Frost Cataclysm Discussion [4.0 thread] - Page 10

Adyssa · 10/19/10, 10:45 AM

For the pet macro, the second macro doesn't have to be bad for target switching. Just put [@pettarget] in it.

#showtooltip
/cast Frostbolt
/cast [@pettarget] Waterbolt

That will cast the waterbolt at the pet's target no matter what you are shooting your Frostbolt at. To increase target switching efficiency, you could probably even add more to the bottom such that, if the pet has no target, it starts attacking your target. I think the following will do that.

#showtooltip
/cast Frostbolt
/cast [@pettarget, exists] Waterbolt
/petattack [@pettarget, noexists]

I'm not totally sure about the syntax here. The last line bugs me because I want it to attack my selected target if the pet has no target, but it feels like what I wrote is telling it to attack a nonexistent target. So if that doesn't work, try...

#showtooltip
/cast Frostbolt
/cast [@pettarget, exists] Waterbolt
/stopmacro [@pettarget, exists]
/petattack

Personally though, after playing a Hunter for years, I have a button for telling my pet what to attack. Sometimes you want to call your pet back or have it stop attacking but still be able to attack on your own, but if your pet is macro'd into all your shots, you can't do that. One example that I can think of is during Sartharion's trash there is that debuff that makes your attacks heal the target. Often times this would be on my pet but not on me.

Another example would be if you are shooting a target that you have LOS on but your pet does not. The pet will move forward and around a corner to get LOS, which can often be a bad idea. You can now use the Move To command to get your pet in LOS before telling it to attack, such that it doesn't move forward, but if you have /petattack macro'd into your shots, it will overwrite the Move To command.

Also, I don't see any reason not to add /cast [@pettarget] Waterbolt to every ability.

Yerr · 10/19/10, 12:44 PM

@Zeldyrr

The way I would go about combining the two macros you listed would be:

#showtooltip
/cast Frostbolt
/stopmacro [nopet]
/cast [mod:shift] Waterbolt; [@pettarget, exists, nodead] Waterbolt; Waterbolt

The macro does the following:
1) Casts frostbolt (obviously).
2) Stops itself if you do not have a pet out - to avoid getting error messages
3) If the shift key is held down your pet switches immediately to your current target, otherwise it has your pet attack its current target until dead, then it switches to your current target.

MalaclypseTY · 10/19/10, 1:19 PM

Originally Posted by Lhivera

Some rough estimates here -- my sim can't handle gems or enchants yet, but otherwise it's using mostly iLevel 359 gear for this. Time to OOM as Frost, using Mana Gems when mana deficit reaches or exceeds 32000 and using Evocation when mana deficit reaches or exceeds 62%. Switching from BF-FFB on FOF only to BF-FFB on BF proc provides a very small improvement (on the order of around 10 seconds).

Always assuming 2/2 Master of Elements, 870 Combat Regen, and regen from pally or mana tide.

3/3 Enduring Winter: ~8.5 minutes
2/3 Enduring Winter: ~7 minutes
1/3 Enduring Winter: ~6 minutes

That's assuming absolutely non-stop casting.

Curious if you can easily run the same simulation, but w/o evocation. I would like to know how long we could go with 100% dps uptime.

Also is that sim using hasted evo at the end of Veins, or just whenever it hits < 62%?

Adyssa · 10/19/10, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Yerr

@Zeldyrr

The way I would go about combining the two macros you listed would be:

#showtooltip
/cast Frostbolt
/stopmacro [nopet]
/cast [mod:shift] Waterbolt; [@pettarget, exists, nodead] Waterbolt; Waterbolt

The macro does the following:
1) Casts frostbolt (obviously).
2) Stops itself if you do not have a pet out - to avoid getting error messages
3) If the shift key is held down your pet switches immediately to your current target, otherwise it has your pet attack its current target until dead, then it switches to your current target.

I do not believe this will work as you intend it to. Telling the Water Elemental to use Waterbolt does not tell it to attack the target. It will just cast Waterbolt the one time. It might make it start attacking the target if it is currently idle, but if it already has a target, it won't make it switch.

Lucronax · 10/19/10, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Adyssa

The only time you could waste a charge is when there are multiple targets and the chill effect spreads via Piercing Chill, giving multiple procs when you only have space for one.

Right, that's exactly what I mean. The talent doesn't give a range and I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread, but I know for sure it hits on the training dummies in Undercity and on ghouls, valks, etc. in H LK, because I've casted 3 IL's in a row. Would the talent have the same range as warrior cleaves and the like?

Adyssa · 10/19/10, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by Lucronax

Right, that's exactly what I mean. The talent doesn't give a range and I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread, but I know for sure it hits on the training dummies in Undercity and on ghouls, valks, etc. in H LK, because I've casted 3 IL's in a row. Would the talent have the same range as warrior cleaves and the like?

I'm not sure how to figure out the range outside of just eyeballing it in game, but yeah, warrior cleave range seems about right.

Edit: Lhivera pointed out that the below was fixed, so I must have misinterpreted my playing experience. My bad.

Another thing about piercing chill that was noted somewhere (might have been in the generic mage cataclysm thread before there was a frost thread) is that the chill effects from the cleave occur on the cast, when the spell leaves your hands, and the chill effect from the frost bolt hitting your target happens when the spell lands.

[deleted stuff]

Lucai · 10/19/10, 5:30 PM

Originally Posted by Adyssa

I do not believe this will work as you intend it to. Telling the Water Elemental to use Waterbolt does not tell it to attack the target. It will just cast Waterbolt the one time. It might make it start attacking the target if it is currently idle, but if it already has a target, it won't make it switch.

His macro does indeed work the way he thinks it does but I'd use the following (smaller) macro which achieves almost the same thing.

#showtooltip
/cast frostbolt
/cast [mod] [@pettarget,exists] [] waterbolt

and if you remove the [] tag from right before waterbolt it will change it so it will not start attacking a target unless you expressly tell it to with any modifier key.

*Note: Using a modifier key to change target will only work when the elemental if finishing his cast.
*Note2:Starting a new one so it would be best to spam the macro with a modifier key held down until the elemental has changed target.

Lhivera · 10/19/10, 7:41 PM

Originally Posted by Adyssa

Another thing about piercing chill that was noted somewhere (might have been in the generic mage cataclysm thread before there was a frost thread) is that the chill effects from the cleave occur on the cast, when the spell leaves your hands, and the chill effect from the frost bolt hitting your target happens when the spell lands.

That was fixed a few patches back. As of my most recent testing (last patch), PC procs on impact, only on crits, and all three chill applications have a chance to proc Fingers of Frost (but not Brain Freeze).

Yerr · 10/19/10, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by Lucai

His macro does indeed work the way he thinks it does but I'd use the following (smaller) macro which achieves almost the same thing.

#showtooltip
/cast frostbolt
/cast [mod] [@pettarget,exists] [] waterbolt

and if you remove the [] tag from right before waterbolt it will change it so it will not start attacking a target unless you expressly tell it to with any modifier key.

*Note: Using a modifier key to change target will only work when the elemental if finishing his cast.
*Note2:Starting a new one so it would be best to spam the macro with a modifier key held down until the elemental has changed target.

Actually, after testing on some targeting dummies Adyssa is correct in that the elemental will only cast one waterbolt using the macro I listed previously. Obviously spamming the macro will result in more waterbolt casts, though I wouldn't count on it in practice given the amount of procs frost has to deal with. Given that I'm not sure if there's a penalty associated with repeatedly telling your pet to attack the same target here's a macro that will not only cast waterbolt, but get the elemental to continue attacking the given target unless shift is held down, or the target is dead/doesn't exist. And thanks for the macro shorthand refresher Lucai, it's been a while since I wrote one.

#tooltip
/cast Frostbolt
/stopmacro [nopet]
/cast [mod:shift] [@pettarget,exists,nodead] [] Waterbolt
/petattack [mod:shift]
/stopmacro [@pettarget, exists, nodead]
/petattack

Incoherent · 10/20/10, 7:03 AM

Is Early Frost really that bad?

I have a hard time getting my head around the idea that, for a given DPS without it, doing the same amount of damage but in (at least) 4.7% less time with it, is not significant.

Is it only the Haste GCD cap? As I see it, you will hit 1.7 seconds when using Icy Veins or Timewarp with any Haste level so it's value diminishes. But under 18% base haste you will benefit fully outside of these times.

In a worst case scenario for the Talent, being a 3:10 fight where you fit in exactly 3 Icy veins, two of them Timewarped, you have 130 seconds where you will benefit fully with under ~18% basic haste, 20 seconds where you don't benefit quite as much and 40 seconds where it is negligible.

For the sake of argument, say that you get zero benefit during Time warp and IV. Early Frost occurs every 15 seconds. In 3 minutes 10 seconds it will occur a maximum of 12 times. We lose 4 or 5 to IV/TW for 7 or 8 occurances. A "time spent casting other spells" gain of 4.9 or 5.6 seconds. This is a pure DPS gain of 2.6% worst case.

(I am not counting a situation where you only use IV outside of Timewarp. Perhaps I should? Surely that is a DPS loss?)

I see it converging to a >4% dps increase, where during 20 seconds of IV every two and a half minutes you might miss out on 1 or two occurrances. What am I missing here apart from the disruption it causes to the casting rhythm and the fact that I am not factoring in the Elemental?

Lhivera · 10/20/10, 7:49 AM

Yes, it's really that bad.

The first problem is that haste diminishes its effects. At 0% haste, it saves you a maximum of 2.0 seconds per minute (the GCD is 1.5 seconds, the base cast time is 2.0 seconds, so the effective savings regardless of cast time reduction is only 0.5 seconds per EF cast).

Now say you have 20% haste. Now, EF takes the cast time (again, limited by the GCD) down from 1.67 seconds to 1.25 seconds, a savings of 0.42 seconds, or only 1.68 per minute. So adding 20% haste has decreased the effectiveness of the talent by 16%.

The second problem is that the majority of extra cast time provided by EF goes into extra Frostbolts -- and Frostbolt, while making up about 2/3 of your casts, only makes up about 1/3 of your damage. It's enhancing your weakest spell.

When you mix in the final factor -- you don't actually get to use it four times a minute, because you're prioritizing every other spell on your list above it -- it simply fades into a miniscule effect.

Nathyiel · 10/20/10, 8:09 AM

If you have a 15% haste (gear, buff, ..) and 35% with IV/Time Warp, you will have:

Instant - 1.3s / 1.11s
Early Frost - 1.43s / 1.22s
Frostbolt - 1.74s / 1.48s

For the use of Icy Veins and Time Warp, if you use it at the same time it give 50% haste with 0 haste on stuff. Instant cast has a cap at 1s (50% haste). So It's a DPS loss because you have haste on stuff, with talent and buff. Instead, It can be a 80s burst phase if IV and Time Warp is use separatly.

edit> math correction

Incoherent · 10/20/10, 8:54 AM

Thank you for the explanation Lhivera. I forgot about the 1.5sec GCD, 1 second stuck in my brain for some reason and I stand humbly corrected.

However. Some counter points/thoughts.
In a one minute period, you will almost always have 4 occurrences and can almost reach 5. You could go almost 20 seconds between EFs and still obtain this. e.g Once at 2 secs, 2nd at 18 secs 3rd at 36 secs 4th at 54 secs.

The maximum possible number of (instant) casts between Frostbolts is 4 (3xFoF IL/DF + 1xBF), or 6 seconds delay (ok, 5 if FFO was up). But this is rare, <2 would be typical, 3 seconds?

With 1 point in EF, will you not benefit rather well? As I calculate, outside of IV and TW at haste levels below 42%, during IV at haste below 20%, during TW 9% . With both TW and IV, you lose 0.12, 0.08 and 0.06 seconds for those haste levels.

Basically you get full benefit (about 2.33% from 1 point) as long as GCD has not reached 1 second. This occurs at all haste levels below 42%.

I don't see it as enhancing the weakest spell. I see it as getting the weakest spell out of the way as quickly as possible to leave more room for better stuff.

jak3676 · 10/20/10, 9:56 AM

Hit to cap (17%)
Crit when below 33.33*%
Mastery
Crit when above 33.33%
Haste

I've been going by Lhivera's guide so far, but I wondered if you have a thought on where Intellect (or SP for that matter) would fit into this general guide - to figure out relative value of gems and enchants.

Also as a general question I'm wondering if others are finding themselves threat capped pretty often? I don't know if this is a matter of our tanks re-leaning their new talents or something that may stay with us. Currently I have to remember to pop invis after my first 30 sec with mirrors up - that's a dps loss for a few seconds. I'm actually looking at the old TBC enchant to lower threat by 2% and wondering if that'll help.

As for some of the debate on Early Frost - I understand how poor of a dps talent it can be. But with the current level 80 cap, there's just nothing else worth spending the points on. We can't get to Ignite in the Fire tree and there's not much point of talenting our FrostFire Orb which we won't pick up for another level. I end up maxing out Ice Shards and Enduring Winter (although you could scrape a point out of each). In order to get 31 points in the Frost tree currently I end up looking at spending 2 points between EF vs Imp CoC/Shattered Barrier/Reactive Barrier - EF may be a poor DPS increase, but it's better than nothing. I'm looking at putting 2 points into EF now, but pulling 1 out to put into FFO when we hit 81. I don't see myself pulling the 2nd point out until level 84 or 85 when we can spec deep enough to get Ignite.

Andazeus · 10/20/10, 3:20 PM

Originally Posted by jak3676

As for some of the debate on Early Frost - I understand how poor of a dps talent it can be. But with the current level 80 cap, there's just nothing else worth spending the points on.

There are lots of good alternatives. As was already mentioned, EF brings minimal damage, and for the 2 points you would need to spend on it, you can get a good deal of utility by taking 1/2 ice shards and 1/2 improved CoC. The greatly enhanced add control seems quite worthwhile to me when compared to a 50 or so dps gain.
Freezing and slowing was incredibly useful on fights like gunship battle, saurfang, valithria, faction champions, anub, etc.

Same thing with reactive barrier. Preventing death is ALWAYS a good dps boost.

Regarding item stats:

Lhivera's guide works very well for me and I expect mastery to do even better one the frostfire glyph is fixed.

Int and SP in general seems to be the most valuable stat to me, as it is the only one benefitting all our spells at once. However, I found it to be not very effective to miss out on the socket bonuses, as these are always spellpower now.

So say you've got a yellow socket with +7SP bonus.
Choice would be 20 int vs. 10 int + 10 crit -> 20 sp vs. 17 sp + 10 crit.

While sp is very valuable, I don't really think it's worth to skip out on 10 crit for just 3 sp.

And regarding threat:

Yes, I noticed threat issues as well and there is little you can do about it. The threat enchantment is not really an option. You're loosing out on stats and therefore damage, while you could just wait for a second or two to achieve the same effect. And even then, 2% are hardly noticeable when you build up 190% threat level before exiting mirror image phase.
Although it sounds not really helpful: my approach is currently having our 3 paladins all cast hand of salvation on me...

Apart from that, you might want to check if your tanks are using the new vengeance mechanic to full effect. Threat has vastly improved with ours, since they started actually watching out for vengeance.