Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release - Page 45

Tyrian · 11/30/10, 9:41 AM

Well it's something to consider at least. If Pyroblast (DOT) is 12 seconds, and Ignite is 4 seconds:

You could indeed attempt to hard-cast a 3.5 second Pyroblast ~7 seconds before Combustion comes off cooldown. After cast and travel time (lets allow 1 second), you're left with ~3 seconds before Combustion comes off cooldown. If that Pyroblast crits, use that Ignite immediately for Combustion as it comes off cooldown. Otherwise, you still have 12 seconds to get an ignite up somehow via Scorch or Fireball, whilst still taking advantage of the hard-precasted Pyroblast DOT.

The Combustion CD is only 2 minutes. But how long after that should players be prepared to wait - for more favourable conditions which would result in a stronger Combustion? At what point are you better off just using (a weak) Combustion anyway, in the interests of starting the 2 minute cooldown again?

Urgele · 11/30/10, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Sinking 2/2 points into Improved Fire Blast is unnecessary.

I think people may be underestimating the value of this talent; either that or I'm not seeing the picture clearly.

The value is the +8% crit. If a fireball or scorch crits, then it should be followed by a Fire Blast, assuming Fire Blast is off cooldown. This increases the chance for a Hot Streak by 8%, effectively fishing for them.

♦ nathanbp · 11/30/10, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by Urgele

I think people may be underestimating the value of this talent; either that or I'm not seeing the picture clearly.

The value is the +8% crit. If a fireball or scorch crits, then it should be followed by a Fire Blast, assuming Fire Blast is off cooldown. This increases the chance for a Hot Streak by 8%, effectively fishing for them.

You can't do this in practice because you're casting your next spell before you know if the previous spell crit or not (and interrupting a Fireball mid-cast to cast Fire Blast instead is a waste of cast time).

Dorrinal · 11/30/10, 10:49 AM

You may still be able to hit a Fire Blast after a Fireball crit through the magic of flight time. However it won't work with Scorch, and I don't think it's obvious that it's a dps upgrade over Fireball spam.

Mcpepsi · 11/30/10, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

The Combustion CD is only 2 minutes. But how long after that should players be prepared to wait - for more favourable conditions which would result in a stronger Combustion? At what point are you better off just using (a weak) Combustion anyway, in the interests of starting the 2 minute cooldown again?

Assuming you are able to impact it off to multiple mobs it would be worth holding it off for at least that many cooldowns.

For instance say that you use the first combustion at 10 seconds in and at some where between 2:10 and 4:10 a spawn of 3 adds come in that you can get combustion on (and spread) it would definitely be better to hold the combustion for the entire time as you would effectively have combustion X3 instead of combustion x2 in the same time frame, with 1 less global spent on the combustion and 1 more global spent on fireblast(plus the damage from fireblast) which would always be more damage.

In the scenario of just getting all 3 dots up you would need to work out how much dps each size of combustion is and then tie it in with how much dps is lost per second with holding it off.

Unfortunately my math blows chunks.

dedmonwakeen · 11/30/10, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Maybe someone should make a dedicated Simultationcraft thread? Be nice to throw all the info in one spot.

I'm interested to know how Combustion is being handled by the sim. Is it making the (unrealistic) assumption that it will always be readily (and easily) used with a HS-Pyro, LB and/or ignite up? I say unrealistic because during heroism, and weakened boss phases, you just can't guarantee these will be up on demand.

There is a main SimulationCraft Model Development thread, but that has been relatively inactive after WotLK mechanics smoothed out. There are also class-specific versions as well, but not very much traffic.

Regarding your specific question:
The action list is a priority list and the if= is a conditional that will prevent the action from being ready if the conditions are not met. This means that (as specified in the profile) Combustion is not being cast until we see all three DoTs active.

Unlike Rawr.Mage, SimC does evaluate a ton of unique cycles for you. It can only evaluate one "AI" decision-making per sim run. That decision-making can be very complicated at times, but you only get one. If you do not provide a priority list of conditional-limited actions, then the sim will analyze your talents/glyphs/gear and come up with one. If you would like to experiment, then you need to mess around with the actions in the profile.

Jawnzy · 11/30/10, 7:59 PM

Hey community, im a mage in US Thaurissan. long time reader first time poster in EJ formus.

Im just curious for all the builds as why waste two points into impact instead of one when the difference is very little, the extra point could be better utilised somewhere else.

The table is done by simple probability, of chance to proc impact when aoeing different pack size of mobs. AoE also meant a single tick of ignite, single damaging hit from blizzard.

Pack Size	1point	2points	Differences
3	14.3%	27.1%	12.8%
5	22.7%	41.0%	18.3%
10	40.2%	65.2%	25.0%

Also with 2/2 improved flamestrike, casting a blastwave is effectively doubling up the chance of impact. or you can just use a full channeling blizzard. instead of putting 2 points into impact, we can just use another gcd or two to proc impact. dont you guys think so?

Tyrian · 11/30/10, 9:52 PM

Use the "|" symbol to designate table cells. A good way to learn is: find any post with a table in it, and attempt to quote-reply to it. It will show you the code used to create said table in the reply box.

or you can just use a full channeling blizzard. instead of putting 2 points into impact, we can just use another gcd or two to proc impact. dont you guys think so?

Remember that mana, especially for AOE, is a huge factor at 85. Blizzard costs ~15 000 mana. Flamestrike about 5k. Blastwave is cheap, around ~1k. You'll always want to Blastwave where possible to AOE, given how cheap it is and to take advantage of the free Flamestrike. But using any additional GCD's for AOE, excluding Blastwave, is very expensive.

Jawnzy · 11/30/10, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Remember that mana, especially for AOE, is a huge factor at 85. Blizzard costs ~15 000 mana. Flamestrike about 5k. Blastwave is cheap, around ~1k. You'll always want to Blastwave where possible to AOE, given how cheap it is and to take advantage of the free Flamestrike. But using any additional GCD's for AOE, excluding Blastwave, is very expensive.

so do you mean you will still put 2 points into impact despite the minor difference in chance of proccing fireblast?
and yeah like I was saying, 1 point into impact is good enough.

as for aoe wise, i hope using mage armor suffice for a continous blizzard cast with blastwave everytime its cd its up. havent got the numbers but ill do it someday.

ps: thanks tyrian iv fixed my table

Queal · 12/01/10, 6:48 AM

Originally Posted by Jawnzy

so do you mean you will still put 2 points into impact despite the minor difference in chance of proccing fireblast?
and yeah like I was saying, 1 point into impact is good enough.

Why do you keep saying it's a minor difference? the talent itself shows double % chance with 2 points and your table shows more or less the same, although slightly less than double...
I often find myself lost for spells when I need that Impact proc right that instant and I have 2 points in Impact. Don't you hate spending some time trying to get that impact proc only to find that the mobs have been seperated already? Cuz Impact's range isn't too big either...

SpartAdept · 12/02/10, 4:04 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

1 - Use a weak Combustion immediately (Just Living Bomb will be guaranteed). Can use this exactly on 2 minutes every time.
c).

Each boss can be pre-cast on,

/prepot hard-cast pyroblast on the countdown
Mirror Image
>>Troll racial if possible<<
Living bomb
Combustion

This would be a much better option than just living bomb+combustion off the start.

cbags · 12/02/10, 11:18 AM

I would actually go something like this, as it would keep your threat levels low, while piling on dots, and some hopefully hard hitting spells.

Prepot
Mirror Images (GCD)
<<Troll Racial>>
Scorch (get Critical Mass up right away, and give the Pyro a better chance of a crit)
Hard cast Pyroblast
Living Bomb
Combustion

Vontre · 12/02/10, 11:51 AM

You really want an Ignite sized at Fireball or higher before you hit Combustion. Adding that to LB/Pyro dot will almost double your Combustion damage.

elluminea · 12/02/10, 4:24 PM

Not only do you want a big ignite and each of your dots, you want to activate it under as much haste conditions as possible to squeeze more ticks out. Coordinating the preemptive haste pot, black magic, 2pc t10, lust, hyperspeed accelerators, and berserking (where applicable) is extremely potent and usually possible a mere 5 to 10 seconds into the encounter. With the exception of black magic these are entirely under your control. I would never endorse settling for a weak combustion just because it's ready to use, given how immensely it varies in power.

Shaewyn · 12/02/10, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by elluminea

Not only do you want a big ignite and each of your dots, you want to activate it under as much haste conditions as possible to squeeze more ticks out. Coordinating the preemptive haste pot, black magic, 2pc t10, lust, hyperspeed accelerators, and berserking (where applicable) is extremely potent and usually possible a mere 5 to 10 seconds into the encounter. With the exception of black magic these are entirely under your control. I would never endorse settling for a weak combustion just because it's ready to use, given how immensely it varies in power.

This is extremely important. Even at 80, just using the haste cooldowns I have available (Speed pot, scale of fates, black magic, etc, but notable not heroism) I see a 70% increase in combustion ticks (10 ticks stock to 16 sticks under haste cooldowns).
A stock, no cooldown Combustion of a Living Bomb got me about 13k Combustion Damage over 12 ticks. Once I toss in ignite, living bomb, pyroblast and haste cooldowns, I got up to 61k damage over 17 ticks. This is well more than a 450% increase in Combustion damage when properly used.

In short, never use combustion with just Living Bomb. Always stack it with haste cooldowns, Ignite DoT and Pyroblast DoT.