Elitist Jerks Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release

 10/13/10, 4:47 PM #346 Dacomp89 Glass Joe   Suin Human Mage   Ner'zhul Consuming the DOT does make Combustion weaker, but it's not a wash when consuming ignite. Ignite lasts for 4 seconds, but Combustion does equal dps over a much longer 10 seconds, essentially giving you 2.5x the damage of the ignite. You can also form another Ignite while Combustion is up. This is of course assuming the new 'reworded' tooltip works in the same DPS way as detailed in the OP and I am understanding it all correctly.
 10/13/10, 4:47 PM #347 Narub Glass Joe   Narub Undead Mage   Twisting Nether (EU) After doing some bosses in Icecrown Citadel I gotta say that fire is amazing. It's all about timing and general RNG aswell. As for Combustion for example, you're best bet as mentioned before is to spread it to as many targets as possible. For example on Saurfang you wait till the beasts spawn, combustion and using fireblast for impact, this will make you do an insane amount to the adds. Generally you can do it every time they spawn. I was unlucky enough to never get an impact during beasts but considering the 10% procc it should be up most of the time. This ofcourse can be used well on Bone Spikes from Marrowgar, Adds on Lady Deathwhisper. I went with pure fireball spamming aswell (the general keep LB up, fireball spam and use your hot streak proccs after casts). Seemed like comparing logs it is best to just do this aswell. I checked frostfirebolt on dummies and it does seem to just not be worth it using it over fireball currently as we have low mastery ratings. Even doing it 3 times for the dots seems to not be worth it at all. I hope this can clear some things up for people! Enjoy the new amazing fire specc
 10/13/10, 5:10 PM #348 lillbrorsan Glass Joe   Truljin Troll Mage   Darkmoon Faire (EU) I got my fancy new spec, glyphs, gems and tried it out on a dummy, it sure is fun. However i'm still a bit curious about Mastery for Fire, is it really worth Reforging your Crit/Haste into Mastery at level 80? Sorry if this has been covered before, i have not seen any answer as of yet.
 10/13/10, 5:40 PM #349 Sacrêd Glass Joe   Sacrêd Gnome Mage   Mal'Ganis (EU) We recently killed some bosses in ICC and I have to say - just as "Narub" - that the new fire spec is AMAZING. In my opinion, it is extremely fun to play and you can get insane damage by spreading your DoTs. You don't even need to do this with combustion, just focus any add and use impact when you got a nice ignite such as in a hot streak. Works perfectly for trash, marrowgar, deathwhisper and saurfang. Furthermore, it feels more... dynamic to play. I really enjoyed it. If you do it right, you will have a huge dps increase. However, it is really frustrating if you don't have any luck with imapct procs, e.g. at saurfang when adds spawn and you do not get any proc. nevertheless, you still do much damage while just spamming fireball and pyro when it procs.
 10/13/10, 5:54 PM #350 iampeebrain Glass Joe   Volwrath Undead Mage   Kil'Jaeden In regards to FFB. I tried the FFBx3 -> FB rotation for the first couple bosses of ICC and it felt very clunky. The dot is only 12 seconds, with ~2.2sec cast + travel time. Between that and the GCDs of LB and PB I almost never casted FB. Also if the stacks fall off (which they do a lot when switching to adds/bonespikes/etc) it takes 3 FFBs to get the dot back up to full, which in most cases was all the burn time allowed before needing to switch targets again. I then dropped FFB from the rotation and it felt much more consistent as far as dps. On a side note fire AoE is ridiculous!! I got up to 106k dps on the whelps before sindy in 10 man.
 10/13/10, 5:56 PM #351 Karolus Glass Joe   Karolus Human Mage   Firetree I dont know if it is how it is intended, but using recount ( maybe the add-on is bugged ) after doing many tests, i have found out that using a rotation including a ffb up ( once each 7 sec or so to keep the dot up ) is doing higher damage on a single target dummy. Any idea why is it the case compared to just spamming Fireball with FFB,FB,LB as major glyph and using hot streak each time it was up and also keeping living bomb up. On the pyromaniac talent, it still bugs sometimes on single target like my maiden run with the spec on H Utgarde keep. And as someone said, this is indeed a strange talent to be used just in very situational cases.
10/13/10, 7:03 PM   #352
jimme
Glass Joe

Troll Mage

Kazzak (EU)
 Originally Posted by angayelle On the same subject of Combustion (oh yes, i love this talent), i had an idea for a combustion addon but i'm way better at photoshop than Lua, so here is what i thought about. It show dots timers, both in bars and text style with a small light wether it's on or not (maybe the lights are useless). The hot streak icon would light up when buff is up with both text and clock timer. Travel time show up for information (i don't know if it can be calculated in some way by an addon). The color around hot streak icon would change depending if travel time > lowest dot duration, green for ok, red for bad. Tell me what you think and sorry if i should have posted it in the addons forum.
Did anything like this ever get made?

It could be quite usefull, not only for combustion but also for impact.

10/13/10, 7:17 PM   #353
Icecoil
Glass Joe

Aegwynn (EU)
 Originally Posted by Narub After doing some bosses in Icecrown Citadel I gotta say that fire is amazing. It's all about timing and general RNG aswell. As for Combustion for example, you're best bet as mentioned before is to spread it to as many targets as possible. For example on Saurfang you wait till the beasts spawn, combustion and using fireblast for impact, this will make you do an insane amount to the adds. Generally you can do it every time they spawn. I was unlucky enough to never get an impact during beasts but considering the 10% procc it should be up most of the time. This ofcourse can be used well on Bone Spikes from Marrowgar, Adds on Lady Deathwhisper. I went with pure fireball spamming aswell (the general keep LB up, fireball spam and use your hot streak proccs after casts). Seemed like comparing logs it is best to just do this aswell. I checked frostfirebolt on dummies and it does seem to just not be worth it using it over fireball currently as we have low mastery ratings. Even doing it 3 times for the dots seems to not be worth it at all. I hope this can clear some things up for people! Enjoy the new amazing fire specc
How much mastery was you going for?

I've been fiddling around a bit with finding a balance between haste crit and mastery, it seems like too much mastery gimps you a little too much (35% ish crit is really noticeable) - So was just curious what numbers you was able to put out and using what.

10/13/10, 7:23 PM   #354
Dankz
Von Kaiser

Caelestrasz
 Originally Posted by jimme Did anything like this ever get made? It could be quite usefull, not only for combustion but also for impact.

 10/13/10, 7:56 PM #355 Silverwind Von Kaiser     Silverwind Gnome Mage   Antonidas (EU) Some more thoughts on dots scaling with haste: It seems like the DPS of all dots and the dot portion of LB scale totally linear with haste. While faster/more ticks are always welcome for Pyroblast or FFB, more LB explosions could be more desirable for overall dps, especially in AoE fights. The shortest possible LB runtime is 10.71s at 12.49% haste while the highest is 13.33s at 12.5% haste (The sawtooth chart tightens at the higher breakpoints). The difference between those two points is 24,4% more Explosions. I *think* this outweights the benefits of the extra Pyro/FFB tick in single target fights with the current low mastery and high crit rates and should clearly win in AoE situations. The values for the second and third breakpoint are: 37.49% -> 10.91s vs. 37.5% -> 13.09s = 19,9% explosions 62.49% -> 11.08s vs. 62.5% -> 12.92s = 16,6% explosions
10/13/10, 8:12 PM   #356
Shaewyn
Piston Honda

Draenei Mage

Malygos
 Originally Posted by Zaldinar Shaewyn, how do these look integrated with Majes data? And stepping away from trend lines and regressions and into "lets make up a formula" land, how does a predicted T3 proc chance of (1.0 - (C / 0.5)) - 0.15 work with the combined data? Seems to predict mine pretty well, and represents an at least plausible range of proc chances. 85% at 0% crit chance, 0% at 42.5% crit rate.
Do you happen to have the character sheet crit values for these tests? That would help. That being said, the data you've got appears to line up nicely with Maje's data.

Seeing as how this is essentially a bunch of binomial distribution problems, I've calculated confidence intervals for each data point, and our linear formula lines up beautifully within a 95% confidence interval for all the data points except for one of Maje's data points (the one at (0.2281, 0.307)).

As for your formula, it seems to be pretty bang on, that is $y=-2c+0.85$

Last edited by Shaewyn : 10/13/10 at 10:05 PM. Reason: New data invalidated previous conclusion

 10/13/10, 8:41 PM #357 Tyrian Bald Bull     Tyrian Human Mage   Frostmourne The current mechanic of Living Bomb being able to refresh itself, but removing the original without an explosion in the process, is very frustrating. Accidently slipping of LB reapplication a split second too early now is not good. I'm using the Combustionhelper mod linked above, which is great, but still this design leaves a sour taste. This isn't news, it's been like this a while. But do people feel this is the intended (frustrating) mechanic? If Blizzard didn't want LB to be chain-refreshed to trigger successive explosions in the process, how about a mechanic that said something like "If Living Bomb is refreshed with less than 3 seconds left on the current one, the explosion will still still occur and your new LB will apply". But if you attempt to chain refresh, you won't get explosions. This would be a good middle ground.
10/13/10, 8:49 PM   #358
Kyth
Professional Windmill Tilter

Kythra
Orc Warlock

No WoW Account
I'm really enjoying a lot about the new fire mage, but LB isn't one of them for both that, Tyrian, and because of the "Pyromaniac requires dots on three targets but LB can only be up on three targets" aspect.

I've been going back and forth with myself, whether I'm just whining and wanting things perfect or not, but I don't think so. It just doesn't feel very elegant right now, either aspect, and it made the class feel slightly frustrating.

LB refreshed under 3 seconds causing an explosion is good (since right now it's heavily penalized for an early refresh, which is the opposite model of every other dot in the game), and either increasing LB to four targets or decreasing pyromaniac to dots on two targets would feel far better. (of the two problems, the early-refresh problem on LB is the bigger issue in my mind, just bringing up the other one because it also bugged me about living bomb last night.)

Another note from last night: some very very very long dryspells in terms of not getting hotstreaks. It was a taste of things to come at 85 and definitely induced a slight sense of forboding, since we rely on crit for ignites for combustion, for dots for pyromaniac, for stuff to spread with impact (since LB isn't effective as something to spread), and for our mana regen -- on top of "for the fun and variety of the spec."

4.x fire at level 80 is a blast and easily the best spec I've played in the game (has nothing to do with the damage output) -- I was actually giggling with glee several times last night during raid. I wish I was equally confident about things like fun and mana viability at 85.

(edit) speaking of DPS:

 Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler 2) We think mage dps is too high, especially Fire, and will be nerfing it.
Class balance as of Oct 13, 2010

Last edited by Kyth : 10/13/10 at 9:01 PM.

 10/13/10, 9:15 PM #359 Maje Don Flamenco   Maje Gnome Mage   Naxxramas (EU) Fire dps is too high compared to other specs, though I'm not sure how much of it is the fact that half the logs have Pyromaniac being bugged. On the other hand please fix Ignite.
10/13/10, 9:42 PM   #360
Tyrian
Bald Bull

Human Mage

Frostmourne
 4.x fire at level 80 is a blast
You could also say that Fire's pretty hot right now. Or Fire is the bomb.

But yes, it's important we're mindful of the state of the spec. Although there are some mechanics we'll refer to as 'frustrating' or 'counter-intutive', and hope are changed - the spec itself is in burning shape. Pun intended. I feel like i'm arguing over icing on the cake, in comparison to pressing issues other classes have. At a glance, the key issues i'd note with fire now are:

- Pyromaniac. It's a great talent which thematically fits Fire beautifully. But it's still a dangerous talent balance wise, very powerful when it's up. Could potentially cause problems in future.
- Living Bomb. Refreshing LB removing the current one without an explosion. Frustrating
- Living Bomb. Affects 3 targets. Some people would prefer the target cap to be increased slightly, but not too high to the point where Impact could make it ridiculously OP, as it was in Beta.
- Reliance on crit VS Expected Combat ratings at 85. As Kyth said, much of Fire comes back to crit. We'll need to be mindful of what changes this will bring as combat ratings are slashed. Even if said changes refer to intangible or subjective concepts such as 'fun factor'.
- Combustion. In the latest beta build, it appears to consume DOTs again, even though currently it doesn't. If they implement this, it'll be a step backwards because consuming DOTs caused a few issues.
- Mana Viability. We're not sure yet how fire will cope at lvl 85 mana wise, especially with MoE being less effective.
- Ignite. Still has some bugs.

So the best list of problems I can think of with Fire, comes down to just a few points. An a few of them are just points to be mindful of in future, not necessarily problems yet. It's a clear sign of design success on Blizzard's part.

Does anyone else have points they would like to add? I'm going to include a "Current and Potential Future Fire Concerns" list to edit into the OP soon, if we can garner consensus. This will include items that are current problem (LB refresh issues) and potential problems in future (Effect of reduced combat ratings on Fire at 85).

Cauterize: Last night, when playing around in Naxx, I pulled agro on Razuvious and took an unbalancing. Ignored Sapphiron Frost Bombs. Didn't bother to move from a void fissure on Kel'thuzad. No problems, just keep DPS'ing and giggle while everyone else complains at why Mages got this type of talent. Yes, it's only Naxx, but if you can find ways to aggressively use Cauterize in Cataclysm like this - you'll be laughing. One day in Cataclysm there might even be a "Creative Uses of Cauterize" thread, similar to the old Amplify/Dampen magic type ones. Optimal play for future encounters may involve using Cauterize like this.

Last edited by Tyrian : 10/13/10 at 9:57 PM.

 Elitist Jerks Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release