Frost Cataclysm Discussion [4.0 thread] - Page 19

bomba · 11/13/10, 4:55 PM

This was indeed on live, I imagine it won't be fixed (understandably) until 4.0.3 or 4.0.3a. My primary interest was with glyphed FFB procing FoF. I was wondering if the glyph should influence that or not.

Faxmonkey · 11/13/10, 8:25 PM

Originally Posted by bomba

This was indeed on live, I imagine it won't be fixed (understandably) until 4.0.3 or 4.0.3a. My primary interest was with glyphed FFB procing FoF. I was wondering if the glyph should influence that or not.

Are the dot ticks from the Glyph proccing FoF or just the initial hit? Because the initial hit still should proc FoF, for sure. If you'll recall the old Glyph of Frostbolt still allowed Frostbolt to proc Frostbite/FoF. The explanation was that it didn't really "remove" the snare so much as set it's value down to 0%. In other words, its a non-snaring snare, so it can still proc those effects.

If the DoT from the glyph is proccing FoF from its Frostfire damage, then that's a definite point in it's favor to consider for sims.

bomba · 11/14/10, 9:19 PM

Yes, it was the initial landing of FFB and not the ticks. The non-snaring snare also explains to me what's happening, thank you.

Nathyiel · 11/22/10, 9:36 AM

With the releases of the 4.03a patch, I have a few question:

Finger of Frost is nerf to 20%. Is Piercing Chill still bugged (works on single target) and will it still worth 2 points ?
Deep freeze's cooldown is confirmed to no longer scale with haste and Glyph of Deep Freeze now add 20% more damage to Deep Freeze. Is this make haste far more down compared to other stat ? Is this confirme the importance of Ignite before NP ?

edit: For glyph choice, is Deep Freeze/Frost Bolt/Molten Armor better than Deep Freeze/Ice Lance/Molten Armor ?
It's 5% crit on 40% dommage or 5% damage on 25% dommage. One more time, it will depend on mastery weigt.

Zakuhn · 11/22/10, 1:36 PM

Originally Posted by Nathyiel

Finger of Frost is nerf to 20%. Is Piercing Chill still bugged (works on single target) and will it still worth 2 points ?

I don't see why we wouldn't put 2/2 in Piercing Chill. Most builds that are posted here can afford to grab 2/2 Piercing Chill without losing anything crucial.

Originally Posted by Nathyiel

Deep freeze's cooldown is confirmed to no longer scale with haste and Glyph of Deep Freeze now add 20% more damage to Deep Freeze. Is this make haste far more down compared to other stat ? Is this confirme the importance of Ignite before NP ?

The results of Lhivera's simulation (post #189) done before haste affected the cooldown of Deep Freeze showed mastery being slightly better than haste. Lhivera also pointed out in post #185 that the final point in Ignite was worth twice that of Netherwind Presence.
EDIT: Although with the nerf to Fingers of Frost, we may need to cast more Frostbolts to gain more charges of Finger of Frost, so the value of haste may have been increased closer to that of Mastery. I leave that to people with more time on their hands to do the math.

As for your question on glyph choice, I do not feel qualified to give an answer on that right now, but I do wonder about the value of Glyph of Frostfire Bolt, and the value of Glyph of Molten Armor when we can reach the soft crit cap without it.

Vontre · 11/22/10, 10:10 PM

I've finally finished running some simulations in the Tier 11 gear. Frost was the last on my list. My results indicated it's better to save FoF/BF charges to be used in combination, except for a 2nd charge of FoF since you only need to save one. I corroborated this with Lhivera's latest results. Ignite is indeed baller. Nothing much new to say here, I have a magegraf thing to post. It does not include the Deep Freeze glitch however. I have Frost pulling ahead of Fire by a good 5% on your typical stand and nuke. Looks like the dps is very very good.

Glyphs are Molten Armor, Deep Freeze and Frostfire Bolt. I do have Molten Armor very slightly ahead of Frostbolt Glyph, but this would definitely change once you hit the Shatter crit cap.

Vontre's Magegraf

Lhivera · 11/22/10, 10:18 PM

My results match yours on the glyphs as well.

Tyrian · 11/23/10, 4:27 AM

I have Frost pulling ahead of Fire by a good 5% on your typical stand and nuke. Looks like the dps is very very good

Great news. Those following Beta will know that Cataclysm Frost has a lot going for it currently: It's fun, interactive rotation, good dps, very strong opening burst sequence potential - and doesn't have mana headaches. And many veteran Mages have a sentimental spot for wanting Frost to succeed in PvE. It's been 6 years - and now we're finally talking (with a straight face) about Frost being used seriously in raids. Not for gimmicks or niche roles, but as a Main Spec. That was a laughable proposition for many years of WoW's history, so we've come a long way.

It's interesting to note the big gap between how hard Mage Specs have to work for their DPS come Cataclysm - from a Mana Management perspective.

Comparing Frost and Fire: The Fire DPS rotation, while boring at 85 from a spell perspective, is a little more complex now from a Mana view - especially if you use Molten Armor. Fire Mages need to pay attention to mana, think carefully about the spells they cast, and react appropriately to variables such as fight length. But if you think that extra work you put into managing mana will obviously yield vastly superior DPS, don't jump the gun just yet.

Frost isn't exactly a hard rotation (albeit twitchy) but really doesn't have that burden (or perk, depending on your view) of needing to worry about Mana.

Essentially, Fire Mages have to work harder to potentially produce less DPS, outside of specific Cleave/AOE encounters. Cynical readers will wonder whether this state of affairs was intended by Blizzard.

Nathyiel · 11/23/10, 4:55 AM

Thanks all for your hard work. It began to be a little difficult to watch clearly after 12 pages of patch's analyses and math calculation.

In regard, the first post is pretty outdated. I will list here change that can be made:

Water elem crit's damage is now 200% and "crit" have a typo error. Can Waterbolt and Freeze be added ?
FoF proc rate is now 20%
Piercing description isn't clear. "Frostbolt's crit spread the chill effect to 2 nearby target. This effect can proc FoF a lot. in cleave situation. Etc" It should be stated that can aggro other mob that wander around?
The Raid Built part is also outdated. The standard can now be something like that: WoWhead, with explain for the choice of the sub-spec's talent. For utility purpose, point can be taken from Permafrost or Enduring Winter to Improved CoC or Ice Shard, for exemple.
In the Glyph part, Glyph of Deepfreeze have to be add. With Glyph of FFB and Deep Freeze has base choice, it can be add that Glyph of Frost bolt can replace glyph of Molten Armor if the 33% crit cap can be obtain without it.
In the Rotation part, it can be useful to add the starting sequence.
Hit cap, Crit cap, priority of stat choice, have to be add somewhere.

I think I have list all change and useful info.

Tyrian · 11/23/10, 7:37 AM

The Frost opening sequence is shaping up to be below. (With one variation, depending on whether you want 2 Frostfire Orbs up simultaneously and whether Cold Snap is on cooldown).

Simultaneous Frostfire Orbs - and - Cold Snap available

Prepull A - Mirror Image prepull
Prepull B - Volcanic Potion prepot

1 - Icy Veins + On-Use Effect (Trinket, Engineering Gloves)
2 - Cast "Freeze" then immediately -> Deep Freeze (Save the other FoF Charge for now)
3 - Frostfire Orb
4 - Cold Snap
5 - Frostfire Orb (2 Frostfire Orbs will be up simultaneously now)
---
6a - Deep Freeze again immediately (Using the FoF charged you saved from the first "Freeze")
6b - "Heavy Ice Lance Spam" (Due to the 2 Frostfire Orbs being up simultaneously, will be mostly Ice Lance Spam for the next 15 seconds
---
7 - Icy Veins (As soon as the first one expired)
8 - Normal rotation

Staggered Frostfire Orbs - and / or - Cold Snap unavailable

Prepull A - Mirror Image prepull
Prepull B - Volcanic Potion prepot

1 - Icy Veins + On-Use Effect (Trinket, Engineering Gloves)
2 - Cast "Freeze" then immediately -> Deep Freeze (Save the other FoF Charge for now)
3 - Frostfire Orb
4 - Cold Snap
---
5 - Deep Freeze again immediately (Using the FoF charged you saved from the first "Freeze")
---
6 - Frostfire Orb (When the first expires)
7 - Icy Veins (When the first expires)
8 - Normal rotation

If you opt for a Simultaneous Frostfire Orb sequence, be mindful that:

- Both Frostfire Orbs get full benefits from the same Volcanic Potion (Unlike the staggered variant. You could use a second potion for stagged Orbs, but that will start the Potion combat timer. Consequently, if you use Heroism later in the fight, you wouldn't have a Combat Potion available then)
- Fingers of Frost charges come fast with simultaneous orbs. You'll need to have quick/good reaction and awareness, or you risk losing charges.
- On fights with quick run backs, or can be leashed, you can probably only use Cold Snap every second pull.

Lhivera · 11/23/10, 7:38 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Essentially, Fire Mages have to work harder to potentially produce less DPS, outside of specific Cleave/AOE encounters. Cynical readers will wonder whether this state of affairs was intended by Blizzard.

I think if you haven't got a doctorate in neurology, it's probably not a good idea to get into an argument about what rotation (of any spec) is more difficult. Just as an example, the sort of multi-condition decisions that Frost has to make every few seconds put a significantly higher load on the human brain than the sort of timer-based and single-condition decisions that Fire needs to make -- but how much higher? What's the cumulative effect? How much does it affect decision-making? (Increasing load on the brain degrades the quality of decision-making significantly, not just the speed.)

In short, a whole lot of people over the years have argued that Spec A is easier than Spec B and produces higher DPS, and that That Ain't Fair. I'd venture to say that not one of them (myself included) was even remotely qualified to evaluate that to any reasonable degree of accuracy.

Tyrian · 11/23/10, 7:47 AM

Work harder in this context, referred to the amount of effort and thought required to maintain Mana as a resource. That's it. But I admit, the discussion you referred to would be a much more fascinating one to have, if there are any neurologists out there.

One thing i'm not sure of on the opening sequence is, should we use a Frostbolt immediately on pull (taking advantage of Early Frost)? Or directly from IV+Trinket into Freeze->Deep Freeze etc.

Lhivera · 11/23/10, 7:52 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Work harder in this context, referred to the amount of effort and thought required to maintain Mana as a resource. That's it. But I admit, the discussion you referred to would be a much more fascinating one to have, if there are any neurologists out there.

It's true that Fire needs to work harder on that particular element of its performance; I'm just saying, that's not the sum total of performance. We really have no idea which one works harder on the totality of its performance.

Frankly, even brain scientists are only beginning to understand this stuff. They've only recently been doing experiments trying to demonstrate whether holding information in short-term memory degrades decision-making (evidence seems clear that it does, significantly), and to quantify it. I have a feeling they'd look at this question and say, "come back to us in twenty years."

As for the Frostbolt opener, I don't believe so, no. It increases the DPET of Frostbolt by about 43%, and Frostbolt's DPET is only about half its nearest competitor. Even with Early Frost, Frostbolt is your lowest priority.

SpartAdept · 11/23/10, 8:19 AM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Work harder in this context, referred to the amount of effort and thought required to maintain Mana as a resource. That's it. But I admit, the discussion you referred to would be a much more fascinating one to have, if there are any neurologists out there.

One thing i'm not sure of on the opening sequence is, should we use a Frostbolt immediately on pull (taking advantage of Early Frost)? Or directly from IV+Trinket into Freeze->Deep Freeze etc.

I need to ask, why you're using ice lance after Deep Freeze in an opener, as opposed to;
Mirror Image/Pre-pot
Icy Veins + On use Trinket
Pet Freeze > DeepFreeze
Frostfire Orb
>>Cold Snap<<
Deep Freeze
Frostfire Orb

As far as debating Early Frost over the 2nd Deep Freeze/Frostfire Orb. We're talking about a 5 second difference in fight time that could change views. 5 seconds isn't something that you can realistically measure. I would have to say using Early Frost would show the safer potential out of a fight. But what it comes down to is, you'll get;
2 Early Frost's under your pre-pot.
2 Deep Freeze's
2 Frostfire Orb's.

The strongest of those 3, that you would LOVE to have 1 more of in a fight, would be that Deep Freeze. Frostfire Orb is strong, but its cool-down isn't much you can work with.

I would suggest the following;

Mirror Image/Pre-pot
Icy Veins + On use Trinket
Pet Freeze > DeepFreeze
Frostfire Orb
Early Frost - Frostbolt
>>Cold Snap<<
Deep Freeze
Frostfire Orb

Chances are, if you're standing 25-30 yards from the boss, due to travel time on the orb, your frostbolt and orb will hit the target at the same time, then a cold snap>Deep Freeze follow up after your frostbolt. At which point you'll have 0-1 FoF stacks, and can either ice lance before the 2nd Orb cast (if the frostbolt or orb procs FoF) or if you're still at 0 stacks of FoF, you can release your second Orb. However if you have 2 FoF stacks, you'll obviously choose to Ice lance before casting the 2nd orb.

The only downside would be, the fight ending in the middle of Frostfire Orb being out, or ending 2 seconds before Deep Freeze comes off cooldown. Both of which aren't apart of science, rather than luck.

Tyrian · 11/23/10, 8:22 AM

Icy Veins + On use Trinket
Pet Freeze > DeepFreeze
Frostfire Orb

You're right, that makes much more sense. Freeze -> Immediately Deep Freeze, but save the other FoF charge for the next Deep Freeze after the Cold Snap. Travel time on the Frostfire Orbs should make this easy, without loss of FoF procs. Editing the above post (and removing Early Frost Frostbolt) turns the simultaneous Frostfire Orb sequence into:

Prepull A - Mirror Image prepull
Prepull B - Volcanic Potion prepot

1 - Icy Veins + On-Use Effect (Trinket, Engineering Gloves)
2 - Cast "Freeze" then immediately -> Deep Freeze (Save the other FoF Charge for now)
3 - Frostfire Orb
4 - Cold Snap
5 - Frostfire Orb (2 Frostfire Orbs will be up simultaneously now)
---
6a - Deep Freeze again immediately (Using the other FoF charge you saved from the first "Freeze")
6b - "Heavy Ice Lance Spam" (Due to the 2 Frostfire Orbs being up simultaneously, will be mostly Ice Lance Spam for the next 15 seconds
---
7 - Icy Veins (As soon as the first one expired)
8 - Normal rotation

*If you wish to stagger the two Frostfire Orbs, just cast the second one 15 seconds after Step 3.