Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release - Page 38

Jackie · 10/26/10, 11:51 AM

This is going out on a limb and I am sure someone is going to shout "Shadowbolt!" or something similar, but without a prime or even major glyph for scorch, how can anyone claim that it is "meant" to be part of a standard rotation for fire mages? If for example it left a "Burnination!" debuff on the target that returned x% of the base cost of any fireballs that hit the target, it would be an open and shut case for what you had to do. Right now it's very unclear at best.

What is clear is that they cannot properly balance a spec that degrades much faster over time than any other spec if the "cut off point" falls within the normal allocated time to defeat a boss, that is the enrage timer and healer mana. Can you imagine how messed up it would be if or when guilds hit critical mass (pun intended) of fire mages that allowed them to take a boss fight down to 3.5 minutes or whatever the magic mark is?

mysteltainn · 10/26/10, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Enthorn

Am I to understand it correctly that completely ignored means that the ignite damage from a critical strike that lands when ignite has more than four seconds on it will be added to the next ignite tick and not the current one? I don't completely understand this.

It means that crit does not add any damage to ignite at all. For all intents and purposes, ignite has a 2s icd.

Also, is it haste that's extending ignite past four seconds?

Ignite still ticks every 2s regardless of haste. Haste doesn't affect ignite.

Ignite extends past four seconds because of the new DoT refresh mechanic. This mechanic is present on other player-cast DoTs like living bomb and corruption, and was implemented to make clipping the DoT impossible. For example, if, before 4.0.1, if you were to refresh living bomb right before it was about to tick, perhaps at 3.1s, living bomb would refresh to 12s, and would tick 3s later at 9s - the time between those two ticks was effectively 5.9s; after 4.0.1, the duration of living bomb would refresh to 12.1s, tick at 12s, and continue to tick as normal.

You can't clip DoTs, and DoTs will tick every tick period like clockwork as long as they are present. This also means that ignite won't climb to ludicrously high damage pools (assuming it gets fixed) unless the appropriate damage is done in the appropriate time. Critting more does not prevent ignite from ticking.

From your log, the first Living Bomb crit for 9873 plus the Fireball crit for 31890 is 41,763, multiplied by 0.5294 is 22,109 ignite damage. The first tick is for 1/3rd of that: 7369.77, leaving 14,739. The flame orb adds 2537 ignite damage, bringing the total to 17,276/3 = 5759 for the next ignite tick. So that's interesting, because it confirms that it's splitting the damage by three instead of two ticks. But how does it work for just one spell? If there's only one crit, does it split the ignite into two ticks (one at 2 seconds and the other at 4 seconds) still?

Yes.

Tyfon · 10/26/10, 1:44 PM

Does that mean that, hypothetically, if I were to spam living bomb on a single target, it would still tick every 3 seconds? At the very least this makes me less terrified of clipping my LB on single target fights (since the explosion is relatively weak now).

Maje · 10/26/10, 1:51 PM

See:
#1. http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t104767-...5/#post1750661
#2. http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t104767-...2/#post1764265

for more examples of Ignite misbehaving. The 3 ticks is a byproduct of the new dot refreshing mechanic (#1) as to what causes Ignite to sometimes skip a crit I'm not certain it's as simple as 2s icd, because there are a few cases where Ignite does get applied under that period.

mysteltainn · 10/26/10, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Tyfon

Does that mean that, hypothetically, if I were to spam living bomb on a single target, it would still tick every 3 seconds? At the very least this makes me less terrified of clipping my LB on single target fights (since the explosion is relatively weak now).

Yes. The ideal time to refresh should be between the last two ticks (when the duration is between 0s and 3s assuming 0 haste).

As a side note, it might be interesting to see if living bomb is even worth casting on a single target considering the DoT crits eat up ignite opportunities that might otherwise be a fireball crit or a pyroblast crit.

The 3 ticks is a byproduct of the new dot refreshing mechanic (#1) as to what causes Ignite to sometimes skip a crit I'm not certain it's as simple as 2s icd, because there are a few cases where Ignite does get applied under that period.

It's not quite a 2s icd in the way that all other icds work (in that dead-time in-between that icd counts for the next one as well; a 3s delta between two refreshes allows for a 1s delta between that and the next) but it was more a colloquial simplification of the concept.

It's very telling if you filter a log to show only ignite's ticks and refreshes. As from the log above:

log: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
query: sourceName="Lyrra" and targetName="Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test)" and spellId=12654

The dynamic is no faster than: refresh, tick, refresh, tick, refresh, tick. Ignite ticks every 2s regardless of haste - so for every 2s, only one spell may add to ignite.

If you look down in the log there are some exceptions, but they usually look like this

[22:00:47.863] Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test)'s Ignite is refreshed by Lyrra
[22:00:47.863] Patchwerk (PTR DPS Test)'s Ignite is refreshed by Lyrra

Which are simultaneous and (from what I'm lead to believe after 5 years of ignite munching) impossible to deal with.

And then some with .4s deltas that are, as above, probably the result of duplicate mobs.

Enthorn · 10/26/10, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by mysteltainn

As a side note, it might be interesting to see if living bomb is even worth casting on a single target considering the DoT crits eat up ignite opportunities that might otherwise be a fireball crit or a pyroblast crit.

It seems as if Blizzard is at least making an attempt though to rectify the ignite munching situation, by ensuring that ignite ticks every two seconds regardless -- this does has benefits, as it means a large rolling ignite is less likely to be munched, and instead a smaller one is munched. However, it seems that they've already taken the first step toward a solution, but haven't fully implemented it yet: when a spell crits and ignite damage is dealt, the game checks to see how much ignite damage should be caused and how much has been caused, and adjusts ignite damage accordingly. That way, even if ignite damage was munched, the next check would say, "Hey, we're missing some ignite damage, we need to roll that into the next few ticks." It'll be interesting to see what they come up with. It was one thing when ignite damage was only a 2% loss in total damage -- but now with ignite damage coming from so many different sources (living bomb DoT crits, pyroblast DoT crits, and so forth), they may be more inclined to address the issue.

Kyth · 10/26/10, 7:07 PM

Regarding the two second ignite ICD:

So, if one nuke (fireball or scorch) crits, does that mean if the next scorch crits (because it will always be in less than 2 seconds), the second scorch does not add to ignite? I wonder how much extra that penalizes us for having to use scorch at 85 (or perhaps, with living bomb ticks, we were already sufficiently in trouble anyways.)

It also weakens the value of instant-cast spells that can crit (hotstreak and fireblast), which I guess is why we're seeing it affecting things so heavily now (LB ticks critting and our crit rates high enough that we have a decent amount of hotstreak procs.)

mysteltainn · 10/26/10, 8:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kyth

Regarding the two second ignite ICD:

So, if one nuke (fireball or scorch) crits, does that mean if the next scorch crits (because it will always be in less than 2 seconds), the second scorch does not add to ignite?

Not necessarily, but I'd imagine it'd average out to about that.

As you said, the main culprit are critting DoT ticks and instants.

This whole mechanic looks like an oversight, and this bug just a result of a translation of all player-cast DoTs to a new system. Ignite itself is pretty unique and so has some pretty unique problems; I just hope it's actually fixed this time instead of balanced around.

Tyrian · 10/28/10, 10:38 AM

Regarding Pyromaniac.

Now that we've tested or seen most Cataclysm raid encounters, we can give a better answer to the question, "How useful is Pyromaniac?". I've tested most fights (but not all) and can pretty confidently say, Pyromaniac isn't really worth 2 points most of the time. All raid encounters so far fit into one of these categories:

1 - Pyromaniac is amazing
2 - Pyromaniac is absolutely useless
3 - Pyromaniac gets some use, but it's ultimately trivial and arguably not worth the 2 points

1: An example of Pyromaniac being excellent is Maloriak. This fight involves tanking multiple sets of adds for a lengthy amount of time, before AOE'ing them and repeating the process when new adds spawn. You can throw DOT's onto these adds for most of the fight and consequently have great Pyromaniac uptime. An example of a fight which could potentially make Pyromaniac strong is Al'akir phase 2, but whether this works will be strat dependant on how you handle stormlings.

2: Examples of Pyromaniac being literally useless are Atromedes, Twin Dragons and Ascendant Council. Only one or two active mobs are up, and you just can't get your Pyromaniac up.

3: Trivial or arguably not worth the points. A few fights fall into this category. Tron Council has adds which spawn where you can get Pyromaniac up... but the adds only have ~70k hp (on 10 man) and die within seconds. On Conclave, Anshal has adds, but these die relatively quick and if you're assigned to Rohash you'll never seen them anyway.

Most raid fights fall into the second or third category. This is not a surprise, people have been saying for months that Pyromaniac would be a problem talent. That it would alternate between being amazing and useless. Well no surprise: That's exactly what it's like on beta, but more often than not it's closer to the latter.

Mages can be forgiven for skipping the Pyromaniac talent from their 'standard' lvl 85 builds, except perhaps when you're working on the select bosses where it actually sees (compelling) use. A new candidate for 85 builds will thus be:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I took full Impact and Improved Fire Blast based on Zaldinar's recent comments on Fire Blast now being a strong part of the DPS rotation. If you don't like Cauterize, pop those 2 points into Arcane Concentration instead.

I've been meaning to make/update another post regarding Cataclysm Fire VS Live Fire. Now that i'm currently alternating raids between Beta and Live, i'm getting a pretty clear day + night contrast now. The easiest way to sum up the difference is: Cataclysm Fire has had the soul/fun sucked right out of it, when compared to the blast you're probably having with it on live (Pun intended). The myriad of reasons why, can be found scattered throughout this thread and in the OP (Severe mana problems, Lack of Hot Streaks, Master of Elements is now a toothless tiger, Combustion being a frustrating/awkward 2 minute cooldown, confusion over Mage vs Molten Armor use, confusion over Improved Scorch's role in the rotation). I'm a little concerned that many mages will be in for quite the rude shock when we all hit level 85 and raid with Fire.

My comments here are just trying to make it known to you, Fire on Beta does not play like Fire on live, it takes a turn for the worse. I love Combuston on Live, yet i'm currently despising it on Beta. I still like the Combustion concept: but it just doesn't work with Cataclysm combat ratings.

I left this for last because it's not a serious comment, but the most exciting use for Pyromaniac currently is to simply hope it bugs out so it's up 100% of the time.

Do we have any other beta mages here (experienced with playing Fire on both Beta and Live) that can confirm or dispute my aforementioned comments and sentiment?

Vand1 · 10/28/10, 12:02 PM

I also do not understand why Impact would not fall into the same categories at the same times as Pyromaniac, making it also not worth the 2 points (4 points if you consider Improved Fire Blast a companion talent). Given how much of an issue mana is on live, wouldn't it be better to max out Arcane Concentration?

Kyth · 10/28/10, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Mages can be forgiven for skipping the Pyromaniac talent from their 'standard' lvl 85 builds, except perhaps when you're working on the select bosses where it actually sees (compelling) use. A new candidate for 85 builds will thus be:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I took full Impact and Improved Fire Blast based on Zaldinar's recent comments on Fire Blast now being a strong part of the DPS rotation. If you don't like Cauterize, pop those 2 points into Arcane Concentration instead.

Is MoE really stronger than 2 points in arcane concentration at 85 for your build?

There's also the interesting twist with the data from Zaldinar's sims that I think he's only posted on the beta boards[1], that says mage armor is a small dps increase over molten at 85. If you're doing that, you probably can drop all mana management talents and firestarter also. .

Giving, e.g.:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Or move the extra point from imp cauterize to blink -- unfortunately it still takes 2/3 arcane concentration since there's nothing else to build towards if you're not taking pyromaniac. I kept 2/2 impact in on the assumption that resetting the fireblast cooldown is worth it for dps.

[1] "1000 iterations of each showed using Mage Armor + Pyro/LB/Fireball glyphs to be slightly better DPS than Molten + Molten/LB/Fireball glyphs."

Tyrian · 10/28/10, 1:28 PM

Is MoE really stronger than 2 points in arcane concentration at 85 for your build?

Now that you mention it, no I don't think it is. Will have to record some more Beta encounters as fire and pay more attention to just how much Master of Elements is returning. We all suspect the talent is in bad shape, potentially in need of a redesign, so maybe some more tangible numbers will really expose it.

As for the initial ruminations that using Mage Armor might actually be a DPS increase, it's just further strengthening the stance that Mana for mages is just (mechanically) way out of whack. With that in mind, builds like you said are on the table. I'd alter it slightly to be something that included Firestarter for encounters where heavy, extended periods of movement is a factor. Atromedes (air phase) is a good example. Maybe something like:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Interesting potential talent builds, but i'm genuinely bemused whether Blizzard is intending us to go down this path? When they take note that mages are exploring whether it's possible to use Mage Armor for DPS gains, ignoring Molten Armor completely (outside of periods where you potentially will want to use Firestarter with it) - and trying to ignore some key/iconic Mana efficiency talents completely in addition to sidelining 'fun optional talents'. Obviously it sounds like something isn't quite right.

What that sim doesn't mention is how using Mage Armor affects Fire mage playstyle. We already have low crit, resulting in less hot streaks, a reduced 'fun factor' (for lack of a better way to word it), and making Combustion awkward and frustrating to use. Taking out another 5% crit from not using Glyphed Molten Armor - is going to exacerbate all of that even more.

Kyth · 10/28/10, 7:00 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Now that you mention it, no I don't think it is. Will have to record some more Beta encounters as fire and pay more attention to just how much Master of Elements is returning. We all suspect the talent is in bad shape, potentially in need of a redesign, so maybe some more tangible numbers will really expose it.

This is the case in general for the entire tree though, so I'm not sure they'll address is.

The tree needs to be changed so, e.g., ignite is "20% of the damage of your nuke as a dot for 6 seconds" (which then gets doubled to 40% on a crit), and hotstreak is a, say, 30% percent-chance proc unreleated to crit, or ppm mechanic. If you make those changes, you now have the ability to at least use impact and combustion reasonably, while having crit still matter and product better results out of them.

Having a spec tied at the hip to ratings is just bad mojo in cataclysm, and I think (although I'm not certain) fire is the only spec so thoroughly dependent on ratings to achieve anything at all beyond spamming 1-2 spells in a predictable unchanging pattern.

What that sim doesn't mention is how using Mage Armor affects Fire mage playstyle. We already have low crit, resulting in less hot streaks, a reduced 'fun factor' (for lack of a better way to word it), and making Combustion awkward and frustrating to use. Taking out another 5% crit from not using Glyphed Molten Armor - is going to exacerbate all of that even more.

It's true, but I wonder if it actually matters, given how T3/T4 hotstreak interact. Sure, we'll lose ignites, but we're already getting too few of those for Combustion to be happy. The introduction of T3 hotstreak may make it largely a wash, at least for the first few raid tiers, since it will be boosting our hotstreak rate on its own already.

(edit) Actually a question, and I don't have the time this week to log into beta to see for myself so I'll just post: does adding fireblast to the rotation create some of the interest we need at 80? I mean, obviously combustion is still screwed, but the fact that fireblast doesn't have a reliable cooldown may replace some of the fun caused by hotstreak?

Tyrian · 10/29/10, 3:27 AM

so I'll just post: does adding fireblast to the rotation create some of the interest we need at 85

Interesting question, i've been playing around on Beta a little with this (and Zaldinar's comments) in mind. The promising answer is: Yes, it does make fire potentially much more fun for three main reasons:

1 - Fireblast has a short cooldown (8 seconds). We use it often.
2 - Impact can reset the Fire Blast cooldown with any spell cast. You'll need to dynamically react to unexpected Impact procs, much like Fingers of Frost.
3 - Via the Improved Fire Blast talent, Fire Blast has a +8% chance to crit. We all know how much Fire loves crit.

Currently i'm trying out the spec below:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I took Cauterize and Firestarter for the utility, some players might have opted for 3/3 Netherwind Presence instead. Pyromaniac was skipped for reasons outlined several posts ago.

The aim of this spec is to basically see whether I can trivialise mana as a resource (or how close I can come to it). Whether I can do my highest DPS rotation (including Fire Blast every chance I get) for extended periods: By using Mage Armor full time and ignoring conservative cycles (Improved Scorch) and Molten Armor completely. This brings up a problem with Fireblast, which ultimately boils down to Mage vs Molten Armor.

Fireblast costs 3657 mana.

With an 8 second cooldown and Impact resetting it often, Fire Blast is a big mana drain. Molten Armor specs obviously can't afford this, they're struggling to even do the normal Fireball+LB rotation. But from my limited testing on dummies and small groups so far (haven't been in a Beta raid today) Mage Armor specs look like they can handle the constant mana abuse from Fire Blast. I'm looking forward to trying this out in a Beta raid soon and reporting back. Another key question to answer is, with the above spec and rotation: Which combination of 3/3 Arcane Concentration, 2/2 Master of Elements and Glyph of Mage Armor is the bare minimum that's necessary to trivialise your mana? When we can answer that, we could potentially pull points from MoE/AC and put them back into the more situational things like Pyromaniac.

This leads me back to Molten Armor.

At this point, I think the inevitable best thing to do is actually change Molten Armor into a cooldown. Maybe even a Fire talent or iconic ability. Balance mages mana around near exclusive use of Mage Armor (or Ice Armor for PvP) and turn Molten Armor into a temporary cooldown, enhancing it's power and effect for the duration. Rebalance Normal Hotstreak around the -5% crit loss Fire Mages cop from using Mage Armor most of the time. Firestarter would also need to tie a mobile Scorch to something else as a result. What if we could use the redesigned Molten Armor to fix Combustion, by giving Molten Armor combustions old effect? (Increased +% crit chance for a duration/few spells - which will also help reduce the horribly awkward state of Combustion on beta currently). It will also help with the on demand burst problems PvP players have been commenting on lately - and in general just seems to be an easy way to kill many birds with one stone.

Doing this would help us embrace both our armors more readily, instead of being stuck in this confusing middle ground of one armor making our mana resource trivial, and the other providing a modest 5% crit and some utility - but bringing a disproportionately large headache when you opt to take advantage of it.

arch · 10/29/10, 5:46 AM

Two great posts Tyrian, keep it up.

I think it's safe to assume some buffs to longevity, based on Ghostcrawlers comments at Blizzcon. I guess I (and many more) am in for a huge surprise when I get to raid at 85 compared to 80. I've never had this much fun as a fire mage as I do on live currently.. that goes for both pve and pvp.

I realize some of it is because of crazy crits and such, but I'm logical enough to know things are in crazyland atm. But not ever seeing that pyroblast button light up at 85, and feeling that combustion is more of a burden than a dps cooldown, sounds awful to me.

I prefered the combustion version which guaranteed a combustion crit (the upfront damage) and was planned to count towards hot streak (but in practise never did). That version felt more like a bursty cooldown (great for pvp) and also a more reliable dps cooldown (Pve).

Crazy low critrates in Cataclysm will hurt the fun factor alot, but hopefully not enough to force me into another spec again.