Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release - Page 16

Tyrian · 10/05/10, 1:44 PM

Will try to update the OP with some suggested Fire builds in preparation for the next patch. Can people provide feedback on the following suggested builds:

Base PvE Build, 3 Luxory points: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

- Tier 1: Just 1/2 Improved Fire Blast taken to bring FB up to an acceptable 35 yard range and make Impact easier to use, and puts 2 into MoE and Burning Soul each. If you don't find Burning Soul to be useful, you could instead just put 2 into Moe, 1 Burning Soul and 2 Improved Fire Blast.
- Tier 2: Impact is unnecessary for many encounters, but would be incredibly useful for others. Players could justify just putting one point into this talent initially, then decide whether the second is necessary later.
- Tiers 3-7: Mostly self explanatory. Blazing Speed, Molten Shields and Cauterize are skipped as compulsary talents, though luxory points can be allocated for them later
- Subspecs: Pick up 3/3 Netherwind Presence and Piercing Ice

Luxory Points: Cauterize and Molten Shields could both be quite powerful in the right encounters. Recent testing stated Molten Shields can still proc Blazing speed even if no talents were put into the Blazing Speed talent. Is this still the case, or even intended? Fleshing out Impact or Burning Soul for fights with constant interrupts/adds could also be an option.

I'd propose these as strong contenders for filling in Luxory Points:

Burning Soul necessary, Utility unnecessary, 1 point free, 0 DPS Sacrifice: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Burning Soul unnecessary, Utility necessary: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft.
Maximum AOE, Utility and Minor DPS sacrificed: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

- The first picks up full Burning Soul by skimming a point from Improved Fire Blast and skipping Utility completely. One free point.
- The second Sacrifices one point from Netherwind Presence for utility, and assumes that Burning Soul isn't necessary. This assumes that Molten Shields can still proc Blazing Speed, even though no points were spent in it. Blazing Speed is hard to justify for PvE, though mages could drop Netherwind Presence completely to accomodate if they insisted.
- For maximum AOE: A few minor DPS points are skimmed and Fire utility talents skipped, to pickup Shatter and Improved Cone of Cold. If you insist on needing 3/3 Burning Soul, you could rearrange minor points quite easily (Swap one from Improved Fire Blast, and skim the other from Improved Scorch or Netherwind Presence)

hookgab · 10/05/10, 2:32 PM

Hello. Sorry to break the discussion, but I have started juggling some LUA today, as I haven't seen an addon which could help me track proper Combustion usage. It's still just a day's work and written with the help of the Ace3 framework, and I'll try to improve it in the future.

TODO:

- tracks dots with a two seconds latency(3 seconds for pyroblast/living bomb). The problem is that it waits for the dot to be logged into the combat log (its first tick) and then registers it.

- add individual trackers for each dot in the mage's arsenal.

- add Ace3 profile support for positioning/etc.

- add a more distinctive visual marker for tracking proper Combustion applications.

The addon can be downloaded from here.

If people find it useful, I'll continue developing it.

Vampir · 10/05/10, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Actually, doing some simple simulation on this would seem to support that if we can drop a glyph for the Fireball one, it is very much so worth it to change the priority list to be:

1) Critical mass maintenance (Via Scorch if required)
2) HS Pyro
3) LB Maintenance
4) FFB DoT stacking to 3 and refreshing if casting a Fireball would cause it to drop off
5) Fireball

Considering this is the first proposed priority list that I've seen and the proposal that Critical Mass and Fire Power be included talents, wouldn't we not want to add Flame Orb maintenance as #6? Or is Flame Orb really that underwhelming?

Sinless · 10/05/10, 11:37 PM

I think we should make something of a guide to highlight the important changes we should all look out for when the patch hits the live servers next week. Things and questions including but not limited to:

1) Best talent setup (like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft from Tyrian's post above)

2) Ideal rotation (like:

1) Critical mass maintenance (Via Scorch if required)
2) HS Pyro
3) LB Maintenance
4) FFB DoT stacking to 3 and refreshing if casting a Fireball would cause it to drop off
5) Fireball
from Zaldinar's post)

3) Glyphs to look out for, what will change, what will stay?

4) Will reforging matter? Do we want mastery stat more than crit/haste pre-85?

These are the ones that I could think of right now but if we can add something like this to the OP it would be amazing.

Deltrus · 10/06/10, 1:03 AM

Originally Posted by hookgab

Hello. Sorry to break the discussion, but I have started juggling some LUA today, as I haven't seen an addon which could help me track proper Combustion usage. It's still just a day's work and written with the help of the Ace3 framework, and I'll try to improve it in the future.

TODO:

- tracks dots with a two seconds latency(3 seconds for pyroblast/living bomb). The problem is that it waits for the dot to be logged into the combat log (its first tick) and then registers it.

- add individual trackers for each dot in the mage's arsenal.

- add Ace3 profile support for positioning/etc.

- add a more distinctive visual marker for tracking proper Combustion applications.

The addon can be downloaded from here.

If people find it useful, I'll continue developing it.

That addon looks amazing! It can be very hard to track how much ignite is ticking for; I can see myself missing huge amounts of dps without a warning like this notifying me of big ignite stacks. Not only this, but it makes tracking and testing out combustion damage a lot easier.

Zaldinar · 10/06/10, 1:57 AM

Originally Posted by Vampir

Considering this is the first proposed priority list that I've seen and the proposal that Critical Mass and Fire Power be included talents, wouldn't we not want to add Flame Orb maintenance as #6? Or is Flame Orb really that underwhelming?

Flame orb is freaking awesome. I haven't included it in priority systems because its use is pretty dependent on movement phases and periods of time where it can provide an increased gain. I would say its likely optimal use is after Critical Mass or other debuffs are applied and when trinkets are procced. It scales in ridiculous ways and is instacast. Its not underwhelming at all, anyone claiming it is simply isn't paying attention to how much freaking damage it does.

By the way, its freaking awesome.

And why wouldn't you include Critical Mass? You would be an idiot not to. 15% damage to LB and 15% damage to Flame Orb (Which was already awesome, and that just kicks it up to 11), plus the crit debuff. Unless you have an ISB Lock around you'll maintain it with Scorch or Pyroblast. With an ISB Lock around it will be juggled back and forth because of Pyro, but you won't have to worry about Scorch.

And Hookgab, on the addon. Nice, but the only really variable DoT you'll encounter is Ignite. Basic tracking of an ignite debuff damage is pretty easy. Follow the method of on crit add 40% of the damage (modified by mastery) to a bank variable. On tick remove that amount from the bank variable. Divide bank by remaining DoT duration (two for one tick passed, four for no ticks passed) and you have you approximate DPS for the DoT. That should serve at least as a pretty good indicator of ignites output. The rest of them even without a tick having happened you should be able to get 'close enough' by storing the last tick of that spell you saw on someone else at your current spell power level.

Good execution though.

angayelle · 10/06/10, 3:46 AM

About Combustion addon, i've continued the coding of the addon i've talked about in this post : http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t104767-...n/#post1742227

You can have a look there : CombustionHelper : Mage : WoWInterface Downloads

I scrapped the idea of a range check finally but there is still a indicator for sub 2 seconds dot, so you know wen it's safe or not to cast combustion at range.

angayelle · 10/06/10, 4:07 AM

Originally Posted by Deltrus

.. I can see myself missing huge amounts of dps without a warning like this notifying me of big ignite stacks.

Just to be sure, you are speaking of missing amount of dps because of lost Ignite stacks. This is only related to 4.0.1/Cata combustion use, right ? Because to my knowledge, in current wow, keeping ignite stacks rolling or not is not related in any way with dps. Each new ignite caused by criticals is added to the current ignite but will wear off after the 4 second duration even if the ignite dot stay on target (fueled by new crits).

Am i right or completely wrong ?

Zaldinar · 10/06/10, 4:12 AM

Originally Posted by angayelle

Just to be sure, you are speaking of missing amount of dps because of lost Ignite stacks. This is only related to 4.0.1/Cata combustion use, right ? Because to my knowledge, in current wow, keeping ignite stacks rolling or not is not related in any way with dps. Each new ignite caused by criticals is added to the current ignite but will wear off after the 4 second duration even if the ignite dot stay on target (fueled by new crits).

Am i right or completely wrong ?

Completely wrong. Missing the point essentially.

The bigger your current ignite stack, the bigger your combustion damage. You are right in a vacuum ignoring Combustion, but when dealing with combustion your goal is to use it at a peak of DoT damage on the target for maximum effect, thus relying on having a Pyro DoT, LB, and the biggest ignite stack you can manage.

Maje · 10/06/10, 4:33 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

...Luxory Points: Cauterize...

I would argue that no matter the encounter Cauterize is not a luxory, unless you can guarantee not dying (which can only happen in farm content where the whole discussion becomes somewhat moot).

To me Cauterize is probably one of the strongest talents in the fire tree it is not a straight dps increasing one but you can't really compare it to Improved Scorch which in a PvE setting is extremely weak at best nor to Improved Flamestrike. That said Improved Flamestrike is not bad but what makes it really shine is Blast Wave taking IF without it seems unsatisfying.

Also at level 85 if that was the topic, taking 2 points in Arc. Concentration and one or two points in Improved Blink is very strong as well, and probably more useful than Molten Shields.

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

...your goal is to use it at a peak of DoT damage on the target for maximum effect...

Although true, it clashes with the fact that it's still a CD and you wouldn't want to waste a cycle, meaning you'll need to know the length of the fight and the longest period of time you could potentially wait before wasting it.

Zaldinar · 10/06/10, 4:57 AM

Originally Posted by Maje

Although true, it clashes with the fact that it's still a CD and you wouldn't want to waste a cycle, meaning you'll need to know the length of the fight and the longest period of time you could potentially wait before wasting it.

"Optimal" isn't necessarily "Realistic". Are all three (four for FFB) DoTs up? is combustion available? Are you not under some sort of crit inducing cooldown that makes it likely that you will continue adding to an ignite stack? If so, use combustion.

angayelle · 10/06/10, 5:28 AM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Completely wrong. Missing the point essentially.

The bigger your current ignite stack, the bigger your combustion damage. You are right in a vacuum ignoring Combustion, but when dealing with combustion your goal is to use it at a peak of DoT damage on the target for maximum effect, thus relying on having a Pyro DoT, LB, and the biggest ignite stack you can manage.

Sorry but i think you have misread my post. Adding break line and bold.

Just to be sure, you are speaking of missing amount of dps because of lost Ignite stacks. This is only related to 4.0.1/Cata combustion use, right ?

Because to my knowledge, in current wow, keeping ignite stacks rolling or not is not related in any way with dps. Each new ignite caused by criticals is added to the current ignite but will wear off after the 4 second duration even if the ignite dot stay on target (fueled by new crits).

Zaldinar · 10/06/10, 5:56 AM

Oh, yes in that case. My apologies.

Tyrian · 10/06/10, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Maje

I would argue that no matter the encounter Cauterize is not a luxory, unless you can guarantee not dying (which can only happen in farm content where the whole discussion becomes somewhat moot).

To me Cauterize is probably one of the strongest talents in the fire tree it is not a straight dps increasing one but you can't really compare it to Improved Scorch which in a PvE setting is extremely weak at best nor to Improved Flamestrike. That said Improved Flamestrike is not bad but what makes it really shine is Blast Wave taking IF without it seems unsatisfying..

I agree with the Cauterize sentiment, especially for new progression content. I think this will be a standard build come Cata for progression minded PvE players:

Standard Progression Fire PvE Build

Notes: If Burning Soul is deemed essential, can swap one point from Improved Fire Blast and skim the other from any combination of Netherwind Presence, Impact or Improved Scorch. I'm trying to keep Fires major strength (Aoe power) for all spec variants, and avoid dropping Improved Flamestrike/Blastwave where possible. If people desire Molten Shields, it can be easily picked up for a minor loss via Netherwind Presence or Piercing Ice.

What are peoples thoughts on whether Improved Scorch should be considered essential? The term 'free scorch' is quite headline grabbing, but do we really need to spent any points in it? How often are we expecting Scorch to be cast? If people don't consider Improved Scorch to be necessary, we might start seeing raiding builds which pickup Improved Blink. Picking up Arcane Concentration on the way is also a great way to bolster mana efficiency. This spec has just 1 point in Blink, but you could get another by skimming 1 from Piercing Ice (1% crit loss), dropping Cauterize or dropping AOE focused talents (Improved Flamestrike) - according to your preferences.

Fire PvE Build with Improved Blink

mightypirate · 10/06/10, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Completely wrong. Missing the point essentially.

The bigger your current ignite stack, the bigger your combustion damage. You are right in a vacuum ignoring Combustion, but when dealing with combustion your goal is to use it at a peak of DoT damage on the target for maximum effect, thus relying on having a Pyro DoT, LB, and the biggest ignite stack you can manage.

Should you bother throwing a FFB in there before combustion even if you arent glyphed for it?