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Old 09/10/10, 12:06 AM   #121
Logix
Piston Honda
 
Undead Mage
 
Tichondrius
Two important points

the arcane blast debuff only affects arcane blast.
Does this mean that Arcane Blast now only increases the damage of Arcane blast, and not of all Arcane spells?

So, from the standpoint of a boss fight arcane is less about a constant rotation, and more about optimizing your mana bar to the fight you're involved in (with a little rng in the mix).
This makes no sense, since even if AB now only affects AB, you still will have to keep casting AB, since ABr is a CD and AM is a proc, and so you have nothing else you can cast (unless you start casting frostbolts or something). Timing wise, you are still left with either casting ABx3 ABr/AM or ABx4 ABr/AM. Given this, how exactly are you meant to 'optimize your mana bar' through 'non-constant rotations'?

I can understand having to 'optimize' my rotations by casting some other spell instead of Arcane blast, but currently, there is no other spell we can cast.

Very strange.

On a different point, in that same thread, Kalgan says:

There are also a variety of tweaks to the core damage spells to try to bring the dps of the 3 specs more in line with each other.
Which pretty much confirms that they are done with any major changes to the mage trees and are now focusing on numbers balancing. In all, what we see now is what we will have for the next two years.


The most interesting point, however, is the fact that we have a somewhat clearer idea of why there have been no changes to Arcane. It seems like either:

a) Blizzard was not following the feedback being given, stating that Arcane is pretty boring to play in the beta (feedback not only by the community here, but by mages playing it on the beta).

or

b) Blizzard does not agree with the issues with the spec that were outlined in the feedback (i.e. they feel that Arcane has ample mana management tools at their disposal in order to 'optimize the mana pool').

Dunno what I make of this really.

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Old 09/10/10, 12:11 AM   #122
Gleeful
Von Kaiser
 
Gleeful's Avatar
 
Gnome Mage
 
Magtheridon
Does this mean that Arcane Blast now only increases the damage of Arcane blast, and not of all Arcane spells?
no, I think he is just reiterating how arcane blast already works (arcane blasts costs more, buffs damage of all spells).


Edit: Actually I'm wrong, looking at the tooltip on mmo champion the damage component does only effect arcane blast.

Last edited by Gleeful : 09/10/10 at 12:16 AM.

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Old 09/10/10, 12:12 AM   #123
Ellyh
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Priest
 
Hyjal
I think that there is still a lot of design space to go as this quote from GC to holy palies indicates.

The other concerns seem to be about mana and throughput number changes. It's too early to worry about those yet. It will be some time before we feel like the numbers are stable enough. We'll make sure paladins have about the same mana regen as the other healers.

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Old 09/10/10, 12:15 AM   #124
Uglybugger
Glass Joe
 
Uglybugger's Avatar
 
Undead Mage
 
Spirestone
Originally Posted by Logix View Post
Two important points


Does this mean that Arcane Blast now only increases the damage of Arcane blast, and not of all Arcane spells?
That's what he appears to be saying. That is the only way I could see Arcane Barrage doing more damage than Arcane Missiles.

Originally Posted by Logix View Post
This makes no sense, since even if AB now only affects AB, you still will have to keep casting AB, since ABr is a CD and AM is a proc, and so you have nothing else you can cast (unless you start casting frostbolts or something). Timing wise, you are still left with either casting ABx3 ABr/AM or ABx4 ABr/AM. Given this, how exactly are you meant to 'optimize your mana bar' through 'non-constant rotations'?

I can understand having to 'optimize' my rotations by casting some other spell instead of Arcane blast, but currently, there is no other spell we can cast.
Unless the cooldown of Arcane Barrage is reduced back to the original 3 seconds.

We'll be able to see how it works (or doesn't) when the build is released.

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Old 09/10/10, 12:22 AM   #125
Logix
Piston Honda
 
Undead Mage
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Gleeful View Post
no, I think he is just reiterating how arcane blast already works (arcane blasts costs more, buffs damage of all spells).
Either way we are pretty much exactly back to where we started.

Even if they buff ABr to the point that under any circumstances it is more DPS then AM, unless the DPS delta is huge (which, according to Kalgan's post will not be the case), ABx4 AM will still be the (proc willing) rotation of choice, due to the DPM difference (and mana adept). ABx4 ABr will only be used if AM hasn't procced. Which is the exact same thing that would be happening anyway.

I really am failing to see how this leads to mana management. Or any form of 'non-static' rotation. Especially since we can't really choose to not cast our mana hog spell, Arcane Blast.


I guess the key element I am missing from Kalgan's viewpoint, is how exactly are we supposed to 'optimize' our mana, given a rather static rotation and the lack of any tools outside cooldowns to increase our mana levels.

Maybe a beta mage can ask for clarification? Either that, or someone who has figured it out can explain.


Edit:

The more I think about this, the more I am convinced that the change to Arcane Blast won't change a single thing about how Arcane is played!

Let me explain.

In the previous model, we would cast ABx4 ABr/AM not because the ABr or AM does more damage then ABx4, but because ABxspam cycle (which is the highest DPS) is unsustainable.

In the current model, ABxspam is still the highest DPS, and still just as unsustainable. The point then becomes on using something to clear the stack.

In the previous model, we would break the stack with either an AM or ABr (since unprocced AM no longer exists). Breaking it with AM was always preferable, mainly due to the "mana free" part (i.e considerably higher DPM then ABr).

In the current model, we would do the same thing, i.e. break the stack with ABr or AM, using AM if it has procced, and ABr if it hasn't.

The only change is that ABr does more damage then AM, but, does this really change the priority?
Not really, and this is why.

ABr, while doing more DPS then AM, cannot do significantly more DPS (as Kalgan stated). AM, due to being mana free, will always do more DPM, hence meaning you still would want to clear your stack with AM over ABr. (especially now due to Mana Adept).

The final nail in the coffin, is that ABxY (where Y < 3) is still not possible, due to the cd on ABr, and the proc nature of AM. Which was exactly the case in the previous model as well.

The only change this new model has, is to have an extremely large proportion of Arcane's damage come through AB (since ABr and AM are no longer being buffed).

They cannot buff the base damage of ABr significantly, due to PvP reasons, and they cannot buff the damage of AM, since it needs to be lower then ABr. So what they will be forced to do, is buff the damage of AB by a lot, to make up for the lost damage. All this will give us is some really big AB numbers (which I'm sure will distract at least 80%+ of the Arcane mages playing the spec from the core issues).

But what this really means, is that since most of Arcane's damage will be coming out of AB, then even the slight DPS delta between ABr and AM becomes insubstantial, hence reducing any chance of adding a meaningful 'decision making' process to "should I clear with ABr or with AM". Since both spells will account for a much smaller fraction of Arcane's overall damage output!

Last edited by Logix : 09/10/10 at 12:52 AM.

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Old 09/10/10, 6:17 AM   #126
GronkerLonker
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Forscherliga (EU)
Some ideas on Mana Adept changes that are maybe yet possible to implement

Primary Goal
Interesting gameplay centering around mana management

Basic Idea
Mana Adept increases damage at high mana
High damage spells consume lots of mana

Resulting Player Task
Casting high damage spells while maintaining high amounts of mana
and / or
countering burn out periods with quick mana regeneration

Design Tasks
Create different ways to manage mana, all are valid in different situations.
Offer different choices of mana management with a clear winner in most cases.
Best choice has to be clearly seen in game, no need of spreadsheets
Good results will be achievable by getting the feeling of the class and understanding it's mechanics, no need of spreadsheets
Best theoretical rotation will likely be theorycrafted, however will not be applicable in most cases due to encounter design and other variables that can not be factored in

Tools
Assuiming no big chunks of implementation time are available until cataclysm a basic toolset has to be used.
Adapting mechanic of mana adept
Balancing through calculations
Buffs / Debuffs
Existing Spellset
Existing UI

Prerequesits
  • A mana reg rotation is available even at the expansions haste cap (the maximum haste value players presumably are able to achieve in Cata).
    The rotation would be something like:
    AB -> ABarr -> AB
    -> AM (if procced) -> start again
    or
    -> ABarr (if cooldown is lowered) -> start again
    or
    -> AB (if still sufficient as mana reg rotation) -> ABarr -> start again
    or
    -> Offschool spell (if none of the above applies) -> ABarr -> start again
  • Mana reg scales with haste in a way that haste doesn't lower your performance due to higher mana consume with faster spells (not sure if this is the case right now, if not it should be implemented for Arcane anyways)

Existing mana regeneration tools
Evocation: Counters high damage rotation with cooldown use
Mana reg rotation

Suggestions

Adapting Mana Adept damage buff
Mana adept has clear thresholds for a behavior change (instead of applying a linear buff, though I'm not sure how it is implemented atm.). The numbers could look like:
  • At 80% mana no increase or decrease is applied
  • Below 80% mana a hyperbolic function is applied, that reduces the damage to 20% at 0 mana.
  • Above 80% mana a function is applied, that increases the damage and scales with mastery rating.
Accomplished: The player has a relatively good idea on when man adept works in his favour and when it doesn't

Mana adept damage decrease timer
Mana adepts damage malus has a timer to only apply after a distinct period of mana consume, non mana regeneration or after casting x damaging spells. In addition if it is active it expires after a distinct percent of mana regenerated.
This could be implemented by debuffs: If you drop below 80% mana (or whatever the balanced threshold is) the debuff "Mana Junki" is applied. This debuff stacks up to 5 times and gets a stack each time you cast a damaging spell. After reaching 5 stacks it applies the damage decrease. After x% mana regenerated the debuff expires and the game starts again if you are still below 80%.
Variables to play around with
  • Damage could be decreased from the beginning but only with a 20% per stack value to further smooth out damage decrease.
  • Instead of letting the debuff expire on x% mana regenerated, the stack size could be reduced by x/5% mana regenerated. Then the stack should either not increase with spellcasts if you have a positive mana balance or should increase with y% mana consumed rather then per spellcast.
Accomplished: The possibility to even cast below 80% mana with clever use of burn - reg cycles. Below 80% "burn - reg" may be a more valid tactic then balanced mana use (I somewhat have a vision of starting with a balanced but still mana decreasing rotation at 100%, while going to higher damage rotations over run to 80% and falling into burn - reg cycles afterwards). The implementation via debuffs gives the player a clear feedback of the current situation.

Mana exhaustion
Further going the way of Mana Junki, the debuff could stack even higher (say to 10 stacks) and after reaching a stack size of 10 it transforms into the mana exhaustion debuff. Under influence of this debuff all spells stop damaging but reward mana in different ways: Arcane Barrage applies a MOT (Mana over time), Arcane Blast increases the effect of all mana regenerating spells cast on the target Arcane Missiles transforms it's damage to mana (in a valid ratio) and Arcane Explosion rewards an amount of mana from each target hit. All cooldowns and cast times are set to 0 for the duration of the buff (to shorten the regeneration period).
The debuff wears off at 100% mana, after a given time or maybe after a given amount of mana regenerated (or all of them). Maybe even after a given amount of targets hit under the debuff effect to give further choices on what reg strategie would be the best.
Maybe another spell (frost bolt?) would have to be taken into consideration too as a single target direct mana source if AM hasn't procced and for leveling (as AB comes fairly late) if Mana Adept is granted at level 10.
Accomplished: To reach the Arcane Exhaustion debuff may be a long way (Maybe 10 stacks are not enough) with low damage, but should reward the player with massive mana regeneration over a short period of time. The player has to choose whether to try to get the debuff at all and if so when the best time would be. The high damage rotation abilities coming off cool down may be a valid use to boost mana up to 100% before hands with this. Again the debuff gives a clear feedback.

Balancing concerns
  • Raid replenishment effects
  • The rotations, the mana adept impact and regeneration should be balanced to get the following as general strategie over the course of a long fight:
    • 100% Mana: either heavy damage rotation followed by Evocation or balanced but still mana consuming rotation (for example 3xAB->ABarr->2xAB->ABarr)
    • running towards 80%: rotations get heavier (as damage decreases, spells have to pull the weight)
    • below 80%: spiraling downwards (mana wise) with burn - reg cycles or regenerating upwards to start again with balanced rotations
    • nearing 0%: burning mana followed by heavy regeneration through Mana Exhaustion

Additional wishes
Fancy UI to represent all of this in a better way then buffs / debuffs can (at least the new inbuild Power Auras could be handy here).

Ingame explanation of effects
The arcane mages have mastered the direct manipulation of time and space. They extract the energies surrounding them from their environment, focus them and hurl them against their enemies to attack the very base of their existence, the space they ocupie, the time they exist in. But sipping at these energies of the world comes at a price. As the powers founding the world pulse through your body charging at blazing speed at your foes, they take little pieces of your own reality with them. Thus comes the time many mages sit down to rest and refresh them selfes, but the most skilled of the arcane masters have even mastered the ability to recapture the forces they threw at their enemies just moments ago and restore them selfes in the blink of an eye.

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Old 09/10/10, 6:22 AM   #127
Logix
Piston Honda
 
Undead Mage
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Mortos View Post
Maybe the rotation wont be just 3AB-MBAR or 4AB-MBAR. and it will be closer to what we had in TBC where spamming AB to a point will be a good thing and you will need to learn what is that point.

So you will do 8AB-MBAR at times if you have the mana but will risk your mana bar depleting and on other times you will do 3AB-MBAR for mana regen or some form like that.
Neither the base mana cost, nor the mana ramp up (175%) has changed from live to beta.

So no, there is no more reason to go AB4+ in Cataclysm then there is on live right now (barring the ABspam+ rotation, which is unsustainable).

AB4AM, with the current beta model, will be the default, goto, optimal DPS rotation. Just like it is on live.

In fact, there is almost no change in Arcane with the current beta model. If you want to know how arcane plays in Cataclysm, just play it on live right now. It's pretty much identical.


There is a lot of things wrong with this new model of Arcane. Hopefully I will get enough time tomorrow to go over them. The (tldr) version of some basic issues is:

1. Nothing will change. Arcane under the current beta model plays almost exactly the same as it does right now on live.

2. There is no decision to be made. ABx4 AM due to higher DPM (and mana adept) is your rotation. Live it. Love it. For two more years.

3. ABr is artificially being made useful through a process I like to call "eliminate the competition". By making AM a proc, you have essentially forced Arcane mages to cast ABr. Not because it is a good spell, but because there is no other spell they can cast.

4. The fact that AB doesn't buff arcane spells anymore, just means the majority of the Arcane specs damage will come through AB, making any DPS differential between ABr and AM meaningless, since their contribution to overall damage will be insubstantial.


The saddest part of the new beta Arcane changes is that people are so focused on the AB change that they are totally forgetting the other issues with the arcane spec right now.

Issues such as the fact that the current version of the Arcane talents do absolutely nothing to change the way Arcane plays, or change up what we will be casting. i.e. an 1/0/0 arcane spec will play exactly like a fully specced arcane mage.

Or the fact that Arcane really has no AoE option (not because we have to AoE in melee range, but because we can't AoE in melee range, since we have not been given the survivability tools of specs that do AoE in melee range, e.g. Demo locks who can not only get into melee range at will (Demon form leap), but can get out at will (Demonic teleport), all the while being resilient to melee damage.

Or the fact that we have to spend 6 talent points (TTW, Neather vortex, slow) to get a 6% passive damage buff, which doesn't even require us to change what we would be casting, i.e. if you remove those three talents, we would still be just casting Arcane blasts and following our usual ABx4AM rotation.

Or the fact that Arcane has almost no battlefield control.


I understand that I am, somewhat uncharacteristically, being brutally honest here (I am taking a page out of Luph's playbook). But at the end of the day, this really is how things will turn out, imho.

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Old 09/10/10, 8:49 AM   #128
Lylandra
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Die Nachtwache (EU)
I believe the current intention from Blizz is a clear "going back to the roots of TBC" idea. Even if we put all mechanical hindrances aside (like 3ABAM or 4ABAM being the only viable options and 4AB+ being not beneficial), I will still hold on to my opinion that management through spamming of one button should be a relic of the past and does not suit Cataclysm.

Plus making the "reactive procc" a mana conserving tool seems wrong. Conservation should be more reliable than expension. We should not go hard oom because of bad luck since, unlike fire, we lack a no-mana-rotation.

And I fear that the "complete arcane issue" cannot be resolved by band-aid fixes like in this current beta build. There's simply not enough variation in our three arcane nukes that allow such things unless we changed the very way each one of them is operating. AM and ABarr are just too similar (put procc and casting times aside they "just do damage") and non-interactive. If arcane shall really have to go with only three spells (and as I stated, I'm all for new spells), each one of them needs to be highly complex and do something different than the other.

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Old 09/10/10, 11:27 AM   #129
Parahelios
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Thunderlord
I personally think this is a very interesting change and, once the numbers are balanced, should provide a very TBC-like experience for Arcane Mages. Even in TBC, there was a 'minimum' conservation cycle you could support without taking a significant DPS loss - it was determined by AB's debuff time. You could only squeeze in X number of frostbolts before you dropped your AB stack and had to re-ramp. Now it will be determined by ABarr's cooldown, which accomplishes the same thing from the opposite direction - there is always a minimum of Y AB's you need to cast before you can downshift mana consumption.

If that doesn't make sense, I guess another way to say it is that there is always a lowest-burn cycle before you either have to start over (TBC) or stop casting (Cata). One is based on the number of filler you can provide, the other based on the time before you can reset consumption.

I do agree that's odd to have the DPM clear as the proc and the DPS as the standard clear however.

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Old 09/10/10, 12:11 PM   #130
Pasture
Don Flamenco
 
Pasture's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Steamwheedle Cartel (EU)
Regarding the new Arcane changes:

The Good:

1. Arcane gets a burn cycle again. Yes, in WotLK spamming AB is still ever so slightly a dps increase over ABx4, Missile Barrage, but it was never enough to be a burn cycle. Under this model spamming Arcane Blast will be a true burn cycle in that it will do substantially more dps than our normal cycle. If the glyph stays (and it has so far) a mage spamming Arcane Blast will be doing +92% damage.

2. Arcane AoE is that bit more useful and competitive. Pulling threat seems like a complete non-issue and though there is still the threat of cleaves etc, they never stopped me spamming AE in WotLK, which was very competitive under cooldowns, not so without.


The Bad:

1. Arcane Barrage and Arcane Missiles will hit like a wet lettuce. For Fire and Frost their proc and cooldown spells are big hitters (ie Pyroblast / Deep Freeze) that you're excited to cast. Missile Barrage was exciting to cast in WotLK. Rounding off your rotation with Arcane Barrage / Missiles is going to feel like a disappointment under this model. It will also have the effect of further weakening Arcane's ability to move - an Arcane Barrage without an stack bonus isn't going to cut it as our movement option.

2. The mana tools still aren't there to support Mana Adept. Having a burn cycle is great. Without the tools to support it, though, there can be no burn cycle. There's also the complication of when a burn cycle stops being worth it because the Mana Adept mastery counteracts the stack bonus as you drop mana.

3. Torment the Weak. A universally hated talent. Dropping this and replacing it with an active mana tool seems like a good idea.

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Old 09/10/10, 3:52 PM   #131
Skallewag
Piston Honda
 
Skallewag's Avatar
 
Gnome Mage
 
Moonglade (EU)
Some ideas to start adressing arcane problems:

Going back to the roots of AB has a certain appeal to me, it was generally a one spell rotation and it was still fun. But ramping up its damage just isn´t as much fun as building up speed was. So to get that feeling back I´d love to see arcane mages starting to warp time more and more with each cast. But a bit more than just shortening the casttime of AB. So with some talent augmentation each cast could shorten th cast time of the next AND add some additional effect to play on the feeling that when arcmages put their mind to it they can channel magic like maniacs, kinda like fire has the feel "muahahha Im gonna set the world on fire".

AB1: The next non arcane spell you cast has no GCD. This would allow you to cast for example an icelance or fireblast to break the stack but instantaniously also start casting another AB. Simply it lets you break the stack with offschool spells to conserve mana but it wouldn´t make your DPS suck since it eats no cast time. Also it should be hard to abuse in PvP since you haveto stand still casting to keep casting double spells. Also it plays in the time manipulation theme by squezing in a spell where another mage would have been unable to.

AB2: The next AB you cast can be cast while moving. (With this arcane would get mobility and wouldn´t haveto disrupt their cycle to reposition and to take pvp into consideration you haveto get two ABs off to start casting them on the run and you haveto keep casting ABs to cast on the run so it´s survivability at the cost of your manabar.)

AB3: Increases your runspeed by 50% for 8 sec. Now your eyes are ablaze with arcane energy as time bends to your will. Whee running around at high speed casting fast like theres no tomorrow as long as you think your mana can keep it up.

Something like that, all effects trying to adress arcane issues while supporting a haste theme. (If I´m unclear on this all of the effects are supposed to stick around as you gear up so when you´re in 3:rd gear you have all of them as long as you cast only ABs.

To adress AoE I had a two point talent reducing GCD and adding a very short defensive buff in mind. Something like 0.2/0.4 reduced GCD after each cast and reducing the chanse to be hit by melee attacks by 30/60% chanse for 1.5 sec after each cast. (I have no idea if these are balanced evasion numbers for melee AoE or if it would be to easy to abuse in PvP, they are just an example.) This would also play on the time and space theme allowing arcane mages to spam AE really fast and also displacing you for a short time to make them a bit less squishy. Perhaps a little runspeed addition would be suitable here as well to make you more mobile while spamming AEs.

How about something like this? It all plays on existing spells so no new graphics or anything like that needed, also tries to tie the arcane theeme together a bit and makes it a very mobile spec, perhaps the most mobile spec but wouldn´t that be a reasonable tradeoff for less battlefield controll? Also much of the mobility comes at the price of heavy manausage.

Edit: Hey I was on the right track on AE it seems. I missed the change in the talent tree when I was typing my reply. However some way to avoid massive cleaves is probably still in order.

Last edited by Skallewag : 09/10/10 at 4:15 PM.

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Old 09/10/10, 7:29 PM   #132
Taelons
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Bloodhoof (EU)
To be able to get a better idea how Arcane is on beta, I've been leveling as Arcane spec. Here is how Arcane blast now works.

-AB debuff only increases the mana and damage of Arcane blast.
-Each AB debuff increases AB mana cost by 175% and the damage by 20%, glyphed 23% (can stack 4 times)
-AB debuff lasts 6 seconds
-Only Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage, Arcane Explosion removes the AB debuff stack all other spells like Fireblast, CoC don't remove it.



Now how might the DPS rotation look like:
-Standard rotation: 3/4x AB > Arcane Missiles, if Arcane Missiles isn't available then Arcane Barrage
-Burst rotation: AB spam


With the change to the AB debuff, I expect there to be a much bigger difference between burst and your standard rotation. The negative part is that Mastery rating and possible Future set bonuses might make the difference between the standard rotation and burst too small again (like on live).

How it looks now I can see the 2 rotations work out in one of two ways for Raiding. In both situations you will hopefully use the burst rotation to empty your mana pool right before the boss dies.
1) You will switch between burst and standard rotation based on your Evocation cool down
2) You will only use burst rotation if the encounter allows you to get free evocations off. This means using evocation when no one can DPS. You could even sacrifice your DPS meter epeen and evocate during encounters like the Sindragosa Air fase. With fights like Festergut and Rotface you will only use the standard rotation.


For the 2e example it would be great to allow Evocation on the move, since this would open much free evocation moments. If there was a spell however that actually replaced the function of evocation, you basically got the mana management we were talking about?? There might be possibility however that this supposed spell would just be merged in the standard rotation .

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Old 09/11/10, 5:07 AM   #133
Logix
Piston Honda
 
Undead Mage
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Pasture View Post
2. The mana tools still aren't there to support Mana Adept. Having a burn cycle is great. Without the tools to support it, though, there can be no burn cycle. There's also the complication of when a burn cycle stops being worth it because the Mana Adept mastery counteracts the stack bonus as you drop mana.
I really am confused by this.

I mean seriously, what possible reason would Blizzard have not to see how important this point is?

What could be the possible reasons why they can't just solve this issue with a simple spell. Something that is the antithesis of Arcane Blast. It doesn't even have to be very complicated, even something along the lines of a spell that has a cast time, doesn't do much damage but buffs the mana regeneration gained from Mage Armor by 300% (and stacks) for say, 6 seconds, or something. That alone would add so much more 'dynamic play' to the spec. In essence, it can be the complete opposite in function to Arcane blast.

So while Arcane blast allows us to burn mana at an alarming rate, this new spells allows us to regain mana at an alarming rate. Similar to how Arcane Blast is unsustainable, this spell would be unsustainable since it does so little damage (but instead regenerates our mana really fast). After all, all that we need to get the mana management game started is to have some way to regenerate mana outside of cooldowns. Something that forces us to choose between DPS and mana regen (and no, the "mana free AM" won't do, since the choice of casting AM is a 'no brainer' due to its DPM and 'closeness' in DPS to ABr).

Take a loot at this quote, for example (found here).
Quoting Kalgan...
Yeah I was thinking about that myself. Here's my take on it:

I think it's more about managing your average, until the very end where you would wanna burn everything off. Let's say that 50% mana gives Mana Adept about the same overall damage bonus that all other class/spec masteries have. So that's your target average. If you let that average fall lower than 50%, Mana Adept is worse off than having a stable, consistent mastery. If your average mana stays above 50%, Mana Adept would be better than anyone else's mastery.

Let's also say you can barely maintain the minimum of 2 stacks per rotation and average 50% mana throughout a raid boss fight. That's a decent balance between benefiting from mana adept and normal damage. Sure you may have enough mana to manage 3 stacks per rotation, but the loss of damage from Mana Adept would prevent it from being optimal. But maybe you'd wanna throw in 3x blasts every now and then and sustain 45% mana.

At some point (after you get more and more gear), you may have enough mana to average 75% on average with the 2x rotation. At that point, you can throw in more 3x stacks to keep the average mana pool a little bit lower, but do more damage overall. It's going to be interesting where the two benefits will intersect. But I really, really hope we won't be as mana starved as we are now when appropriately geared and raid buffed.
Yep, this. That's the theory, at least.
Do they not realize that this 'theory' of theirs doesn't really equate to mana management? But instead just artificially changes the "OOM" point of the Arcane mage?

Balancing damage around a mage being at or above a set mana % does not lead to much management. It just forces the mage to consider that mana % as his new 'oom point'.

However, if you gave the mage a tool that allows him to regain mana fast, but at a clear cut dps penalty (like the spell that interacts with mage armor described above), this will at least cause the mage to think about what to cast.


Just like there is 'skill' involved in knowing when to stop spamming Arcane Blast, there will be 'skill' involved in knowing when to stop using the spell that buffs Mage Armor (since if you spent all your time spamming it, you would fall to far behind in DPS).

But just the fact that you have this 'hypothetical' mana regen spell, allows you to play around with the mana %. You will have to decided how much AB you want to spam because that will directly influence how much of this "regen blast" you have to spam. And you don't want to spam the "regen blast" too much since you will fall behind on DPS.


I mean seriously, it is such a simple thing, but I am baffled why Blizzard's "theory" doesn't include the simple idea that we can't have mana management if we don't have anything that will actually allow us to increase our mana levels outside of long cooldowns.

The basic core tenant of 'mana management' of any sorts means that you have tools that not only allow you to consume your resources at alarming rates, but allow you to regenerate your resource as well.



Can anyone else find a reason for not having, or the harm in, having a spell, with a cast time, that does poor damage, that buffs the mana regen of Mage Armor by like 300%, and stacks (to say, 3)? Or how such a spell would not lead to a much more engaging mana management experience? I sure can't.

Last edited by Logix : 09/11/10 at 6:10 AM.

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Old 09/11/10, 6:21 AM   #134
Oxylos
Von Kaiser
 
Draenei Shaman
 
<Ten>
Ner'zhul
While I may be wrong, it seems to me that with the current state of arcane mages that if in a vacuum 1% haste, 1% crit, and 1% mastery all gave the same dps increase (which is impossible even if that was the goal but serves a purpose to demonstrate...) that you would essentially want to avoid haste like the plague.

Given all things equal, haste comes with the downside of making you spend your mana faster. While it has often been easy to simply not care about this, or to just be slightly more aware of your casting to control when you go OOM, with Mana Adept this consequence affects every single cast you ever make. By spending your mana faster to do the same amount of damage as simply critting more often, you are giving up damage through the mastery.

Unless I'm mistaken it would seem to me as if the optimal amount of arcane mage haste is essentially zero, assuming that you could always trade it for equally budgeted amounts of crit and mastery (much like the ICC loot arrangement). In fact if it were possible to gear for negative haste and trade it for crit to a point where a AB*2 Abarr rotation became reliable that would possibly be the correct play.

Obviously this does not make haste by itself bad, but if X budget of haste and X budget of crit give the same theoretical dps increase, crit seems like it should be winning by a mile.
Just seems like an interesting and perhaps unintended departure from mage play in the past.

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Old 09/11/10, 7:36 AM   #135
Aleema
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Regarding rotations: i think they are shooting for something like this:

1) "Efficent rotation": AB3>Abarr, use MBAM as soon as it procs
2) "Standard rotation 1": AB3>Abarr, use MBAM at 3 stacks if it has procced.
3) "Standard rotation 2": AB4>Abarr, use MBAM at 4 stacks if it has procced.
4) "Burn rotation": AB Spam.

The obvious problem with that, as other have pointed out, is that your dpm spell is a proc. Which is a design i really, really don't like.

Regarding AoE, it's in a terrible state. Since they won't give us new spells, the one solution i see is making AE go off on the target rather than around the mage. It will lose it's role as a pvp stealth breaker, but it's not big deal since we still have Blizzard/Flamestrike/Cone of Cold for that.

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