Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release - Page 5

Zaldinar · 09/12/10, 4:19 PM

Something I just thought of, what if instead of a flat proc rate we're dealing with a scaling proc rate based on crit chance? I did my test with a premade 80 toon in T10 gear, if you were doing yours in a leveled toon with a different crit rate, that might explain the difference in observed procs. Or my grep string is bad.

Here is a link to my combat log on Google Docs.

Maje · 09/12/10, 5:36 PM

You mean inversely proportional to crit rate, that might be it, would make a lot of sense although it would also mean that crit scaling would be worse than it is now. I'll need to run a few tests with no gear, it might also be related to level only, I don't know.

My test were done with a level 83 mage, mostly T10h gear and some questing pieces, also at the time I think I was casting on one of the l70 dummies.

Bashram · 09/12/10, 11:36 PM

I get a feeling that the "normal" Hot Streak is going to turn out to have a proc rate of 33%. This appeals to my sense of logic.

aikiwoce · 09/13/10, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler, on the removal of pushback protection from Holy Paladins

We did. We just changed the base pushback resistance so that we didn't have to duplicate the same passive bonus in every tree.

Didn't see this mentioned anywhere else. So, can someone test to see if Burning Soul is actually doing anything?

Zaldinar · 09/13/10, 7:44 AM

Actually, crit scaling may support the idea of the proc rate being inversely related to your crit rate. Heres an example set of graphs from a simple simulator. Single cast procs are procs that come from the regular HS talent, Back-to-back improved are from Imp HS, overall counts the presence of procs after casting a spell (so both a single and a back to back are valued as one proc for this), and sum is the sum of the two proc counters.

The fourth graph used a junk guestimate of the idea of an inverse relation proc rate of:

Proc Rate = 0.25 + 0.25 * (1 - Crit Rate / 0.5)

I doubt any of the actual numbers are accurate, but it gives a sort of "junk ballpark" idea of what kind of relationship comes from such a formula. It ends up producing a result that is closer to linear than the flat proc rates as you increase your crit rate, which could well be the intent.

Some more testing at varying crit rates will definitely be needed. I'll see what I can do about securing some time to see if this is indeed the case.

Jackie · 09/13/10, 7:47 AM

Originally Posted by Bashram

I get a feeling that the "normal" Hot Streak is going to turn out to have a proc rate of 33%. This appeals to my sense of logic.

Have you considered that a flat proc rate makes hot streak scale with haste, making it even more powerful for the well geared mage than it is currently? This does not tally up with the intention to balance hot streak across gear levels. Yes, you could just take the mean value of two distinct observations or you could accept that they are so far apart that there is something else afoot here.

Bashram · 09/14/10, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Jackie

Have you considered that a flat proc rate makes hot streak scale with haste, making it even more powerful for the well geared mage than it is currently?

Actually, if Hot Streak were able to scale with haste, that would be very much in line with the goal of making stats more equally valuable. As it is now, crit is disproportionally valuable to Fire. While Fire mages still need haste in order to compete, crit is the statistic that actually makes Fire work. Given how ratings are set to plummet in Cataclysm, I would see it as a positive thing if Hot Streak were able to scale with both haste and crit.

Nevertheless, I was simply speculating that 33% was a good number. I didn't actually notice that it was the average of the two values until after I posted.

• ash2ash · 09/14/10, 1:43 PM

Has anybody been able to confirm whether or not the tier3 hotstreak talent resets the tier4 hotstreak counter? I'm planning to do some testing this evening unless somebody has already gone through the trouble.

I'd imagine if it did NOT reset the counter, it would be possible to get two auras applied at the same time off of a single spell crit. Either that or you could keep track of your crits and identify where the tier4 hotstreaks should have procced and see if it matches up with your combat log.

Logix · 09/14/10, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by ash2ash

Has anybody been able to confirm whether or not the tier3 hotstreak talent resets the tier4 hotstreak counter? I'm planning to do some testing this evening unless somebody has already gone through the trouble.

I'd imagine if it did NOT reset the counter, it would be possible to get two auras applied at the same time off of a single spell crit. Either that or you could keep track of your crits and identify where the tier4 hotstreaks should have procced and see if it matches up with your combat log.

There is no tier 3 and 4 hotstreaks, there is only tier 3. As in, there is only 1 hotstreak, which you get at tier 3.

The tier 4 talent just improves your hot streak (by adding a new condition to the proc). The spell is the same, which is why there is only 1 proc (and buff) you get.

To this effect, the same thing happens to the counter that happens today, i.e. it resets. Similar to how if you procced a Hotstreak on live when you already have the buff up.

• ash2ash · 09/14/10, 5:10 PM

I understand that the aura that each proc applies is the same, but beyond seeing a double application of the hot streak aura, I can't really think of a way to verify that it resets. It's a minor thing, but I wanted to get a positive confirmation before I tried to model the new hot streak behavior.

I just tested it on the PTR and I didn't see any double applications, so unless I see any funkiness with the statistics, I'll assume it resets the counter.

Thanks to Zaldinar, I found a segment of my logs that seems to prove that it does reset the counter:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Filters: Spell=scorch, source = lapsed; spellid = 48108, target = lapsed

[15:47:14.518] Lapsed Scorch Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 2935)
[15:47:15.680] Lapsed Scorch Expert's Training Dummy *1* (O: 6027)
[15:47:16.082] Lapsed's Hot Streak is refreshed by Lapsed
[15:47:16.913] Lapsed Scorch Expert's Training Dummy *1* (O: 6162)
[15:47:18.164] Lapsed Scorch Expert's Training Dummy 1 (O: 2952)

Bashram · 09/14/10, 8:19 PM

I was fiddling with numbers today and it looks like glyphed Frostfire Bolt is no longer going to be a part of Fire's rotation unless it is possible to get enough mastery to increase DoT damage by something like 85%.

Fireball Coefficient (0.9641) - Frostfire Bolt Coefficient (0.8132) = 0.1509

Frostfire Bolt DoT Coefficient = 0.8132 * 0.1 = 0.08132

0.1509 / 0.08132 = 1.85563

Quick and dirty math, but looks like we really are keeping the same rotation.

Zaldinar · 09/15/10, 3:21 AM

ash2ash,

To confirm what you are asking, you want to know if:

Scorch non-crit, Improved HS counter at 0
Scorch Crit, HS proc from the regular talent occurs, Improved HS counter at 1
Scorch Crit, HS proc from Improved HS

is the way it works vs

Scorch non-crit, Improved HS counter at 0
Scorch Crit, HS proc from the regular talent occurs, Improved HS still 0

Essentially, when you get a proc from an individual crit, will the next crit (if they're back to back) always produce another proc via Imp HS?

That's a very good question. When I get some game time again I'll add this with the scaling of regular HS.

Bashram,

Solve this and you should have the answer:

(FB_M + FB_R * D) < (FFB_M + FFB_R * D) * (1.0 + 0.1 * (1 + Q))

Where FB/FFB_M are the mean damage values at 85, _R are coefficients, D is the spell power level in question, and Q is the multiplicative term from mastery required to make FFB do more damage than Fireball. You need to relate the base damage as well because of the disparity between them (FFB has more of a gap to overcome)

Bashram · 09/15/10, 7:26 AM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

Bashram,

Solve this and you should have the answer:

(FB_M + FB_R * D) < (FFB_M + FFB_R * D) * (1.0 + 0.1 * (1 + Q))

Where FB/FFB_M are the mean damage values at 85, _R are coefficients, D is the spell power level in question, and Q is the multiplicative term from mastery required to make FFB do more damage than Fireball. You need to relate the base damage as well because of the disparity between them (FFB has more of a gap to overcome)

Testing with spellpower values between 3000 and 10000 confirmed that Frostfire Bolt does not become more valuable than Fireball until ridiculous levels of Mastery--the required Mastery value ranging from from 91% at 3000 spellpower to 87% at 10000 spellpower.

Maje · 09/15/10, 9:40 AM

Apparently there is a new glyph: Glyph of Living Bomb - Glyphs - Sigrie.

Dejah-Thoris · 09/15/10, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

ash2ash,

To confirm what you are asking, you want to know if:

Scorch non-crit, Improved HS counter at 0
Scorch Crit, HS proc from the regular talent occurs, Improved HS counter at 1
Scorch Crit, HS proc from Improved HS

is the way it works vs

Scorch non-crit, Improved HS counter at 0
Scorch Crit, HS proc from the regular talent occurs, Improved HS still 0

Essentially, when you get a proc from an individual crit, will the next crit (if they're back to back) always produce another proc via Imp HS?

That's a very good question. When I get some game time again I'll add this with the scaling of regular HS.

The problem with this is you won't know if you get

Scorch Crit, HS proc from the regular talent occurs, Improved HS counter at 1
Scorch Crit, HS proc from Improved HS

or

Scorch Crit, HS proc from the regular talent occurs, Improved HS still 0
Scorch Crit, HS proc from the regular talent occurs, Improved HS still 0

To test this you'd have to have enough sets of (scorch non crit + no proc, scorch crit + proc, scorch crit) to have enough data items to compare proc rates on the 3rd scorch with the observed proc rate on non-crits. At least determining the regular talent's proc rate should be fairly simple - don't take the improved talent and cast enough scorches to feel confident in your data.