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Old 10/05/10, 11:21 AM   #76
Zeldyrr
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Garona
I've updated the OP to include the few logical choices for talent specs as it stands on the PTR/in beta. If I missed something or people would like me to include additional choices, please reply below.

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Old 10/05/10, 12:27 PM   #77
Endario
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Proudmoore
Small nitpick, but may want to make a note that the Improved Blink spec could be shifted to 3/3 Burning Soul and 0/2 Master of Elements 1/3 Enduring Winter should mana wind up being less of a concern than pushback.

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Old 10/05/10, 1:04 PM   #78
Fröstler
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Wrathbringer (EU)
On the first page on all of the 3 raiding talent builds you specced 2/2 ice shards.

Isn't 1 point enough, because we do not need the full range for ice lance since frostbolt does not have 40yards range?

I suggest
WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie
with the option to move 2 points from enduring winter to permafrost.
The one point in early frost can also put somewhere else if haste is too high.

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Old 10/05/10, 1:24 PM   #79
Erdluf
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Echo Isles
Originally Posted by Zeldyrr View Post
I would like to start to morph this thread from "how is it looking in beta" mode to to "how is frost behaving on live" mode as patches 4.0.1 and 4.03 are released. I've updated the original post to include a section on the three new mages spells and how they interact with frost talents.

I would also like to add sections on coefficients (as they stabilize) and suggested talent builds, with required and optional points. If people could reply here with such information I will check for accuracy/consistency and summarize in the original post.
The following is extracted from simulationcraft header files (and those are extracted from game files). This should be every mage spell with a coefficient other than zero or one. There may be values in here which are not actually active in the game.

These are from build 13131

SpellCoefTick ms
Arcane Barrage0.765 
Arcane Blast1.057 
Arcane Explosion0.143 
Arcane Missiles0.234 
Blast Wave0.143 
Blizzard0.119 
Blizzard0.095 
Combustion0.429 
Cone of Cold0.214 
Deep Freeze2.572 
Dragon's Breath0.193 
Fire Blast0.429 
Fireball1.124 
Flame Orb0.134 
Flamestrike0.146 
Flamestrike0.0612000
Flashburn2.5 
Freeze0.029 
Frost Nova0.193 
Frostbolt0.857 
Frostburn2.5 
Frostfire Bolt0.977 
Frostfire Bolt0.007333000
Ice Lance0.378 
Living Bomb0.2333000
Living Bomb0.233 
Mana Adept1.51000
Pyroblast1.25 
Pyroblast0.0873000
Pyroblast!1.305 
Pyroblast!0.0873000
Scorch0.539 
Waterbolt0.833 

I have no idea what the tick speed for Mana Adept means.

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Old 10/05/10, 2:05 PM   #80
Gilthanor
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Boulderfist
Three, frost mages only cast FFB about 2.25 times a minute on average (according to initial simulations) so Ignite is not the must have talent it might appear to be at first glance.
Source for this? I skimmed back through this thread but I'm probably missing it. How much does the FFB rate go up when considering Piercing Chill and multiple targets? My point is that Ignite could end up as an encounter-specific talent for Frost, especially if the 2.25 FFBs per minute you mention is only on a single target.

Last edited by Gilthanor : 10/05/10 at 2:15 PM.

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Old 10/05/10, 2:50 PM   #81
Lhivera
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Aggramar
As best I've been able to determine so far, Piercing Chill increases FOF proc rates but not Brain Freeze proc rates. Brain Freeze process on cast rather than on hit, so it has presumably already been checked by the time Piercing Chill is applied.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

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Old 10/05/10, 3:35 PM   #82
Zeldyrr
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Garona
Originally Posted by Fröstler View Post
On the first page on all of the 3 raiding talent builds you specced 2/2 ice shards.

Isn't 1 point enough, because we do not need the full range for ice lance since frostbolt does not have 40yards range?
Yes, the 2 points was more for the add/trash control with blizzard. One could argue that max range Ice Lance might be a slight DPS increase on very high mobility fights.

I suggest
WoW Talent Calculator - Sigrie
with the option to move 2 points from enduring winter to permafrost.
The one point in early frost can also put somewhere else if haste is too high.
Well the build as linked has 5 pts in efficiency talents and that is almost undoubtedly too many. Frost mages have no real way of converting excess mana into damage so being hyper mana efficient probably doesn't impact the meters at all. And note if you move points out of EW to permafrost (as you suggest) and move points out of Early Frost (as you also suggest might happen depending on haste) then you are back to one of my first two builds on the first post. There isn't that much difference between them, certainly as measured on the damage meters.

I add a slight variation of your build to the first post as sort of a throw back to old school, take-every-DPS-talent-no-matter-how-small line of thinking. Thanks for the feedback. Perhaps there is slightly more room for disagreement about what to spec for frost than I first anticipated and that is a good thing.

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Old 10/07/10, 7:30 PM   #83
damagedone
Glass Joe
 
Human Rogue
 
Zangarmarsh
Can we talk about Frostfire Bolt as the main nuke for a deep Frost PVE build?

The only thing I can see keeping it from being a top contender is that Brain Freeze no longer procs from it. It's still Beta and might very easily be reverted.

The advantages are a bigger base nuke with a larger coefficient and Ignite in a build that has a very high crit chance, especially at lower gear levels.

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Old 10/07/10, 7:45 PM   #84
Tyrian
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Frostmourne
Can we talk about Frostfire Bolt as the main nuke for a deep Frost PVE build?
Blizzard and beta-testers have taken steps several times to prevent this from actually being viable. This means that even if a way was found to make FFB viable as primary nuke for Frost, via unforeseen or unplanned mechanic interaction, Blizzard would alter said mechanics to intentionally break its viability again.

The reason for this comes back to the subjective argument, "Should Frostbolt be the main (and only) Primary Nuke for the Frost tree?" Currently, Blizzard says the answer is yes. FFB still has situational, compelling uses for Frost (Opening snare, Brain Freeze procs) - but that's it. Fire appears to be the only tree where Blizzard is allowing FFB to be explored and used as a primary nuke replacement.

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Old 10/07/10, 7:53 PM   #85
Lhivera
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Aggramar
The problem with a deep Frost FFB build is that there isn't really any good way to make it optional. Either Frostbolt is better and FFB doesn't work (the current situation), or FFB is better and Frostbolt doesn't work (which we, for certain values of "we," don't want). The two spells are too different to keep their performance very close together. This isn't a problem with Fireball and FFB, given the identical cast times; they can make the glyphs work as a toggle in that case, allowing the player to choose a nuke rather than being forced into one by performance differences.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

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Old 10/08/10, 12:34 PM   #86
Skallewag
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Moonglade (EU)
That doesn´t seem to be going on for fire either though. The FFB dot currently only stacks to a certain point for fire so even firemages who want to cast FFBs will also want to cast fireballs making it look like you want both glyphs for that kind of build.

But that belongs in the firethread, I just wanted to mention it in context to FFBs role for fire and frost.

Plopp plopp kaboom! This is an intelligent signature.

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Old 10/08/10, 12:48 PM   #87
Benefice
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Frostwolf
I haven't seen discussion yet of whether high spell power and haste will ultimately lead to a flipping of priorities for Frostbolt and Ice Lance on FoF procs. In other words, since spell power benefit Frostbolt more than Ice Lance, during Bloodlust/IV hasted periods when Frostbolt casts approach the GCD, could consuming FoF buffs with Frostbolt yield higher DPS than using Ice Lance?

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Old 10/08/10, 12:57 PM   #88
Light4
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Mage
 
Antonidas (EU)
Frostbolt does not consume the FoF effect nor is it influenced by it. FoF only works for DF and IL.

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Old 10/08/10, 11:14 PM   #89
nhlkdog411
Glass Joe
 
Human Death Knight
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Light4 View Post
Frostbolt does not consume the FoF effect nor is it influenced by it. FoF only works for DF and IL.
and brainfreeze frostfirebolts

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Old 10/10/10, 8:45 AM   #90
Light4
Piston Honda
 
Gnome Mage
 
Antonidas (EU)
Then neither wowhead nor the talent calculator at wowtal is up-to-date.

Fingers of Frost

Last edited by Light4 : 10/10/10 at 9:21 AM.

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