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10/29/10, 1:05 PM
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#226
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Von Kaiser
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About Brain Freeze: it's good to know that holding it for a FoF proc is a dps increase. But I think we can make that an edge case by altering our play. Don't forget that Fingers of Frost builds 2 charges and procs about twice as often as Brain Freeze (30% vs. 15%). That means in a non-cleave situation we can hang on to the first FoF charge, only lancing on 2 charges, to save a charge for DF or BFFFB (okay I just love typing that abbreviation). As long as we don't generate a third charge, we don't lose any damage.
In other words: we should be holding FoF to wait on BF, not the other way around.
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10/29/10, 1:29 PM
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#227
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Bald Bull
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Frostfire Bolt, if Brain Freeze is active and will expire before another Frostbolt could finish casting.
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Suggestions like this make me nervous. The default graphic aura indicators already really need a way to visually distinguish whether (1) or (2) charges of Fingers of Frost are present. Now, the Brain Freeze proc potentially is just another signal for you to also check/watch your buff bars, to ascertain how long is left on that proc also.
We 'could just use Powa Auras', but was really hoping they can also bring the default UI up to scratch in this department before we consider abandoning it.
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10/29/10, 2:08 PM
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#228
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Tyrian
Suggestions like this make me nervous. The default graphic aura indicators already really need a way to visually distinguish whether (1) or (2) charges of Fingers of Frost are present. Now, the Brain Freeze proc potentially is just another signal for you to also check/watch your buff bars, to ascertain how long is left on that proc also.
We 'could just use Powa Auras', but was really hoping they can also bring the default UI up to scratch in this department before we consider abandoning it.
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As much as I like the new GUI elements for procs, I'll likely stick to my SBF-configured "proc bar" that I set to just above my toon's head. That handles all my short-term buffs/procs for easier monitoring such as with stuff like this.
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10/29/10, 3:18 PM
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#229
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Tyrian
Suggestions like this make me nervous. The default graphic aura indicators already really need a way to visually distinguish whether (1) or (2) charges of Fingers of Frost are present. Now, the Brain Freeze proc potentially is just another signal for you to also check/watch your buff bars, to ascertain how long is left on that proc also.
We 'could just use Powa Auras', but was really hoping they can also bring the default UI up to scratch in this department before we consider abandoning it.
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I'm assuming you meant to quote my suggestion instead. Anyway, I have experienced what you described -- occasionally I will glance at my buff bar for the little '2'. Since holding FoF for a BF proc is a dps upgrade, a change to the default UI to indicate number of charges would be most welcome.
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10/30/10, 10:18 AM
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#230
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Bald Bull
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Originally Posted by Dorrinal
ADon't forget that Fingers of Frost builds 2 charges and procs about twice as often as Brain Freeze (30% vs. 15%). That means in a non-cleave situation we can hang on to the first FoF charge, only lancing on 2 charges, to save a charge for DF or BFFFB (okay I just love typing that abbreviation). As long as we don't generate a third charge, we don't lose any damage.
In other words: we should be holding FoF to wait on BF, not the other way around.
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Actually did some simulation of this scenario a few weeks back, and it's not a good idea. It tends to result in overwriting more FOF charges and a small DPS loss unless you're standing very close to the target and have a reaction time of zero.
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At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
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10/30/10, 12:04 PM
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#231
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Glass Joe
Human Mage
Alterac Mountains
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Is the overwrite of FoF charges due to FFB and FB landing in the same time and both proccing FoF so a 1 FoF + 2 FoF equals a loss of one charge? Or is it related to FFO procs? If it is the first one, would it be possible, when you have 2 FoF charges and one BF charge, to do a IL,BF-FFB combo thus removing the possibility of wasting charges?
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10/31/10, 9:37 AM
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#232
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Bald Bull
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It's about flight time, reaction time, and the GCD. With Frostbolt's cast time as short as it is, it's entirely possible to have two Frostbolts in flight and have begun casting (or at least precasting) a third before your client and then your brain registers that you've just received a second FOF charge. Well, you're already casting another Frostbolt, so you don't want to interrupt it -- but the second frostbolt in flight then hits and procs FOF again and now you've wasted a charge. If you're banking a charge, you only need two consecutive procs to lose one, and the odds are not small that that'll happen several times over the course of an encounter.
I simmed this out pretty extensively a month or so ago when someone came up with the banking-a-charge idea on the official Mage forum. It sounded good to me and I was actually expecting (and kind of hoping) it would work out, but it didn't unless I cut the sim's reaction time and distance from the target significantly.
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At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.
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10/31/10, 11:35 AM
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#233
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Glass Joe
Human Mage
Alterac Mountains
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As I understand it, the testing is made for a stationary fight. Since frost does not have alot of opportunities for movement, could the banking be benificial if we know that we will have to move? We can't cast frostbolt on the move and IL without FoF is quite weak. If we spend our FoF charges the moment we have them, the probability of having one when we need to move is low. This strategy could have potential on movement phases where you would only be stationnary for a couple of casts. If you only cast 2 or 3 frostbolts, the probability to lose FoF charges is reduced alot.
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10/31/10, 1:32 PM
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#234
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Glass Joe
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Originally Posted by Brainpower
As I understand it, the testing is made for a stationary fight. Since frost does not have alot of opportunities for movement, could the banking be benificial if we know that we will have to move? We can't cast frostbolt on the move and IL without FoF is quite weak. If we spend our FoF charges the moment we have them, the probability of having one when we need to move is low. This strategy could have potential on movement phases where you would only be stationnary for a couple of casts. If you only cast 2 or 3 frostbolts, the probability to lose FoF charges is reduced alot.
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For a guaranteed movement phase (assuming a 1gcd movement phase for this situation) the difference between holding a charge of FoF is the difference between a normal IL (assume 33% crit chance) and a double damage guaranteed crit affected by mastery IL minus the value of a FoF charge (FoF IL - reg FrB) times the chance of a double back to back FoF proc. I don't think anyone needs to do the math to see the huge advantage of banking a charge of FoF for any guaranteed movement. That being said I haven't seen any Cata content to know how often guaranteed movement phases occur.
Here's a little bit of math anyways. At 80 on a target dummy self-buffed (29.62% crit, 8.91% mastery, 3248 sp, AI + glyphed MolArmor) my average IL under FoF is a 10k crit, my average non FoF IL is 2k damage, and my average frostbolt is 4.5/9k. My FrB cast time is 1.61 secs and my IL gcd is 1.203 sec. Ignoring early frost this gives FrB a dpct of 3623 and IL a dpct of 8312.6 giving IL a 5641.5 additional damage over its 1.2 sec GCD so with my stats delaying using a FoF charge for movement with a loss of a FoF charge results in 10k (FoF IL) - 2k (reg IL) - 5641.5 (lost charge) - 5641.5 (potential gain from charge pre-movement) = 3283 damage lost. On the other hand the gain if you don't lose a FoF charge for delaying is 10k - 2k - 5641.5 = 2358.5 damage. You also get 1 more FrB instead of an IL by delaying giving a 30% chance at a 2nd FoF for either a 2gcd movement phase or a 5641.5 damage gain after the movement. The chance of 3 consecutive FoF procs is low enough that the risk is definitely worth taking.
Last edited by pincus : 10/31/10 at 10:42 PM.
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11/01/10, 9:32 AM
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#235
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Von Kaiser
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I can't see that banking FoF can ever give you a DPS increase. In order to insure that about an extra 1-2% of your casts are Brain Freezes, you are dropping your proportion of Ice lances by almost ~10%. The shortfall must be taken up by Frostbolt. A large DPS loss. Under FFO, FoF is proccing ~50% of casts with only one target, more with several. You would be constantly losing FoFs by keeping a minimum of 1 up, but you wouldn't even realise it.
I see this modelling it rather simply. Even if you had insane reaction speed, and were in melee range, saving it for movement is not going to gain you as much as you think. You have already replaced at least one Ice lance with a Frostbolt, so your benefit from the extra one is not much more than the >30% chance you'll get one anyway, and definitely less than if FFO is zapping.
Since most ranged are ranged, you can't ever do better than getting rid of FoF procs as soon as you possibly can. The buffer of 2 can get filled up instantly, halving the size of that "Ice Lance" cache is not going to help you very often at all.
Last edited by Incoherent : 11/01/10 at 10:21 AM.
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11/01/10, 11:09 AM
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#236
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Glass Joe
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I believe the premise is that with room for 2ish frostbolts before a guaranteed movement phase is it proper to bank a FoF charge? I agree that during most circumstances banking the charge is a bad idea. But if you can time absolutely having one FoF charge with room for two more frostbolts before movement then the chances of losing one are incredibly slim. Obviously if FFO cooldown is up or DF + freeze are up for the movement this becomes a non-issue. And anything more than 2 frostbolts the chances of overwriting a charge become higher than the chances of gaining an FoF to cover the movement anyways, once again making banking useless. But for that one niche where for some reason you can already see a FoF charge ( whether due to previous movement or BF/FoF usage) and ~3 secs to movement banking will be a dps improvement more times than not.
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11/01/10, 1:46 PM
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#237
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Glass Joe
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What is it that you consider a "guaranteed movement phase" exactly? Getting out of the fires is unpredictable, and saving a FoF charge for that is no good. I'm guessing you mean something like Sindragosa, with timed phase changes that require positioning or predictable AoE? Then yes, if you have a charge or even brain freeze during those movements, you'll have a little higher damage. Number-crunching aside though, I think using that GCD to refresh ice barrier or smart use of blink to get in position faster might yield better results? It just sounds like a high risk method for not such a great increase.
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11/01/10, 2:59 PM
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#238
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Glass Joe
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The perfect example is Rotface for an ooze explosion. You get the warning with about 2 frostbolts time before you have to move 1 step. Blink is a waste of a GCD when it will only require you to move further to get back in melee. Ice Barrier is also a waste of a GCD when there is no ooze on you or in the raid since the only other damage is avoidable slimespray. My point is that in this rare time-able occasion the risk of those last 2 frostbolts both proccing FoF is very small. I am not by any means advocating saving up FoF procs in any other situation.
I would argue on any other fight the best time to refresh barrier/mana gem/mage ward is during a randomly occurring movement (ie; fire) rather than a phase of movement you know is coming and can plan to increase dps.
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11/03/10, 5:39 PM
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#239
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Piston Honda
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New beta build:
Frost- Shattered Barrier now freezes enemies within 10 yards for 2/4 sec, down from 3/6 sec.
- Fingers of Frost now has a 7/14/20% chance to proc from your Chill effects, down from 10/20/30%.
- Early Frost now reduces the cast time of Frostbolt by 0.3/0.6 sec, down from 0.35/0.7 sec.
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The only major change is the change to FoF but it is rather major. The latest data point I saw said that frostbolt was 2/3rds (roughly) of casts, but 1/3 of the damage. This change will definitely skew those numbers. Furthermore, it increases the value of Improved Freeze as getting two FoF procs is now more valuable.
It is a little concerning that the reduction in proc rate wasn't matched with an increase in raid damage in some way. I'd be very interested in seeing WoL parses post-patch in a raid environment.
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11/04/10, 6:07 AM
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#240
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Von Kaiser
Gnome Mage
Shadowsong (EU)
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Glyph of Deep Freeze
Havent seen this documented in any of the beta notes, assume its a ninja change in Unicorn.
Will make our DF hit like a truck on PvE bosses
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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
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