Elitist Jerks Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release

 09/21/10, 2:00 PM #121 Maje Don Flamenco   Maje Gnome Mage   Naxxramas (EU) Well my only documentation was a test I did on the previous build, which involved spamming Scorch and not getting a case of -crit +crit +hs +crit -hs. But again disproving it is a lot easier, I'll double check next time I am on the ptr.
 09/21/10, 2:41 PM #122 Zaldinar Don Flamenco     Zaldinar Human Mage   Arygos 9/21 19:49:45.674 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,2763,2762,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil 9/21 19:49:46.035 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF 9/21 19:49:46.394 SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress" 9/21 19:49:46.894 SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,1736,1735,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil 9/21 19:49:46.895 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF 9/21 19:49:46.897 SPELL_CAST_START,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4 9/21 19:49:47.551 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,5786,5785,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil 9/21 19:49:47.732 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,48108,"Hot Streak",0x1,BUFF 9/21 19:49:47.733 SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress" 9/21 19:49:48.089 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF 9/21 19:49:48.091 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF 9/21 19:49:48.262 SPELL_CAST_START,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4 9/21 19:49:48.445 SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,29077,"Master of Elements",0x40,418,0 9/21 19:49:48.965 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,5698,5697,4,0,0,0,1,nil,nil 9/21 19:49:49.305 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,12654,"Ignite",0x4,DEBUFF 9/21 19:49:49.307 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF 9/21 19:49:49.493 SPELL_CAST_FAILED,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4,"Another action is in progress" 9/21 19:49:49.666 SPELL_CAST_START,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0x0000000000000000,nil,0x80000000,2948,"Scorch",0x4 9/21 19:49:49.667 SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,29077,"Master of Elements",0x40,418,0 9/21 19:49:49.846 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,22959,"Critical Mass",0x4,DEBUFF 9/21 19:49:50.023 SPELL_DAMAGE,0x010000000030C96D,"Zaldinyarr",0x511,0xF13013580000423E,"Theramore Combat Dummy",0x10a28,2948,"Scorch",0x4,2910,2909,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil Long and short of it: Non crit at 45.674 Crit at 47.661, Hot Streak refresh at 47.732 Crit at 48.965, no hot streak refresh Non-crit at 50.023 confirming we're not just waiting on it. Next HS proc is at 55.300 in the log following a lone crit. To truly model the game, we first must research it. http://zaldinar.wordpress.com/ Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.
09/21/10, 3:19 PM   #123
Roywyn
Bald Bull

Roywyn
Gnome Mage

No WoW Account (EU)
 Originally Posted by Zaldinar Build 12984 numbers on Level 85 Combustion with *no* mastery (not even trained). It lines up exactly as expected on the LB + Pyro grouping if we ignore the LB explosion (Not a bad assumption), at ~83% of expected for only LB (no kaboom, 66% with) or only Pyro. And 147% of expected for LB + Pyro + Ignite (no kaboom, 132% with).
83% is 5/6 = 10/12 = 10s/12s = Combustion_duration/original_DoT_duration. That certainly makes no sense whatsoever, but gives a possible explanation where these numbers might come from.

Pyro + Ignite + LB lines up to 1737, you see 1764. Not sure where your 147% calculation comes from. Actually, LB + Pyro should line up to 625, we see 755. So it's the other way around, we get 20% more. That would actually make sense, really. Longer DoTs have lower DPS, which would lower their Combustion value. Instead, Combustion takes that into account, calculating "damage over 10s or total duration, whichever is larger".

Let's rethink the last one with that: Pyro + LB = 755 (with 20% bonus). 1764 - 755 = 1009, this part must come from Ignite. I was thinking about Ignite getting split due to the Combustion crit and having ticked once, but the numbers won't align. (The Combustion crit is pretty close to half the Pyro crit.)

Another try: Pyro/3 + Ignite/2 + LB/3 = 174 + 1111 + 452 = 1737 = 101.55% = 1 + 1/60. The 1/5 bonus did make sense, but I don't see how you can come up with a 1/60 bonus from the 4s, 12s, 12s DoTs over 10s.

And just to make sure I got that right: Combustion causes not Ignite itself? And Combustion on a clear target does nothing besides its single crit?

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 09/21/10, 7:11 PM #124 arch Don Flamenco     Eriond Undead Mage   Al'Akir (EU) Ok, if there's any poor soul out there who haven't had the chance to try either beta or PTR, I can tell you that the current state of PvP fire is pretty sweet, for bg's at least. While I do fear that our survivability will be a bit better but still not good, it is safe to say the ways of dealing damage have expanded greatly along with the control. There's impact stuns, spreading dots everywhere, occasional burst with combustion, instant pyros from time to time, blast wave for ranged control.... It is alot more exciting than any other fire iteration I've seen. In the last few bg's I've come to notice the usefulness of shatter in a fire build. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft With this spec you have two ways of freezing enemies yourself, and when you do get to pull that combo off you will pack a punch similar to frost, since you're bound to get double crit with scorch+fireblast for example, plus the following hot streak procs. This mimics the frost burst and on some occasions exceeds it. And on the subject of frost, fire and frost mage will now have great synergy inbetween each other. I love deep freeze. So currently there's a healthy combination of RNG burst and controlled burst. Frankly, this has brought me to the point where i'm not sure if I care about fire being viable for arena or not. I want it to be, but as things are now it will be good for rated bg's at least. Unless things change radically at 85 with pvp gear. There's alot of fun having both impact and hot streak, since with free scorch as basically your auto attack you pretty much have something to throw out all the time. Either you can interrupt or control someone with impact stuns or you can throw a hot streak whichever direction you'd like. Last edited by arch : 09/21/10 at 7:25 PM. Guardian of Fire PvP since 2005!
09/21/10, 9:13 PM   #125
Tyrian
Bald Bull

Human Mage

Frostmourne
 World of Warcraft: Cataclysm Beta - (English) Forums -> Cataclysm's Frost Fire mages The intent is that for fire mages that emphasize the mastery stat, frostfire bolt with glyph becomes a better option than fireball with glyph (and yes it's a temporary aberration that scorch is better than fireball).
The Scorch comment was expected by everyone, but this might be the first confirmation regarding FFB's place in the Fire Rotation? Does his comment mean that FFB is intended to be the primary nuke for all Fire mages? Or is it cast every 9 seconds (1 in every 3-4 fireballs) to keep the DOT up?

Last edited by Tyrian : 09/21/10 at 10:08 PM.

 09/21/10, 9:18 PM #126 Gort Don Flamenco   Gorticus Blood Elf Death Knight   Hyjal Ninjaed by mere minutes. Last edited by Gort : 09/21/10 at 9:19 PM. Reason: Too slow!
 09/21/10, 9:19 PM #127 Bashram Von Kaiser     Bashram Human Mage   Bleeding Hollow Damn, beaten to the punch on the Kalgan quote. So, what of mages who want to play non-Frostfire Fire? I seriously hope that Fire mages aren't all expected to switch to Frostfire Bolt at higher raiding tiers. I much prefer casting Fireball. I hope that it will be possible to achieve the same level of performance with a Fireball spec by emphasizing different statistics. If not, I will feel sorely cheated. One potential problem is that skimping on mastery would mean that a "pure" Fire mage would do less damage with Living Bomb, Ignite, and the Pyroblast DoT. The notion that Fire mages might eventually scale past the iconic Fire spell does not sit well with me. Last edited by Bashram : 09/21/10 at 9:28 PM.
09/21/10, 9:21 PM   #128
Tyrian
Bald Bull

Human Mage

Frostmourne
 So, what of mages who want to play non-Frostfire Fire?
Well Glyph of Frostfire - Spell - World of Warcraft removes the snare completely for that extra +10% damage DOT. I'd guess their intention is PVP'ers will keep Fireball as the Nuke, saving FFB for its snare utility. And raiders will use Glyphed FFB as either the primary fire nuke, or a filler nuke between Fireballs to ensure the DOT is kept up.

I'm sure opinions regarding FFB being a strong part of the Fire rotation will be divided. But it was common sentiment that something needed to be added to Fire's single target rotation, which was deemed 'too similar to WOTLK' and 'boring' by many.

Last edited by Tyrian : 09/21/10 at 10:21 PM.

09/21/10, 9:46 PM   #129
Gort
Don Flamenco

Blood Elf Death Knight

Hyjal
 Originally Posted by Tyrian Well Glyph of Frostfire - Spell - World of Warcraft removes the snare completely for that extra +10% damage DOT. I'd guess their intention is PVP'ers will keep Fireball as the Nuke, saving FFB for its snare utility. And raiders will use FFB (leveraged via Flashburn) as the primary nuke, as they don't need the snare? I'm sure opinions regarding FFB being cast as the primary Fire nuke will be heavily divided. Like many others though, I love the look / sound of the spell. Looking forward to it! A minor cosmetic glyph altering the colour of FFB would also be an option. It's also interesting to note the extent that Kalgan plays, with regards to his prominent role on the Mage beta forums: http://www.worldofraids.com/wow-blue...er/Kalgan.html
I don't think FFB is intended to be "the fire nuke". Simply that if one is gearing mastery vs crit/haste/whatever, one would switch to that.

It seems likely that the intent is that one could either gear for mastery, get relatively fewer HS procs, and use FFB or gear crit, have slightly more HS procs, and use Fireball as your nuke. Slightly more interesting than "Here's your fire set, have a nice day."

09/21/10, 9:54 PM   #130
Bashram
Von Kaiser

Human Mage

Bleeding Hollow
 Originally Posted by Gort I don't think FFB is intended to be "the fire nuke". Simply that if one is gearing mastery vs crit/haste/whatever, one would switch to that. It seems likely that the intent is that one could either gear for mastery, get relatively fewer HS procs, and use FFB or gear crit, have slightly more HS procs, and use Fireball as your nuke. Slightly more interesting than "Here's your fire set, have a nice day."
If they tuned this properly, I could get behind that idea. Frostfire would have more damage on Living Bomb, Ignite, and the Pyroblast DoT and a good part of Frostfire Bolt's damage would be tied up in its DoT. Fireball would have more crit, haste, and intellect, so it would have nukes that hit harder and crit more often. Having the choice between two playstyles is an interesting idea. However, this will only work if Frostfire requires a ridiculous amount of mastery. Fireball has to have a noticeable lead in crit, haste, and intellect in order to make up for Frostfire's damage advantage on non-Frostfire DoTs.

09/21/10, 9:59 PM   #131
elluminea
Von Kaiser

Troll Mage

Lightbringer
FFB can't scale past fireball as our main nuke, but the DOT might be worth glyphing instead of fireball's 5% crit. Don't worry about them leaving fireball out.

 And just to make sure I got that right: Combustion causes not Ignite itself? And Combustion on a clear target does nothing besides its single crit?
Actually combustion does cause Ignite from its own crit, and on a clear target produces an error message, and will not be used.

Quick combat logs:

Scorch 8108 (crit)
Ignite 1961
Combustion 7535 (crit)
Ignite 1960
Combustion tick 1665 (crit)
tick 810
Ignite 1822
tick 1665 (crit)
etc.

So apparently we might be able to abuse latency to receive the full ticks of a DOT while also activating Combustion. Combustion puts up its own ignite, which is not rolled into its own periodic damage. 811 is exactly the rate that the scorch ignite would be ticking (yeah I left out the 1 overkill damage on all the above) before Flashburn kicks it up 21% in the gear I was casting with. Combustion tick crits do not add to Ignite damage like some of our other DOTs.

Living Bomb 2216
Combustion 7764 (crit)
Combustion tick 708
tick 708
Ignite 1877
tick 1456 (crit
etc.

Pyroblast 20499 (crit)
Ignite 4958
Pyro dot 991
Ignite 4958
Combustion 9304 (crit)
Combustion tick 317
tick 317
Ignite 2250
tick 316
etc.

Did not try to reproduce latency trick like the first example, that was just a happy accident. The combustion ticking is a little low (~4%) for what is expected of both the Pyroblast and living bomb DOTs, but not so low that it is simply ignoring mastery like from Ignite. Could mastery have a coefficient for our spells that are both front or back loaded with direct damage?

 09/21/10, 10:31 PM #132 Frah Von Kaiser   Frah Human Mage   Frostmane (EU) I checked fireballs chance of proccing non-improved hot streak and it seems the chance is the same 70~% to proc. I then decided to check on how improved hot streak is doing. 15% crit from gear 5% debuff on mob gave 22.7% crit chance 501 crits 56% chance to proc hot streak on crit So at the moment improved hot streak actually gives you a reduced chance to gain hot streak. There is still counter resets in the combat log. Can see if there is anything interesting anyone can pick up from this log. World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis I just found out something really weird. Flame orb explosion from talent explodes at you not where the orb is at the end of the duration. I am guessing this is a bug and not intended. Curtain of frost (I know its technicaly frost spell but I dont read the frost thread much) now acts like a void zone so anything in in it takes constant damage. Spell is pretty cool now. Last edited by Frah : 09/21/10 at 10:59 PM.
09/22/10, 12:03 AM   #133
Logix
Piston Honda

Tichondrius
 Originally Posted by Gort It seems likely that the intent is that one could either gear for mastery, get relatively fewer HS procs, and use FFB or gear crit, have slightly more HS procs, and use Fireball as your nuke. Slightly more interesting than "Here's your fire set, have a nice day."
Exactly.

The success or failure of Blizzard's model with Frostfire bolt hinges on the availability of varied enough gear so as to allow us to make the decision between "should I gear mastery" or "should I gear crit".

The issue I see perhaps occuring, is that unless they decide to, say, make 2 versions of tier gear (mastery heavy and crit/haste/whatever heavy), we will most probably be left with attempting to 'turn into a frostfire mage' through offset pieces. I don't know how this will turn out, since it basically adds another headache of trying to figure out "should I fore-go tier gear so I can be a frostfire mage? Is the loss of the set bonuses worth it?" (I'm assuming tier gear will support the standard "fireballing" mage, due to the set bonus).

That being said, I think the model itself is somewhat new, since, it is the first time (to my knowledge) that a primary nuke of a spec can be totally replaced with another, purely through gearing choices. From memory, I do not remember any precedence of this happening before.

09/22/10, 12:23 AM   #134
Gort
Don Flamenco

Blood Elf Death Knight

Hyjal
 Originally Posted by Logix Exactly. The success or failure of Blizzard's model with Frostfire bolt hinges on the availability of varied enough gear so as to allow us to make the decision between "should I gear mastery" or "should I gear crit". The issue I see perhaps occuring, is that unless they decide to, say, make 2 versions of tier gear (mastery heavy and crit/haste/whatever heavy), we will most probably be left with attempting to 'turn into a frostfire mage' through offset pieces. I don't know how this will turn out, since it basically adds another headache of trying to figure out "should I fore-go tier gear so I can be a frostfire mage? Is the loss of the set bonuses worth it?" (I'm assuming tier gear will support the standard "fireballing" mage, due to the set bonus). That being said, I think the model itself is somewhat new, since, it is the first time (to my knowledge) that a primary nuke of a spec can be totally replaced with another, purely through gearing choices. From memory, I do not remember any precedence of this happening before.
I suspect the tier pieces will be itemised in their usual "not necessarily best" fashion, and use of offset/crafteds will swing it one way or the other. The 4pc would be equally good for either FFB or FB, while the 2pc would simply be BETTER for a pure FB spec, not unusable for FFB. If tier pieces remain available via badges, with a few offset alternatives for the same slots with different stat allocation (as we have now), with a piece here and there heavy on the crit/mastery, it's doable. ICC loot is almost distributed similarly, except we all want the same thing, bar a varying amount of hit per tree. Adding another stat to itemise other than "thing we cap on" gives some flexibility. If tanks can gear avoidance/threat/EH, it's doable for mages.

09/22/10, 6:10 AM   #135
Elimbras
Don Flamenco

Dwarf Priest

Eitrigg (EU)
 Originally Posted by Maje Those equations are also not valid simply because at the moment T3 Hot Streak doesn't reset T4 procs (and they assume it does), so if you get a T3 HS from one crit the next crit will proc the T4 one.
In fact, the models were done when Pyroblast could not proc T4 HS. Hence, after a T3 HS, one would cast Pyroblast and reset the stacks.

Now, assuming that HS can proc of FB and Pyro, and that the counter is not decreased, we have (removing the intersection of both procs, in order not to count the event twice) :

$P= P(\text{T3 HS}) + P(\text{T4 HS}) - P(\text{T3 and T4 HS}) = k*c + c^2 - k*c^2$

Note that it is possible to reach 100% Pyroblast, if your crit rate is 100%. HS proccing out of Pyroblast allows this

 Elitist Jerks Fire Cataclysm Discussion: OP Updated for Release