 2s (like SS is on live)? I thought they were 1.5s casts to go along with the reduced GCD. All of the Cataclysm documentation I see has them at 1.5s. Anyway, even if they are 2s base, ISS provides 15% haste, which reduces the cast time down to 1.73 just by itself, which gains a GCD (over the at least 4 SSs each cycle) that can be used for an additional special. I also assume that you would have some haste on gear as well as raid buffs that would reduce the cast time for both SS and CoS as well.

Concerning the extra focus late in the fight, if you are MM specced, it could be due to Termination if it is consistent with every SS/CoS.

@Elcher
Ah, from reading the ISS talent, I assumed you only got the buff when you did two SSs consecutively and that anytime you did two SSs consecutively that it would refresh the duration. As such, if you did only 4 SSs per cycle, you would want to do them in pairs separated by at least 2s to keep the buff up 100% of the time in the 10s cycle. Any additional SSs in the cycle beyond the 4 can be done at any time.

So can you please explain for me how ISS is actually working? It seems like it would be a bad mechanic if you could not refresh it by casting 2 SSs while it in in effect. But if that is the way it is, then I will have to rethink some stuff.