Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release - Page 44

SpartAdept · 11/21/10, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by Anobix

Using recount you can see the number of casts/hits/crits of any spell casted during the fight. That or using World of Logs (assuming it works for it).

Was crossing my fingers for something a little more convenient, and less bulky. Using something like a fight timer (Dxe Pane) with a scorch counter, you could make general estimates on fight duration and meet your scorch "quota" and have the best opportunity to spam fireball under 35%. A lot less complex than it sounds, just something to reference to without having a recount box taking up half your screen to see how many you've cast.

Lerciolas · 11/22/10, 3:50 AM

Originally Posted by Naqaj

This test doesn't reflect how FFB would be used though, does it? FFB spam will never be a valid choice, no matter how much Mastery we have. The real question here is, at what amount of Mastery is it worth maintaining a FFB DOT stack while still spamming (unglyphed) Fireball?

Even if you let the dot run its full duration, the DPS it does is the same and even with mindless mastery gemming and enchanting seems really low to me, expecially compared to a 5% crit on the main nuke.

But if I have time today, I will do some math on this.

Naqaj · 11/22/10, 5:45 AM

Originally Posted by Lerciolas

Even if you let the dot run its full duration, the DPS it does is the same and even with mindless mastery gemming and enchanting seems really low to me, expecially compared to a 5% crit on the main nuke.

The question is: what did you compare the DOT DPS with?

Rest of my post /edited out for too much incoherent thoughts...

Some additional info needed on this topic: how is the DOT damage calculated for a FFB crit, and how is it calculated if refreshed/overwritten by a non-crit?

• Wizeowel · 11/22/10, 6:18 AM

Originally Posted by SpartAdept

Now to find a scorch counter to display how many have been cast during a fight. Does such a thing exist?

I think the addons you actually could use are TimeToDie - Addons - Curse and TimeToOom - Addons - Curse, as some of us did in 2.4 with arcane. It just becomes a matter of keeping the numbers even.

hackers · 11/22/10, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Wizeowel

I think the addons you actually could use are TimeToDie - Addons - Curse and TimeToOom - Addons - Curse, as some of us did in 2.4 with arcane. It just becomes a matter of keeping the numbers even.

That assumes however that every second within a fight is worth the same. You would probably prefer to conserve mana upfront to be able to use a high DPS/high MPS cycle through the execute phase.

Lerciolas · 11/22/10, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Naqaj

The question is: what did you compare the DOT DPS with?

Rest of my post /edited out for too much incoherent thoughts...

Some additional info needed on this topic: how is the DOT damage calculated for a FFB crit, and how is it calculated if refreshed/overwritten by a non-crit?

The post I replied to that time was talikng about FFB spam and how much mastery affects FFB dot, if I understand correctly.

FFB stack + unglyphed FB or glyphed FB spamming in my opinion isn't something that a simple test like that could solve as it's too dependent on other stats and procs.

• Wizeowel · 11/22/10, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by hackers

That assumes however that every second within a fight is worth the same. You would probably prefer to conserve mana upfront to be able to use a high DPS/high MPS cycle through the execute phase.

Yes of course, use the timers as a guideline. It's better than counting scorches.

Dejah-Thoris · 11/22/10, 6:01 PM

Originally Posted by Naqaj

This test doesn't reflect how FFB would be used though, does it? FFB spam will never be a valid choice, no matter how much Mastery we have. The real question here is, at what amount of Mastery is it worth maintaining a FFB DOT stack while still spamming (unglyphed) Fireball?

Why would we maintain FFB while spamming unglyphed Fireball? Glyphed FFB is the same damage as unglyphed Fireball. The only question would be is it worth it to glyph both FFB and Fireball, and spam Fireball while the FFB dot is fully stacked?

Lerciolas' FFB spam test has FFB at about 5000 dps and FFB dot at about 165 DPS. That's about 3%, but it should be 9% - 3% per stack, 3 stacks.

Lerciolas · 11/22/10, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by Dejah-Thoris

Why would we maintain FFB while spamming unglyphed Fireball? Glyphed FFB is the same damage as unglyphed Fireball. The only question would be is it worth it to glyph both FFB and Fireball, and spam Fireball while the FFB dot is fully stacked?

Lerciolas' FFB spam test had FFB at about 5000 dps and FFB dot at about 165 DPS. That's about 3%, but it should be 9% - 3% per stack, 3 stacks.

It's not like this because FFB glyph adds 3% of FFB damage, not DPS over 12 seconds. so each tick is around 0.75%*stack size of the nuke damage (before modifications from mastery)

Regarding glyphs I believe that there are better choices (pyro and molten armor) and that this a competition for the third place.

Tyrian · 11/30/10, 8:27 AM

Looking at: Simulationcraft Results

It uses this talent build: The World of Warcraft Armory

Sinking 2/2 points into Improved Fire Blast is unnecessary. The sim doesn't use Fire Blast in rotation at all, and 35 yard Impact range (with 1 point) is more than sufficient. What improvements could we see, if that 1 point was shuffled over to Arcane Concentration instead? Furthermore, you don't need Pyromaniac for almost all fights. You could easily manage a full 3/3 Arcane Concentration by skipping 2 points from Pyro. How much could picking up 1/3 or 3/3 Arcane Concentration alter the Scorch VS Fireball ratio?

Zaldinar · 11/30/10, 8:45 AM

Lhiveras Simulationcraft efforts are still in the development stages, as is Simulationcraft. The information is getting updated daily with improvements. I'll mention it to him to try out Fireblast or migrate the points.

Tyrian · 11/30/10, 8:51 AM

Thanks, i'd be interested to see the difference between the current build it uses now VS these two:

1/3 Arcane Concentration: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
3/3 Arcane Concentration: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

The difference is Pyromaniac: One build has it, the other doesn't. As many beta testers concluded, Pyromaniac can be considered too situational for inclusion in standard lvl 85 talent builds. The fights that see it get compelling use are few and far between. Whether any of the aforementioned makes any meaningful difference to the Scorch VS Fireball weaving ratio, should give a good insight as to how unnecessary / useful Arcane Concentration could be for Fire builds (that aren't explicitly speccing for max, albeit situational AOE power - like the current SimC version).

Zaldinar · 11/30/10, 9:03 AM

When the mechanics of Simulationcraft support it being truly measurable That will definitely be something to be checked out. They're working on making DoT spreading via Impact work cleanly and fixing up a few other kinks here and there. Those kinds of results will be available (or even user-isolatable) in the not excessively distant future.

Tyrian · 11/30/10, 9:20 AM

Maybe someone should make a dedicated Simultationcraft thread? Be nice to throw all the info in one spot.

I'm interested to know how Combustion is being handled by the sim. Is it making the (unrealistic) assumption that it will always be readily (and easily) used with a HS-Pyro, LB and/or ignite up? I say unrealistic because during heroism, and weakened boss phases, you just can't guarantee these will be up on demand. I'm not the best at reading all the output, but I noticed this:

combustion,if=dot.living_bomb.ticking&dot.ignite.ticking&dot.pyroblast_hs.ticking

I see Lhivera updated Fire to now include Combustion. It appears Combustion is being used under ideal circumstances. But what can options do players have for when the stars don't align so easily?

1 - Use a weak Combustion immediately (Just Living Bomb will be guaranteed). Can use this exactly on 2 minutes every time.
2 - Wait for a medium Combustion. (Living Bomb and any Ignite) Shouldn't have to wait too long for a single ignite / crit, maybe just 3-5 casts. Whether you wait for a Scorch or Fireball ignite is another factor to be mindful of.
3 - Wait for a strong combustion. (The conditions the sim uses: LB, Pyro dot, Ignite) Doing this will mean you will not be using Combustion every 2 minutes, as the wait time for these conditions to align is substantial - compared to the 2 minute cooldown.

If the sim is modelling Combustion using point (3) - but treating it as though it can be used as easily as point (1) - players will need to be mindful of how to interpret the results. Things just don't happen that way in practise at level 85.

This comes back to points Beta testers brought up extensively: Combustion at level 85 is a very frustrating, awkard 2 minute cooldown to manage and use. You'll be thrilled when the stars align for that good Combustion, but more often than not they won't, and especially not in the predice timeframe you need them to. (Close to the 2 min CD, during hero, during boss weakened phases etc).

Mcpepsi · 11/30/10, 9:31 AM

You can always hard cast a pyro to get the dot up as combustion comes off CD.

I'm not sure how viable that is with the heavy mana cost though.