-Frostfire Bolt would do what simply Frost Bolt does now, and Frost Bolt would be given a good niche as the intermediate nuke to be used on short movement. So I don't get how you're taking this change as a turnback to boring.

- It's also not stable that Arcane has ruled until late ICC so uniformly, or how fire ruled before it. There will always be an optimal setup. The change would not put FB against FFB-- it would make FFB take the place of FB and FB becomes your under pressure nuke when you're short on time and can't afford the longer cast. They've done it with Fireball and Scorch, so I don't see the problem here.

-There have been no serious attempts at making FFB a nuke that functions like FB. It would make zero difference besides the fact that it's a different spell graphic and the change would merely have good ramifications for the spec's performance in PvP. It doesn't have to affect the PvE aspect at all.

We actually put a great deal of effort and feedback on the beta forums into encouraging changes to make sure FFB did not replace Frostbolt as our primary nuke. Frostbolt serving as the primary nuke not only helps reinforce the fact that we're first and foremost Frost casters, not elemental casters, but also helps provide a significant difference in the way the spec feels by providing a very fast-casting primary nuke.

FFB now serves two niches for Frost: it packs a hell of a punch when cast on Brain Freeze with FoF up, and it provides a whopping 70% snare (if fully talented), with the tradeoff of requiring a longer cast time. When soloing, it essentially serves the same roll for Frost as Pyroblast does for Fire: it's a strong opener (heavy snare, higher first-hit damage), and a very powerful proc.

It's interesting to note that this thread hasn't really got the attention it deserves. The Frost spec has largely been forgotten by many mages over the years. It simply was never viable outside of gimmick resistance instances/encounters (BWL, MC, Illidan), Fights relying on its superior snare control (Freya +3) - or special gimmick fights (Vezax Hardmode). Eventually, especially for those who don't PVP, Frost itself just dropped out of the common mage vocabulary when discussing concepts such as "Raid Viable" or "Competitive" or even "fun".

With that said, many mages will be pleasantly surprised when sampling Cataclysm Frost. If your memory of Frost from TBC and WOTLK is nothing more than 'mindless Frostbolt spam', you'll find Cataclysm Frost to be refreshingly interactive, exciting - and fun! Procs come at you every other spell, and you'll need to be on your toes to use them. More Frost spells have a compelling role in the rotation, and Chills and Freezes are concepts heavily supported by the talents - just like how Dots and Burning is done for Fire.

It seems like a strange oversight that Ignite is going to be required for Frost mages, due to Frostfire Bolt being cast on Brain Freeze Procs (especially when Fingers of Frost + Shatter are accounted for). That's 8 skill points into the fire tree to support this spell, which itself is only a proc in the Frost tree. As Lhivera mentioned, FFB serves to fill some great niches - but one unfortunate niche is how much it limits subspec choice, via its benefits from Ignite. One that gets ironed out, the FFB spell really will have solidified its exciting niche within the Frost tree.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the Frostfire Orb talent is very interesting. The first point is for PVE, granting Frostfire Orb the ability to benefit from Frost Specialisation. The second point does nothing except add 10% to FFB's snare. FFB packs quite a snare fully talented (70%) but it still seems a little.. strange, that the 1st and 2nd point function so differently like this. Is the second point of Frostfire Orb only intended to be +10% to FFB, and not do anything to affect its namesake talent? It almost seems the talent is missing part of the tooltip which should read, '... and increases the damage of your Frostfire Orb by a further X / Y %".

There has been some talk of the range of Frost spells. It seems a little odd that all Frost spells have 35 yards, whereas Ice Lance can be talented to 40 yards. Ice Lance can be used on Water Elemental Freeze targets at 40 yards. Frostfire bolts cast at 40 yards could grant FoF and allow you to Ice Lance, but enemies are likely to already be at 35 yards by then anyway. All other actions will draw you to 35 yards. Frostbolt is a hard hitting snare, but that doesn't form the lion's share of your rotation. If that aspect of the talent is solely intended to be a way to Freeze+Ice Lance at 40 yards, it serves its purpose. But if giving Ice Lance a longer range is meant to offer more compelling uses, they don't seem to be there. The talent itself (even with the Blizzard snare) is questionable.

The Cata graphical aura overlay (For FoF) needs to visually offer a way to distinguish between 1 or 2 FoF charges present. Simply make it thicker or thinner. FoF procs are coming so often (even after Piercing Chill gets fixed) that the UI can be a little frustrating at times here.

It's a little dissappointing to AOE (as Frost) after experimenting with AOE (as Fire). The Blizzard spell has been largely rendered a thematically toothless tiger now. It packs a mediocre 50% snare, and has lost Frostbite (and thus Shatter interaction). A fully talented Blizzard (in TBC / WOTLK) was a mean powerhouse, and that sentiment has being eroded by Cataclysm.

However we should put the "Frost AOE is boring" comments into perspective: Fire does a damn good job of making AOE interactive and fun. Other specs, even other classes, would be a little envious of all Fire spells and mechanics which work together beautifully to make AOE more exciting and interactive than "Stand here and cast AOE spell X". Frost's AOE playstyle pales in comparison to Fire, as does Arcane and probably other classes too. What's one way to spice up Frost AOE to be more comparable to Fire? How about if Ice Lance and FFB (Via Fingers of Frost and Brain Freeze) were castable while channeling Blizzard? Or Ice Lance, after casting a Blizzard, could hit X/Y additional targets for a small period? That would be a little more interactive, and intuitive than simply wathing your Blizzard accumulate FoF charges but unable to use them. Anything to make AOE something more than "Stand here and cast X".

Some of these are Icing on the cake issues. The spec is no doubt in good shape, but there's room for improvemnt. It's indeed quite ironic that arguably the most pressing problem currently for Frost, is actually a talent in the Fire tree.

The second point of Frostfire Orb also adds a snare (40%) to Frostfire Orb itself.

I don't buy the snare argument anymore. Arcane Blast does more damage than Frostbolt and puts a more effective snare on the target with Nether Vortex. I could be convinced it was a caster vs. melee thing in pvp but only frost? Every other caster / ranged DPS has a 40 yard range. If affliction locks can curse / fear from 40 yards than I would hope that frostbolt isn't that big of an issue.

I am still holding out some hope that they just haven't gotten around to adjusting the spell ranges yet. But time is running short, so you may be correct.

Well actually, when you cast Arcane blast on a target. It will only apply Slow on the target if its within 35 yards.
This feels really flawed and hope this gets changed. Also it you can only have on slow active so it's not possible anymore to slow one target and dps another target, this can be a problem for pvp and special raid encounters. But this isn't the right topic to talk about this problem.

I do agree with all the classes and their most of their CC, it's silly that Frosts range isn't increased. It will mainly matter in large Battle grounds (AV) or Wintergrasp

They're not done with range changes.

For example, while Cyclone received the blanket .5 sec base cast time increase, it still is not set at 30 yards like the other CC's were put at.

I've updated the initial posts to include information about the Tier 11 set bonuses and to remove outstanding questions about Curtain of Frost. I think other than minor graphical issues, most of CoF's issues have been resolved.

If there are any other changes people would like to see in the initial posts please let me know. While interest in frost mage raiding may be limited, I still want to make the information as accurate as possible.

I don't think it's necessarily because of the limited interest that this thread has had no replies, as much as the fact that, well, frost doesn't seem to have issues: it's got a good rotation, the mechanics are good, etc etc.
The only thing i can think of is that Early Frost is a rather sucky talent (see Lhivera on the beta forums), but at this point it's a very minor thing.
Has anyone run a simulation comparing the three specs at 85, or do you think it's still too early?

As someone who managed to raid all of Wrath as Frost, I'm ridiculously excited about the revamp. The "3" button on my keyboard has long since been worn off from spamming Frostbolt and it'll be nice give it a bit of a break.

One thing that became apparent while playing around on the PTR is that haste cooldown staggering is going to be much more prominent and will likely come into play pretty early, gear-wise.

With my live character PTR copy, I'm hugging the GCD with just Icy Veins, speed pot, 3/3 Netherwind, and 38.5% gear haste. Now, I doubt we're ever going to see 38% gear haste in Cataclysm: this was the result of having nothing else to gear for.

If we go with a more reasonable haste rating of 15%, we hit the GCD with Time Warp, Icy Veins, 3/3 Netherwind Presense, Moonkin/Spriest aura, and WoA Totem. Other forms of haste that would have to be staggered elsewhere or subbed in for something above would be Berserking, trinkets, potions, enchant/gear procs, and the Tier 11 4-piece bonus (10% cast time reduction to Frostbolt).

This all, of course, doesn't take Early Frost into account. That talent is an absolute mess with cooldowns, as it's below the GCD with buffs from the mage alone (Time Warp, IV, Netherwind) and zero gear haste. GCD issues aside, this talent just feels gross. Frostbolt is very much the rhythm of the spec, and the occassional shift of 0.5 seconds is just jarring and incredibly difficult to follow up with a Shatter at less-than-awesome latency.

(Sidenote: As someone who PvPs as Fire, I'm also against the current idea on the beta forums of switching Early Frost into Frostfire Blast. It's dumping way too much [stun, DoT spread, snare, and possible Shatter finisher] onto Fireblast.)

We're also going to have to pay close attention to how tank threat develops as we go through the numbers passes. With the addition of Improved Freeze, we will have 2 guaranteed Deep Freezes immediately, as well as 40 straight seconds of Icy Veins uptime. The double Deep Freeze will be a hell of a threat bomb, and we'll need to be sure tanks can make up for it during the 30 seconds of Mirror Image.

EDIT: Does Deep Freeze still not have an animation for when it deals damage?

In case one does not spec Brain Freeze for whatever reason, would using Arcane Missiles procs be a damage increase compared to Frostbolt?
If yes, then an arcane subspec doesn't seem out of reach -given the quite high proc chance, even if FFB brought more mobility and FoF procs. If no, then... well nevermind. It's just that I've thought (and read) that AM should be "desirable to cast" even for Frost/Fire for mana -and- damage reasons.