Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release - Page 12

• ash2ash · 10/08/10, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

- Relative stat values at lvl 85, with expected lvl 85 combat ratings in heroic instance level gear. Has their been any final consensus on the relative values of Mastery vs Crit vs Haste vs Int? I've read a few posts over the months, but not sure how accurate these still are. (People will ask the question: "Should I stack Mastery, crit or haste")

One thing to note regarding this - currently, the tick damage for damage over time spells is calculated indepenently of haste. Extra ticks get applied only after the tick damage is determined, i.e. for equal spellpower, a living bomb at 87.5% haste will tick for exactly the same as a living bomb at 0% haste, it just adds 4 ticks, so there are going to be haste breakpoints that add quite large values to spell dps. The point of spellpower that gets you to 12.5% haste is going to add 25% to your living bomb dot dps.

The same thing goes with combustion as well - it ticks every second so the breakpoints are 5%+n*10%.

As far as coefficients go, I've been doing some testing on damage over time effects and how combustion interacts.

I did some testing at various spellpower levels and I've found that the combustion dot ticks for pyroblast (and probably living bomb) scale completely linearly with the pyroblast dot ticks by the relationship y = 10.33 + 0.299*x. I haven't been able to rationalize that number through damage multipliers and talents, but this should make it a lot simpler to calculate dot damage: You can apply spellpower to the damage calculation then add the haste effects afterwards.

Spellpower	Pyro DoT Tick	Combustion DoT Tick	LB DoT Tick	Combustion DoT Tick
3645	771.00	241	1815	560
3230	717.00	224	1670	516
2042	562.00	179	1255	393
1618	507.00	162	1107	349
1286	463.00	149	991	314
1123	442.00	143	934	297
177	319.00	105	604	199

For anybody curious, I was using this build. I chose talents so that I could avoid any that gave percentage damage bonuses. I was using Molten Armor, Frostfire Bolt, and Arcane Missiles glyphs, and I had mastery trained.

Incidentally, the tick damage for LB and pyroblast were respectively: 541.5 + charSpellpower*.3496 and 295.7 + charSpellpower*.1304

Edit: Added data for combustion interacting with living bomb. The formula for converting ticks came out to be 18.95+.2979*x.

Cartesian · 10/08/10, 7:16 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

- Gems: With several Cataclysm gem changes planned, what are the new options.

Going with current information, here a list of the level 80 gems even remotely relevant to us. I can't say much about the gemming strategy at lvl 80/85, but intuitively gemming Brilliants in red slots, Potent/Reckless in yellow ones and hitcap permitting, Veiled in blue ones is probably not at least awfully wrong. And yeah, those of us who have Purified Dreadstones in gear have to regem them when 4.01 hits live as the spi -> crit conversion is removed from Molten Armor. Runed Cardinal Rubies in gear are changed to Brilliants automatically.

RED
Brilliant Cardinal Ruby: +20 int

YELLOW
Quick King's Amber: +20 haste
Smooth King's Amber: +20 crit

BLUE
Rigid Majestic Zircon: +20 hit

ORANGE
Reckless Ametrine: +10 int/+10 haste
Potent Ametrine: +10 int/+10 crit

GREEN:
Lightning Eye of Zul: +10 haste/+10 hit
Forceful Eye of Zul: +10 haste/+15 sta
Jagged Eye of Zul: +10 crit/+15 sta

PURPLE:
Veiled Dreadstone: +10 int/+10 hit
Timeless Dreadstone: +10 int/+ 15 sta

All of these have a blue-quality equivalent at lvl 85 with twice the amount of stats, plus there are some additional lvl 85 gems:

Fractured Amberjewel (yellow): +40 mastery
Artful Ember Topaz (orange): + 20 int/+20 mastery
Sensei's Dream Emerald (green): +20 mastery/+20 hit
Puissant Dream Emerald (green): +20 mastery/+30 sta
Piercing Dream Emerald: +20 crit/+ 20 hit

Finally for jewelcrafters there's Dragon's Eyes at lvl 80 and Chimera's Eyes at lvl 85.

Maje · 10/08/10, 9:52 AM

I was trying to test the current proc chance of T3 Hot Sreak but it seems that on the current beta (build 13117) something is broken it just doesn't proc if you don't have the T4 version.

Also as someone already mentioned Pyroblast! dot is treated differently than Pyroblast they both overwrite each other but the Hot Streaked version doesn't get spread by Impact.

EDIT: Actually it just doesn't work on the beta, T3 just doesn't proc.

Leguaran · 10/08/10, 11:13 AM

My biggest concerns with fire spec at the moment in cataclysm is that I'm having huge issues seeing it as a decent entry-level spec with the reduced amount of crit. I suppose it would be somewhat alleviated if T3 HS was working properly, but then, with the proposed changes to crit % on higher tier bosses, I wonder where we will be sitting as far as crit goes on a raid we are adequately geared for.

Doesn't it feel somewhat weird that our fire mastery improves dot power, but a rather large portion of our dot damage is related to critting?

• ash2ash · 10/08/10, 2:47 PM

Couple of formulas that I've verified on the PTRs. They worked out to within about 1 damage at all spell levels I tested at level 80. If anybody has access to different level mages on the PTRs, you could probably figure out the level coefficient for the base damage of each spell:

FFB tick damage = frostfirestacks*(1+.01*FirepowerTalent)*(1+0.025*charMastery)*1.25*(7 + .00733*charSpellpower)

Combustion off of ffb stacks does ridiculously low damage even with a 3 stack, and it doesn't appear to scale in any way with spellpower. I was getting combustion ticks for about 3.3*(# of stacks) at 177 spellpower and 3645 spellpower. I think this is a bug - it's probably just factoring in the base damage of combustion off of a FFB stack, but not any scaling.

LB tick damage = (1+.01*FirepowerTalent)*(1+0.025*charMastery+0.05*CriticalMassTalent)*(1.25)*(360+charSpellpower*.233))

Note that the critical mass talent is additive with the mastery bonus (took me while to figure that one out!). Also noteworthy: The living bomb glyph currently only affects the explosion.

Pyroblast tick damage = (1+.01*FirepowerTalent)*(1+0.025*charMastery)*1.25*(7 + .3*(197 + charSpellpower*.0866))

All of the rest of the spells behave in some logical fashion (as in they can be explained by known damage multipliers). The base spell coefficients are consistent with the ones that came from simulationcraft.

Another thing that I verified was that Combustion off of an ignite stack is so far only dependent on the amount of the crit and the number of points in the ignite talent. The tick damage for combustion off of various ranks of ignite are:

0.1*damage for rank3
0.065*damage for rank2
0.0325*damage for rank1

They obviously track proportionally, but I'm still mystified as to how exactly the game calculates the combustion ticks for ignite.

Tyrian · 10/08/10, 3:03 PM

The EJ Mage forum could use a separate thread which consolidated all info on:

- Cataclysm gems
- Cataclysm enchants, Librams and Glyphs (What they are, options you have, how to obtain them etc)
- Cataclysm reputations a raiding mage will be interested in
- Combat ratings
- Cataclysm Consumables (Pots, Flasks, Food)
- Listing of Racials for all classes
- Listing of all profession specific perks and bonuses
- Common Macros and mods
- Link to important resources (rawr, popular community spreadsheets and simulators etc)

A lot of the aforementioned doesnt really belong in spec-specific threads like 'a frost thread', but rather can be all pulled out and put into into a consolidated, separate resource - whilst spec specific discussion remains in the 3 spec threads. I noticed this when pondering what to update in the OP, because it'd be silly to put much of this into one spec specific thread - and need to re-paste it into the other 2 spec threads. The new thread would be the sort of place somebody could immediately go to and find answers to any of the above points at-a-glance in a concise format, without having to dig through various spec threads and see what was mentioned in which one.

As an example of of how this was done on the DK forum (though we would separate spec specific discussion from the rest, our DK friend has consolidated it all): http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105701-...ysm_if_i_fall/

It's a decent bit of work to compile all that infomation into table formats, but would be appreciated i'm sure by the community. Is anyone up for making this sort of thread with the aforementioned information? Maybe named something like, "Cataclysm Mage Resources".

Maje · 10/08/10, 7:31 PM

Did a short test, spamming scorch, was done on the current beta b13117, the test was done with a l80 mage specced fire but who didn't learn mastery, I'll include the interesting part of the log here.

1. Note that the first event in the log is Ignite being removed and I insured the 'bank' was 0 at this stage.
2. Note the scorch critical at 00:44:42.250 after which there is no Ignite refresh and apply which gets swallowed.
3. Same thing happens at 00:44:50.500 where scorch crits, Ignite is not refreshed but critical mass is.
4. That part of the log results in a loss of 5307.2 Ignite damage.
5. I'm at a loss of why this happens, perhaps client lag which causes some events to get thrown, those 'swallowed' scorches seem to be occur just before ignite ticks.

00:44:39.078,SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:39.093,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:39.453,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:39.453,SPELL_CAST_START,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4
00:44:39.890,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,7079,7078,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
00:44:40.125,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:40.578,SPELL_CAST_START,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4
00:44:40.953,SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:40.953,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:40.953,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,7044,7043,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
00:44:40.953,SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,29077,"Master of Elements",0x40,79,0
00:44:41.203,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:41.562,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:41.562,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:42.000,SPELL_CAST_START,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4
00:44:42.000,SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,29077,"Master of Elements",0x40,79,0
00:44:42.250,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,7100,7099,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
00:44:42.250,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:42.859,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:42.859,SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,1883,1882,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:43.125,SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,29077,"Master of Elements",0x40,78,0
00:44:43.656,SPELL_CAST_START,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4
00:44:43.656,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,3452,3451,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:43.890,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:43.890,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:44.609,SPELL_CAST_START,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4
00:44:44.609,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,3430,3429,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:45.187,SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,1883,1882,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:45.203,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:45.609,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:45.609,SPELL_CAST_START,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4
00:44:46.031,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,6846,6845,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
00:44:46.281,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:46.703,SPELL_CAST_START,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4
00:44:46.703,SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,1883,1882,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:46.703,SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:46.703,SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:46.703,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:47.078,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,3370,3369,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:47.359,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:47.781,SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,29077,"Master of Elements",0x40,79,0
00:44:47.796,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:47.812,SPELL_CAST_START,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4
00:44:47.812,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,3480,3479,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:48.531,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:48.890,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:48.890,SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,1540,1539,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:48.890,SPELL_CAST_START,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4
00:44:48.906,SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress"
00:44:49.296,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,7031,7030,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
00:44:49.687,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:49.703,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:50.093,SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,29077,"Master of Elements",0x40,78,0
00:44:50.500,SPELL_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,7023,7022,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil
00:44:50.750,SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF
00:44:50.750,SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,1451,1450,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:51.109,SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,29077,"Master of Elements",0x40,78,0
00:44:52.609,SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,1451,1450,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:54.921,SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,1451,1450,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
00:44:54.921,SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF
00:45:20.671,SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x01000000003A0B49,"Euclid",0x511,0xF13079A800002471,"Northrender's Training Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF

arch · 10/08/10, 10:21 PM

I have to echo the recent concern about molten armor for PvP fire (not to mention the insane mana issues with molten armor for PvE, which further removes crit from fire).

It always struck me as odd to literally force us into using molten armor this way. Sure, each spec now has very strong reasons to use its respective armor. But there are situations in pvp where we will be forced into mage armor and that will come at a price of mobility. Hot swapping armors will be a bit more forgiving now that scorch is free (assuming we have room for that in a PvP spec) and maybe that's the intent but I never really cared for _that_ reactive gameplay.

And the weirdest part is that fire starter disables the crit reduction portion of the armor, which pretty much only has a use in PvP and makes the armor all the more "meeh" outside the running scorches.

I also want to - again - stress that the current iteration of combustion is not a real burst cooldown for PvP, the version with guaranteed crit and a chance for hot streak was better in this regard.

Autumnfire · 10/09/10, 5:15 PM

about how much dps would i loose if i used ffb as a main nuke over fireball?

Zaldinar · 10/10/10, 7:44 AM

Here is Majes log reformatted to be a bit easier to read:

[00:44:39.078] - Ignite Faded, unresolved bank [0].

[00:44:39.890] - Scorch Crit 7079, current bank [2831.6]
[00:44:40.953] - Ignite Started.
[00:44:40.953] - Scorch Crit 7044, current bank [5649.2]
[00:44:41.562] - Ignite Refreshed.
[00:44:42.250] - Scorch Crit 7100, current bank [8489.2]
[00:44:42.859] - Ignite Tick 1883, current bank [6606.2].
[00:44:43.656] - Scorch Non-Crit 3452, current bank [6606.2]
[00:44:44.609] - Scorch Non-Crit 3430, current bank [6606.2]
[00:44:45.187] - Ignite Tick 1883, current bank [4723.2].
[00:44:46.031] - Scorch Crit 6846, current bank [7461.6]
[00:44:46.703] - Ignite Tick 1883, current bank [5578.6].
[00:44:46.703] - Ignite Faded, unresolved bank [5578.6].

[00:44:46.703] - Ignite Started.
[00:44:47.078] - Scorch Non-Crit 3370, current bank [0]
[00:44:47.812] - Scorch Non-Crit 3480, current bank [0]
[00:44:48.890] - Ignite Tick 1540, current bank [-1540].
[00:44:49.296] - Scorch Crit 7031, current bank [1272.4]
[00:44:49.687] - Ignite Refreshed.
[00:44:50.500] - Scorch Crit 7023, current bank [4081.6]
[00:44:50.750] - Ignite Tick 1451, current bank [2630.6].
[00:44:52.609] - Ignite Tick 1451, current bank [1179.6].
[00:44:54.921] - Ignite Tick 1451, current bank [-271.4].
[00:44:54.921] - Ignite Faded, unresolved bank [-271.4].

Edit: Revised reformatting. Posted log is not in the normal combat log format so the script needed another tweak to make it handle correctly.

Maje · 10/10/10, 7:59 AM

The scorches that hit for less than 6k are not critical (iscritical=0), the log I posted is raw since I wanted all the information to be available.

Also note that at 00:44:46.703 when Ignite is removed and than applied some of the previous bank is actually resolved, I'm guessing it's because of how events are sent in relation to the real calculations.

EDIT: One more thing, unrelated to the script but to make some things clearer; at 00:44:42.250 when the scorch crits and Ignite isn't applied in the log if you ignore that crit, the bank that you have at that point (5649.2) is in fact resolved to 0 after the 3 ticks of 1883, so like I said in my post in this case the clculations weren't buggy it's just that that Scorch wasn't taken into account at all. [Dosn't mean that Ignite isn't bugged in other ways as well.]

Maje · 10/10/10, 5:32 PM

Did a little more testing at l80 after I noticed that T3 does in fact work for my l85 mage.

Spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
No glyphs, no buffs, no target debuffs; vs l80 testing dummy.

l80:
184 int
0 crit rating
2.01% crit

1955 scorches
44 crits (2.25% crit)
34 hs procs (77.27% proc chance)
108 Impact procs (5.5% proc chance, seems bugged to me)

l80:
2052 int
1463 crit rating
45.13% crit

2109 scorches
982 crits (46.56% crit)
11 hs procs (1.12% proc chance, with such a 'high' proc chance no wonder I thought it was bugged)
98 Impact procs (4.64% proc chance, certainly bugged)

I'll run another test with around 20% crit chance and only one point in Impact, first to get another datapoint for T3 HS and secondly to see if the second point in Impact actually does anything.

EDIT: Ok another run;
Same spec as above except with one point in Impact.

l80:
1381 int
624 crit rating
22.81% crit

1945 scorches
513 crits (26.37% crit)
67 hs procs (10.73% proc chance)
73 Impact procs (3.75% proc chance)

and yet another 1 point in Impact.

l80:
861 int
276 crit rating
12.10% crit

3249 scorches
357 crits (10.98% crit)
97 hs procs (27.17% proc chance)
99 Impact procs (3.04% proc chance)

In conclusion T3 HS proc chance scales inversely (exponentially) with crit chance and hits a 0 at around 45-50% crit. Subjectively it seems quite low, assuming around 20% crit (buffs only, not debuffs) we'll have about 10% T3 proc chance. Much much lower than what we're seeing now. The fact that Blizzard is not specifying clearly how T3 proc works is extremely annoying and will undoubtedly be a source of many stealth changes.

Impact is quite definitely not 5% per point, it seems closer to 2.5% per point.

I tried checking how Combustion works but that too doesn't seem to work as advertised, there are various things at play that differ by dot type and various coefficients, again, extremely annoying.

I should probably wrap all the data in a pretty table, though I have no idea how to do that.

Shaewyn · 10/10/10, 11:49 PM

Ok, taking the data from Maje's tests and having fun with math:

Crit Chance	Scorches	Crits	HS procs	Crit %	HS per Crit	HS %
0.0201	1955	44	34	0.022506394	0.772727273	0.017391304
0.121	3249	357	97	0.109879963	0.271708683	0.02985534
0.2281	1945	513	67	0.263753213	0.130604288	0.034447301
0.4513	2109	982	11	0.465623518	0.011201629	0.005215742

Graphing this and looking for an exponential regression:

A formula that fits Maje's data (exponential regression) is:

y=0.9472e^(-9.134x)

Now we can use the formula we found earlier in this thread:
$P = P(\text{T3 HS}) + P(\text{T4 HS}) - P(\text{T3 and T4 HS}) = k*c + c^2 - k*c^2$

Using the exponential formula from Maje's data, we know $k=0.9472e^{-9.134c}$

so: $P(\text{T3 HS})=0.9472e^{-9.134c}*c$

Here's the trouble. If T3 HS does not reset T4 HS, then:
$P(\text{T4 HS})=c^2$

if T3 does reset the T4 HS counter (as I suspect), then:
$P(\text{T4 HS})=(c-(0.9472e^{-9.134c}*c))^2$

So, this gives us these graphs:

Particularly interesting:

As we can see, the 20% crit line is where the T4 Hot streak becomes more valuable than the T3 hot streak.

Notes:
* the exponential formula will not be quite correct, due to the nature of binomial distributions and crit chances. It is likely, however, to be close.
* The relative value of T3 and T4 HS depends on the exact "resetting" nature of the two procs. (i.e. does a T3 HS proc reset the counter for the T4 HS?)

Tyfon · 10/11/10, 2:07 AM

Is it possible that Maje's data on Impact proc % is low because the log only tracks new procs, not refreshes?

Maje · 10/11/10, 3:19 AM

It bloody hell does, my appologies for botching the queries up, the updated numbers in a nicer table courtesy of Shaewyn, the numbers that changed where HS and Impact procs:

Hot Streak:

Crit Chance	Scorches	Crits	HS procs	Crit %	HS per Crit	HS %
0.0201	1955	44	40	0.022506394	0.909090909	0.02046035
0.121	3249	357	211	0.109879963	0.591036414	0.06494306
0.2281	1945	513	158	0.263753213	0.307992203	0.08123393
0.4513	2109	982	12	0.465623518	0.012219959	0.00568990

It still drops do 0 at the same percentage of crits however it is much higher at lower percentages.

Impact

Scorches	Points In Impact	Procs	Impact %
1955	2	193	9.87
2109	2	192	9.10
1945	1	112	5.76
3249	1	161	4.96

We can all relax it is indeed 5% per point.

Again apologies for broken data in the previous post. Perhaps if Shaewyn redid the graphs we'll be good to go.

Zaldinar · 10/11/10, 5:01 AM

Maje, do you still have the raw combat logs for this?

Maje · 10/11/10, 5:34 AM

Yes, I have 4 separate logs, I changed the files slightly so I can read them as a csv-s but that's it, each has the amount of crit in the file name so it should be easy to match them.

I'll send you the link in a PM if anybody else wants them PM me, since the upload service is limited I don't want it to get capped by random downloads.

EDIT: the best fitting regression function I found was actually a polynom, and we can safely flatten it from around 47% crit where it 0.

y = 3.536191224*x^2 - 3.755802532*x + 0.9861411843

gogetass2 · 10/11/10, 8:22 AM

Regarding combustion, it seems to be double dipping atleast from haste, and I kinda suspect if for other stats aswell.

Here's an sample in FoS on the last boss with ub 2066 int, 2405 sp 561 haste (17,11%) 1135 crit rating (41,07%) and 20.57 mastery (51%)

Had ele shaman (10% sp 5% haste + bloodlust), a warlock (8% spell damage) a prot paladin (kings) and a priest as healer.

Having all the max single target talents + 2/3 haste 3/3 crit and berserking from trolls I got following total combustion damage

Which is 22 tics, where I could max get 18 hits outside lust (including BM).

Weather it double dips from mastery or not and how crit effects it I don't know.

Seems to be a dot that combines all the damage into a new that you essicially apply then modify it again with certain things like haste.

Edit: yes missing the T10 2 set bonus.

• ash2ash · 10/11/10, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by gogetass2

Regarding combustion, it seems to be double dipping atleast from haste, and I kinda suspect if for other stats aswell.

1.1711(rating)*1.05(WoA)*1.02(NWP)*1.20(Zerking)*1.3(BL) = 1.956, so you should be getting 10 extra ticks with the buffs you typed. Are you sure you're not missing 4pT10 (12% haste), because that would bring it to 2.19, or 22 ticks.

Elimbras · 10/11/10, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Shaewyn

Here's the trouble. If T3 HS does not reset T4 HS, then:
$P(\text{T4 HS})=c^2$

if T3 does reset the T4 HS counter (as I suspect), then:
$P(\text{T4 HS})=(c-(0.9472e^{-9.134c}*c))^2$

To make it more explicit (because I'm not sure of which formula you used for which graphs), here are the final formulas, assuming that HS can proc of Fireball and Pyroblast.
1/ If T3 HS reset the counter, we have:
$P(\text{T4 HS}) = P(\text{spell } n-1 \text{ crit and did not proc T3 HS}) \times P(\text{spell } n \text{ crit}) = c^2 (1-k(c))$
and the final formula is:
$P(\text{HS}) = k(c) c + c^2(1-k(c))^2$

2/ If T3 HS does not reset the counter (that's easier to deal with):
$P(\text{HS}) = k(c) c + c^2 (1 - k(c))$

Shaewyn · 10/11/10, 2:43 PM

Alrighty. The updated data from Maje makes for some really interesting math.

The exponential regression is no longer a good fit. Here's the data with polynomial and linear regression lines:

The polynomial curve is a better fit to the data that Maje provided, however, I think that the linear line is probably the correct explanation. The linear model is simpler to manage and implement, and the integral of the linear model is a very nice parabola which nicely balances the T4 Hot streak chance - I would postulate that Blizzard actually started with the integral (per-cast chance) and then applied that to the T3 per-crit chance. Examine these graphs:

When you graph the per cast chance of the two models (i.e. taking the integral of the per-crit function), the linear model gives you a nice parabola with a (relatively) simple formula, and a vertex at 23% crit, 9.1% per cast hot streak chance.

Assuming a linear function for per-crit hot streak chance of: $k(c)=-1.7106c+.7893$

we can get these graphs:

Explicitly, the formulas I've used are:
$k(c)=-1.7106c+.7893$
$P(\text{T3 HS})=k(c)*c$
$P(\text{T4 HS})= c^2 (1-k(c))^2$
$P(\text{HS}) = k(c) c + c^2(1-k(c))^2$

I've use that formula for the T4 HS chance because it gives the net benefit from T4 HS. That is, it gives you:
$P(\text{T4 HS}) = P(\text{spell } n-1 \text{ crit and did not proc T3 HS}) \times P(\text{spell } n \text{ crit and did not proc T3 HS})$

Notable observations from the graphs:

T3 HS gives you no benefit above 47% crit.
With the linear formula, T3 and T4 cross over at about 34% crit chance. That is, below 34% crit, T3 is more valuable, above that point T4 is more valuable.
Below 19% crit, T4 HS gives you less than 1% chance per cast for a HS proc, if you have T3 HS.
Below 9% crit, T4 HS gives you less than 0.1% chance per cast for a HS proc, if you have T3 HS.

I'm not sure of exact DPS % increases per point of T4 HS, but below 19% fully-buffed crit, T4 hot streak is terrible.

Tyrian · 10/11/10, 3:27 PM

I'm not sure of exact DPS % increases per point of T4 HS, but below 19% fully-buffed crit, T4 hot streak is terrible

This immediately made me wonder whether there's any niche builds for fresh 85 mages with low Combat Ratings, which intentionally skip T4 Hot Streak. It appears the answer is no, outside of unrealistic situational encounters.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - This has an easy job reaching Improved Blink and taking full Burning Soul. But losing T4 Hot Streak while at low levels of gear to do this (even if the % chance proc is so low) is not worth it, perhaps only in very specific encounter situations where Imp Blink could shine. (Can anyone think of some precedents where Imp Blink really could be this important or useful? Razorgore in Blackwing Lair could be one. Veteran mages will know the mage strat i'm referring to. Ossirian the Unscarred, Buru, Battleguard Sartura, Ouro submerge phases?)

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - The more likely option, but very situational. I removed a point from Piercing Ice, but depending on encounter type you could remove the point from Pyromaniac or Improved Flamestrike instead. If there was an encounter where Invocation could be guaranteed often (lets assume we always get an interrupt off, every CS cooldown) - what would theorycrafters value the talent at? How much DPS would Invocation be for a selection of +SP levels, and how does it compare to Tier 4 Hot Streak for a selection of low crit % ranges? (Bearing in mind it would be a build that skipped T4 Hot Streak to pickup Invocation.)

Also, I edited the (excellent) information provided by Maje and Shaewyn into the OP. In addition, a poster PM'd me recently and they will create a "Cataclysm Mage Resources" thread soon, which will be our mage forums consolidated reference for things such as: Gems, Enchants, Librams, Cataclysm reputations etc.

Maje · 10/11/10, 3:52 PM

I'm assuming T3 scales with your crit, ie. gear + buffs but not target debuffs eg. scorch. I'll make another run to see if it does.

To be honest I don't really like like how T3 is implemented, granted we may never reach the levels of crit we have now at level 85, but if we do come even somewhat close than we have a talent point we can't even utilise and it's a prerequisite for a talent we want (somewhat reminds me of Dragon's Breath and LB).

Anyway I'll run another test, with a gear amount of crit around 19% + Molten Armor (just because I want to make sure it's crit is taken into account by T3) and having Critical Mass to make sure debuffs don't get taken into account.

Maje · 10/11/10, 6:48 PM

Hopefully the last post in the series; I ran a test with the same character, using 7.49% crit chance from gear and Molten Armor + Glyph adding 5% more, I also had Critical Mass in my spec.

Crit Chance	Scorches	Crits	HS procs	Crit %	HS per Crit	HS %
0.1249	2666	483	271	0.181170292	0.561076604	0.10165041

As you can see character crit was 12.49% Critical Mass was adding 5% more so expected crit chance was 17.49% the crit rate during the test was 18.11% so pretty close to expected. Also the hs proc was 56.10% a number which according to the previous data set belongs to a 12.49% crit so it's safe to assume that any crit buff affects T3 proc chance while any target debuffs do not.

EDIT: It would be interesting to know if glyphed Fireball/Pyroblast affects T3 Hot Streak, but given that neither is free or sustainable it would be extremely annoying to check.

Elimbras · 10/11/10, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Shaewyn

When you graph the per cast chance of the two models (i.e. taking the integral of the per-crit function), the linear model gives you a nice parabola with a (relatively) simple formula, and a vertex at 23% crit, 9.1% per cast hot streak chance.

Thank you ! It's nice to see that the formula posted here are actually used by others.

This are minor details, but I assume the fact that I'm a mathematician.
1/ What you compute is absolutely not the integral of the per-crit function (and that would not make sense): it's just the multiplication of that function by the crit rate. In particular, the difference is that the integral of a*x is not a*x^2, but a/2 * x^2.
2/ It's even more minor, but the curve you state for the "integral" of the polynomial interpolation can't be the real one. It must be a polynomial of degree three, as the "integral" (or multiplication by x, it does not matter on that aspect) of a polynomial of degree 2.