Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release - Page 15

Zaldinar · 10/04/10, 5:05 AM

Well, you're right, something weird is happening with Ignite beyond the two well established bugs. Patch 13117 on Beta, with no mastery skill trained, not specced Fire Power or Molten Fury:

[09:47:33.878] - Fireball Crit 14117, current bank [5646.8]
[09:47:34.346] - Ignite Started.
[09:47:36.595] - Fireball Crit 14118, current bank [11294]
[09:47:36.598] - Ignite Tick 2824, current bank [8470].
[09:47:36.769] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:38.519] - Ignite Tick 2823, current bank [5647].
[09:47:39.678] - Fireball Crit 14431, current bank [11419.4]
[09:47:40.428] - Ignite Tick 2823, current bank [8596.4].
[09:47:40.432] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:41.937] - Fireball Crit 14354, current bank [14338]
[09:47:42.525] - Ignite Tick 3806, current bank [10532].
[09:47:44.135] - Fireball Crit 14583, current bank [16365.2]
[09:47:46.267] - Ignite Tick 3806, current bank [12559.2].
[09:47:46.278] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:46.441] - Ignite Tick 3213, current bank [9346.2].
[09:47:46.624] - Fireball Crit 14546, current bank [15164.6]
[09:47:47.586] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:48.521] - Ignite Tick 4082, current bank [11082.6].
[09:47:48.936] - Fireball Crit 14599, current bank [16922.2]
[09:47:49.085] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:50.472] - Ignite Tick 4667, current bank [12255.2].
[09:47:51.061] - Fireball Crit 14374, current bank [18004.8]
[09:47:51.792] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:52.607] - Ignite Tick 5028, current bank [12976.8].
[09:47:53.178] - Fireball Non-Crit 7077, current bank [12976.8]
[09:47:54.654] - Ignite Tick 5028, current bank [7948.8].
[09:47:55.597] - Fireball Non-Crit 7098, current bank [7948.8]
[09:47:56.363] - Ignite Tick 5028, current bank [2920.8].
[09:47:56.370] - Ignite Faded, unresolved bank [2920.8].

Any theories? Considering that this one:

[09:42:16.976] - Fireball Non-Crit 7053, current bank [0]
[09:42:19.393] - Fireball Crit 14279, current bank [5711.6]
[09:42:19.990] - Ignite Started.
[09:42:21.617] - Fireball Crit 14038, current bank [11326.8]
[09:42:21.632] - Ignite Tick 2856, current bank [8470.8].
[09:42:22.007] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:42:23.666] - Ignite Tick 2823, current bank [5647.8].
[09:42:23.854] - Fireball Crit 14169, current bank [11315.4]
[09:42:23.858] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:42:25.633] - Ignite Tick 3771, current bank [7544.4].
[09:42:26.091] - Fireball Crit 14182, current bank [13217.2]
[09:42:26.701] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:42:27.542] - Ignite Tick 4405, current bank [8812.2].
[09:42:28.653] - Fireball Non-Crit 7332, current bank [8812.2]
[09:42:29.665] - Ignite Tick 4405, current bank [4407.2].
[09:42:30.919] - Fireball Non-Crit 7195, current bank [4407.2]
[09:42:31.623] - Ignite Tick 4405, current bank [2.2].
[09:42:31.627] - Ignite Faded, unresolved bank [2.2].

Is generally okay (close enough for government work at least), but shows a three-tick ignite at the same value. Similar to one from the first log, but the numbers end up working out in the end.

If we have more examples of this in action we can probably figure out whats happening and report it as a problem.

Calindra · 10/04/10, 6:56 AM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Well, you're right, something weird is happening with Ignite beyond the two well established bugs. Patch 13117 on Beta, with no mastery skill trained, not specced Fire Power or Molten Fury:

[09:47:33.878] - Fireball Crit 14117, current bank [5646.8]
[09:47:34.346] - Ignite Started.
[09:47:36.595] - Fireball Crit 14118, current bank [11294]
[09:47:36.598] - Ignite Tick 2824, current bank [8470].
[09:47:36.769] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:38.519] - Ignite Tick 2823, current bank [5647].
[09:47:39.678] - Fireball Crit 14431, current bank [11419.4]
[09:47:40.428] - Ignite Tick 2823, current bank [8596.4].
[09:47:40.432] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:41.937] - Fireball Crit 14354, current bank [14338]
[09:47:42.525] - Ignite Tick 3806, current bank [10532].
[09:47:44.135] - Fireball Crit 14583, current bank [16365.2]
[09:47:46.267] - Ignite Tick 3806, current bank [12559.2].
[09:47:46.278] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:46.441] - Ignite Tick 3213, current bank [9346.2].
[09:47:46.624] - Fireball Crit 14546, current bank [15164.6]
[09:47:47.586] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:48.521] - Ignite Tick 4082, current bank [11082.6].
[09:47:48.936] - Fireball Crit 14599, current bank [16922.2]
[09:47:49.085] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:50.472] - Ignite Tick 4667, current bank [12255.2].
[09:47:51.061] - Fireball Crit 14374, current bank [18004.8]
[09:47:51.792] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:47:52.607] - Ignite Tick 5028, current bank [12976.8].
[09:47:53.178] - Fireball Non-Crit 7077, current bank [12976.8]
[09:47:54.654] - Ignite Tick 5028, current bank [7948.8].
[09:47:55.597] - Fireball Non-Crit 7098, current bank [7948.8]
[09:47:56.363] - Ignite Tick 5028, current bank [2920.8].
[09:47:56.370] - Ignite Faded, unresolved bank [2920.8].

Any theories? Considering that this one:

[09:42:16.976] - Fireball Non-Crit 7053, current bank [0]
[09:42:19.393] - Fireball Crit 14279, current bank [5711.6]
[09:42:19.990] - Ignite Started.
[09:42:21.617] - Fireball Crit 14038, current bank [11326.8]
[09:42:21.632] - Ignite Tick 2856, current bank [8470.8].
[09:42:22.007] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:42:23.666] - Ignite Tick 2823, current bank [5647.8].
[09:42:23.854] - Fireball Crit 14169, current bank [11315.4]
[09:42:23.858] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:42:25.633] - Ignite Tick 3771, current bank [7544.4].
[09:42:26.091] - Fireball Crit 14182, current bank [13217.2]
[09:42:26.701] - Ignite Refreshed.
[09:42:27.542] - Ignite Tick 4405, current bank [8812.2].
[09:42:28.653] - Fireball Non-Crit 7332, current bank [8812.2]
[09:42:29.665] - Ignite Tick 4405, current bank [4407.2].
[09:42:30.919] - Fireball Non-Crit 7195, current bank [4407.2]
[09:42:31.623] - Ignite Tick 4405, current bank [2.2].
[09:42:31.627] - Ignite Faded, unresolved bank [2.2].

Is generally okay (close enough for government work at least), but shows a three-tick ignite at the same value. Similar to one from the first log, but the numbers end up working out in the end.

If we have more examples of this in action we can probably figure out whats happening and report it as a problem.

The bolded lines seem to be the problem.
If you fireball crits the target right before ignite will tick, you will produce 3 or sometimes even 4 ignite ticks.
Just try to start the fight with two consecutive fireball crits at the right distance, so your fireball will hit the target right before ignite ticks, and you can reconstruct this 3-4 ignite tick behavior.

Though i have no idea, why your first example produces the wrong amount of ignite damage and the second one doesn't. But it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the 3-ignite-tick problem.

Hibbo · 10/04/10, 7:19 AM

Does anyone know why we still have a Talent like Burning Soul to reduce Cast Time Pushback when Blue stated a 70% Percent Reduction will be Baseline for all Classes?

Zaldinar · 10/04/10, 7:21 AM

Source on the blue claim? The one I saw said "Specs" in context of a given class, indicating it was meant for that class, not everyone.

arch · 10/04/10, 7:21 AM

I'm wondering the same. There's also no fire mage version of 10% spellpower buff yet but that might have been scrapped.

Hibbo · 10/04/10, 7:53 AM

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Holy paladin nerfs (12942)

Q u o t e:
Hopefully they just make the 70% baseline for everyone with no pushback with earth shield or concentration aura type spells. Spell pushback is one of those things that can really drive you crazy in both PvP and PvE.

We did. We just changed the base pushback resistance so that we didn't have to duplicate the same passive bonus in every tree.

This is the Post from Ghostcrawler im refering to. I checked now every other Caster/Healer Class and the Fire Talent Tree is the only one where i can find a Talent to reduce Pushback. And that`s realy strange.

Zaldinar · 10/04/10, 8:33 AM

Not strange at all, there are several quotes from GC out there about how uniqueness amongst classes is a good thing and something they want. Pushback being uniquely a mage concern is something that could well be just part of the class in their eyes. That is, assuming full pushback actually still happens to mages and wasn't removed and we just haven't noticed yet. An express statement that it is intended would be nice, but 'every tree' doesn't expressly imply anything further than them adding it to the passive bonuses in every tree that was going to get the treatment anyway via talents or special passive bonuses.

Unrelated note, some data collection on crit bonus and the CSD. The model for 1.5 * 1.33 for regular crits via the passive bonus ( DPS Caster Crit Damage Bonus - Spell - World of Warcraft ) seems to hold:

Non Crits:
        Min: 4020
        Max: 4188


Crits:
        Min: 8020
        Max: 8352


Expansions:
        By Min: 1.9950248756219
        By Max: 1.9942693409742


Delta from expected (1.5 * 1.33) = 1.995
        By Min: 2.4875621890352E-5
        By Max: -0.00073065902578806

Adding a CSD in does not obey the previous formulas we've used, looks like they've migrated to just flat multiplicative modifiers of the modifier itself, meaning (1.5 * 1.03 * 1.33):

Non Crits:
        Min: 4021
        Max: 4187


Crits:
        Min: 8265
        Max: 8605


Expansions:
        By Min: 2.0554588410843
        By Max: 2.0551707666587


Delta from expected (1.5 * 1.33) = 1.995
        By Min: 0.060458841084307
        By Max: 0.060170766658705


Delta from expected ((1.0 + 0.5 * 1.03) * 1.33) = 2.01495
        By Min: 0.040508841084307
        By Max: 0.040220766658705


Delta from expected (1.5 * 1.03 * 1.33) = 2.05485
        By Min: 0.00060884108430725
        By Max: 0.00032076665870528

Also Beta 13117 patch, scorch on a level 1 target dummy in Theramore specced around Firepower and Molten Fury to try to keep the amount of factors low. The only difference between the two trials is a Haste/Spirit gem added in to activate the CSD meta.

End result of this is Fires crit bonus is modeled as (1.5 * 1.03 * 1.33) * (1.0 + 0.4 * Mastery Bonus) with a CSD as a consideration.

emesis · 10/04/10, 10:05 AM

With the current implementation of Combustion as I understand it and the likelihood of the 4.0.1 patch going tomorrow or next week, I'm looking for some guidance on timing it's use.

My mage has the phylactery trinket, so I generally currently blow Combustion as part of a macro which also casts mirror image and slurps a flame cap when it procs near the start of a fight.

From what I understand, with the new DOT creation, the biggest impact on the DPS gain from using combustion would be to have a big Ignite rolling.

I have never paid attention to Ignite damage - there's not been a lot to do with it as far as I understand.

Now it seems like we should track it and blow Combustion separately from dps cooldowns and only when we have a big "stack" rolling. I understand that Ignite doesn't really stack, but that its damage is delayed when chain critting, at least on live. I haven't seen any discussion of that being changed with the new mechanics, although it's certainly possible I missed it.

Is that correct? And any suggestions for a way to monitor the current target's Ignite damage ticks?

Autumnfire · 10/04/10, 10:25 AM

For tracking damage in a clear format during combat i use an addon called Eavesdrop it can track damage done to or by you in addition to heals done to or by you, you could probably configure it to only show ignite ticks but if not it would be one way to know which of those rising numbers is what if you really want to know. if someone has something better i would love to hear it.

epoh · 10/04/10, 11:54 AM

Well, MSBT shows Ignite dmg. It should be fairly simple to adjust the settings to make it stand out more among the other damage scrolling by. I haven't had too much trouble monitoring my ignite dmg just with the standard MSBT text.

As to the best timing of Combustion I would say it's going to end up varying on each fight, but I would think that at the end of a burst period may end up being the best time to cast it, instead of the beginning.

Gilthanor · 10/04/10, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Pushback being uniquely a mage concern is something that could well be just part of the class in their eyes.

I can't imagine this being the case. I'm not sure why spell pushback would be a "feature" of the game that should only pertain to one class, and even if that were the case, wouldn't Fire be the spec with the least worries about pushback? Arcane and Frost are both going to much less of their damage from instant casts, and it seems like a talent that would go better with their "kitchen sink" approach to Arcane (not that I agree with that idea).

I'm hoping (and believe) that it's just an oversight. Even if they only made 70% pushback resistance baseline for some classes, I'd still expect Warlocks and probably Priests (the pure casters) to have to talent for it, and a 3 point talent seems severe for something that other classes get for free.

Maje · 10/04/10, 5:30 PM

The 3 (I think 4 tick are impossible see ahead) tick Ignites are due to the fact that Ignite ticks at set times and doesn't reset like it did. See http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t104767-...5/#post1750661 for an example.

That is unrelated to whatever makes it mis-behave.

Enthorn · 10/04/10, 8:19 PM

Originally Posted by Calindra

If you fireball crits the target right before ignite will tick, you will produce 3 or sometimes even 4 ignite ticks.

This isn't a bug new to Cataclysm, although the results are certainly new. See my post here from back in July of 09.

Ignite loss happens in two ways...
The first is when an ignite DoT is supposed to tick and a spell crits. Occasionally, the ignite damage that was supposed to tick is completely disgarded and the next ignite tick only includes the ignite damage from the spell that just crit.

The second is when two spells simultaneously crit. The way this works is that when two spells land and crit at the same time, the first one that lands and crits has its ignite damage completely discarded

However, from what you and others have been saying, it seems as though instead of dropping ticks, it's adding them? I'm sure it gets very confusing with so many different DoTs going on now and things to be calculated, and DoTs spreading. If someone could give me a full log, I could try to break it all down and find what damage is being missed/added.

Edit: I'll tackle Zaldinar's first log. God that's confusing. The numbers just don't add up. At 09:47'42.53 you have 3806 ignite damage. That should mean that the combination of previous unticked ignite damage should be 7612. That would most likely be two ticks of ignite from a Fireball crit plus one tick from a previous one. For instance, your first two Fireball crits should tick for 2823 and 2824 twice each. However, you get two 2823 ticks and one 2824. The next Fireball crit has ignite damage of 5,772. That should then be 5,772 + 2824 = 4298, but instead it ticks for 3,806. On top of that, look at the timing on the last tick of the 3806:

09:47'46.27 Ignite 3806
09:47'46.44 Ignite 3213

Why are those ignite damages ticking so close together?

Zaldinar · 10/05/10, 2:25 AM

For spell pushback, no spec chosen adds 500 MSec per interruption event. Choosing Fire spec keeps the addition at 500 MSec per interruption event. Speccing Burning Soul makes it 150 MSec per.

So, in summary, pushback still there for Mages in full force, burning soul does reduce it by 70%. Any political arguments and interpretations of blue statements aside, that's the state of things.

Anyone wishing to verify this:

TempData = {}
TempData.startTime = -1;
TempData.endTime = -1;

function pbtest()
   local spell, _, _, _, startTime, endTime = UnitCastingInfo("player")
   if spell then 
      
      if(startTime ~= TempData.startTime and TempData.startTime == -1) then
         ChatFrame1:AddMessage("New Spell Cast.")
         TempData.startTime = startTime
         TempData.endTime = endTime
         local finish = endTime/1000 - GetTime()
         ChatFrame1:AddMessage(spell .. ' will be finished casting in ' .. finish .. ' seconds.')
      elseif(endTime ~= TempData.endTime) then
         ChatFrame1:AddMessage("New end time of +"..(endTime - TempData.endTime))
      end      
      
      
   else
      TempData.endTime = -1;
      TempData.startTime = -1;
      ChatFrame1:AddMessage("No Spell!")
   end
end

add a macro that calls /script pbtest(); push it with no spell being cast, start casting a spell and hit it, then get an interruption event and hit it again. After the spell completes, hit it again to get the "No Spell" message and clear the two variables out.

Originally Posted by Enthorn

I'll tackle Zaldinar's first log. God that's confusing.

...

On top of that, look at the timing on the last tick of the 3806:

09:47'46.27 Ignite 3806
09:47'46.44 Ignite 3213

Why are those ignite damages ticking so close together?

Combat log timestamps are notorious for being lag dependent, I think there need to be three items taken in context there:

09:47:42.525] - Ignite Tick 3806, current bank [10532].
[09:47:46.267] - Ignite Tick 3806, current bank [12559.2].
[09:47:46.441] - Ignite Tick 3213, current bank [9346.2].

The second tick may have been lag-delayed as far as the timestamps go, it was expected at ~42.5 and didn't come in until 46. That doesn't necessarily mean that the server didn't handle them in the appropriate order and time frame, just that my client somehow didn't get that tick for an extra two seconds.

mightypirate · 10/05/10, 12:34 PM

Assuming a mage stacking intellect and nuking with fireball (opposed to a mastery-stacking frostfire-flinging mage), would it be worth it to cast FFB prior to Combustion, or leave FFB out of Combustion, assuming FFB is not glyphed?