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Old 11/07/10, 5:26 PM   #31
Nissin
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Mage
 
Lightning's Blade
The new meta gem requirements will just change how you gear yourself, as in finding items under budgeted and lacking in hit stats and gemming blue hit gems to get the meta + hit cap.

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Old 11/07/10, 7:51 PM   #32
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
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Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
[Edit]: Apparently, I misread the new meta gems requirements. The previous post is now outdated. I'll let it remain in spoiler tag, if anyone wants to follow the old thought for their own information.
Click Here ← Click Here
Originally Posted by Nissin View Post
The new meta gem requirements will just change how you gear yourself, as in finding items under budgeted and lacking in hit stats and gemming blue hit gems to get the meta + hit cap.
Unless I'm missing somthing, I don't see that happen for a while. Intellect is our strongest stat until 10k SP, which we won't achieve in the first raid tier. When we get there, we have 1 hit = 1 int, and hit is limited. It may also change, if they change the rating/1%hit for later tier (or it may no change if they just increase the 17% miss chance). The other 3 ratings are significantly below the value of hit rating, as given below.

Since Intellect is determined by item level (all items of one slot and level with the same amout of sockets have the same int/str/agi) and hit has a cap, the optimal gearing is as follows:
1) Get the gear with the highest item level. Exceptions only if the ratings are of a bad type (crit for soft-capped frost).
2) Gear should likely have sockets (uncertain on budget of sockets).
3) Trinket should have intellect. A 300 Int trinket adds 300 int, while a 300 hit trinket means you reforge your sets and you end up with 300 mastery/crit/haste, which is a lot worse. Good proc can turn the tables however.
4) Try to reach the hit cap by reforging. Your gemming with the values below then lead to intellect-spam, exceptions being only extremely good socket bonuses which are not just yellow/blue compination.
5) Get the remaining int+hit gems to acitivate the meta gem, most likely in (red+)blue sockets.

You'll definitely not want gear with low hit to focus on hit gems. And I'm not sure what you mean with under budgeted gear either. Correct me if I'm wrong or missing something.

Last edited by Roywyn : 11/08/10 at 11:51 AM.

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

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Old 11/07/10, 10:09 PM   #33
Morkai
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Mage
 
Azralon
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
5) Get the remaining int+hit gems to acitivate the meta gem, most likely in (red+)blue sockets.
You actually need pure blue gems to activate the meta, purples won't do it

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Old 11/07/10, 11:24 PM   #34
Jept
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Drenden
Green gems would satisfy the blue gem requirement while not adding the the red gem count.

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Old 11/08/10, 6:05 AM   #35
Tyrian
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Frostmourne
The three PvE Green gems which can be used to push up your Blue Gem count towards the meta (yet still satisfy a Yellow socket) are: Northrend gems by stats - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Piercing: Hit + Critical
Lightning: Hit + Haste
Sensei: Hit + Mastery

And of course the stamina ones, but not sure if anyone would use those.

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Old 11/08/10, 12:04 PM   #36
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
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Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
A preliminary analysis of meta gems (corrected)

The Chaotic meta gem now requires more blue than red gems. Ouch. That's actually enough to make the Ember meta more desirable in many situations. If you want to use a Chaotic meta, you should gem one green in a yellow socket, then pairs of green/red gems in yellow/red sockets (pick those yellow sockets with the best bonuses first) and then fill the rest with purple gems. The gem parts being red = int, blue = hit, yellow = best of crit/haste/mastery. The details, break points and reasons are listed in detail in this post.


Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft - more blue than red.
Bracing Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft - at least 1 blue, 1 yellow.
Ember Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft - at least 2 yellow.
Fleet Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft - at least 2 yellow.
  • The run speed meta is not good, since it has mastery and you can gain run speed on your feet at a loss of 15 mastery. 54 intellect easily beats 54+15 mastery and similar combinations of ratings.
  • The intellect meta gems can be activated by intellect spam and 2 adjustments. The current gear allows that while even gaining DPS from socket bonuses.
  • The Chaotic diamond is painful to activate and requires some planning, but it's not too bad. Assume you have R red, Y yellow, B blue sockets on your gear.
    Fill Y yellow sockets with green gems, Y-1 red sockets with red gems and the remaining sockets with purple gems. This is the maximum you can get, since "rating>intellect" is an implicit constraint (green + red = 2*purple in that regard). Now, the above process fails if you have at least 2 more yellow than red sockets (R<Y-1, R<=Y-2). Call D=Y-1-R the amount of yellow sockets that cannot be paired up with reds. You can fill them with purple gems, or fill them pairwise with orange+green gems, trading 20 int for 20 rating + 1-2 socket bonuses. As those socket bonuses will be weak since we fill sockets with strong bonuses first (green/red combo), those remaining sockets are likely not worth it.

So, let's look at what gear is available to mages right now: Items - World of Warcraft
4/5 T11, non-set Headpiece and the rest of the good gear will give us 4 red, 4 yellow, 2 blue sockets.

MetaGemsBonusesTotal:IntellectRating 
Ember Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of WarcraftRed-; Red/Purple+; Red+; Red-; Purple+; Orange/Red+; Red+; Red-70 intellect, 20 haste 4648040 hit, 20 haste, 20 choice
Chaotic Shadowspirit Diamond - Item - World of WarcraftGreen+; Red/Purple+; Red+; Green+; Purple+; Green/Red+; Purple+; Green+80 intellect, 10 mastery, 40 haste 260324140 hit, 10 mastery, 40 haste, 54 crit, 80 choice
(Gems are listed in the order in which they appear in the link. +/- indicate getting/losing the set bonus. Also, the +20 haste belt bonus for the chaotic meta is likely too high.)

So, let's simplify this a bit. With Lhivera's numbers, 3 rating = 1 int (for haste/mastery, and hit can be traded after the cap. Our combinations then become "464 int + 80/3 int + 2% max. mana" and "260 int + 324/3 int + 3% crit damage", with the the crit damage now being a flat 1.03 multiplier for us (we have a X1.33 crit damage miltiplier instead of our old x2 crit bonus) and 120 intellect (the difference) being a 2% damage increase by SP/Crit alone. The Chaotic 3% can only be a damage increase if 2/3 of your damage is crit damage.

Not that this is at your current gear levels with the current amount of gems. When our gear levels increase, the value of ratings will likely increase (not as much as I initially thought though, since intellect and rating levels on gear are mostly the same), but the amount of gems will likely increase as well, which increases the loss from gemming.
  • Arcane at 33% crit has 50% crit damage, 50% noncrit damage. So the Chaotic meta part adds 1.5% damage and should not be used. The Ember meta gem adds more damage through intellect alone, and grants extra mana through intellect and the 2% max mana bonus which synergises with burn cycles and Mana Adept as well.
  • Frost is a little tougher. About 50% of the damage are DF/IL crits. The remaining 50% are FrB/FFB/FO, half of their damage being crits at 33% crit (soft cap target). So we have 75% crit damage and the Chaotic meta adds 0.75*3% = 2.25% damage, while the Ember meta adds 2% damage. This should put the Chaotic slightly above the Ember diamond since mana does not seem to be a concern.
  • Fire has a crit multiplier of ~3 with Ignite/Flashburn. Assuming 40% crit, about 2/3 of the damage is crit, so the Chaotic diamond adds 2% damage, just like the Ember diamond by SP/Crit alone. There is some more benefit from the extra mana through intellect and the additional 2% max mana since you are limited by mana/required to Scorch.
  • Since the given numbers are all estimates, we cannot make any reliable predictions yet. Arcane will probably err towards Ember, Frost possibly towards Chaotic, but they seem to be in similar ballparks. For Fire, anything I'd say could be a guess.

So, with the new "More blue than red gems." requirement, the value of the Chaotic meta takes a huge drop at level 85. The main reason being that intellect is such a powerful stat compared to the other ones. The second reason is that there are a decent amount of sockets available, 10 in the gear set above. The more sockets there are, the higher the loss for the Chaotic meta. If the amount of sockets should increase in higher tiers (like 3 in robes/leggings, 2 in shoulders/gloves/etc.), it requires even more spell power for the Chaotic meta gem to break even. Ironically, when you have just 2 or 3 sockets in weak gear, the Chaotic meta is significantly ahead until you get to tier sets.

[Addendum]: Newer numbers from World of Warcraft: Cataclysm Beta - (English) Forums -> Mage 2 Cont (Till Blizz extends megathread) bring the Chaotic and Embe closer togehter. Also, the poster below was correct, I actually messed up the numbers. They should be mostly fixed now, though.

Last edited by Roywyn : 11/12/10 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Fixed some of the mess and mistakes.

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

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Old 11/08/10, 2:57 PM   #37
Beasterbrown
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Anvilmar
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
So, let's simplify this a bit. With Lhivera's numbers, 3 rating = 1 int (for haste/mastery, and hit can be traded after the cap. Our combinations then become "490 int + 2% max. mana" and "370 int + 3% crit damage", with the the crit damage now being a flat 1.03 multiplier and 220 intellect (the difference) being a 3-3.5% damage increase by SP/Crit alone. (You could stop right here, since this is more than the chaotic meta could ever do, which is capped at +3% damage at 100% crit chance, regardless of multipliers/masters/etc).

490 less 370 is 120, not 220 as your math indicates. I'm not sure if this is a typo or you actually used 220 in your calculations. Regardless, if you use 120, Ember is still better, just not by the huge margin you calculated.

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Old 11/09/10, 10:08 AM   #38
Nathyiel
Von Kaiser
 
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Goblin Mage
 
Sargeras (EU)
2 things:
First, Blood fury (orc) have been nerf to 584 spell power.


Second, I have made some calculation to compare Ember meta and Chaotic meta for the Frost spec and with Deep Freeze.

Deep Freeze's coefficient: 2.1431
frost spec: +25% (x1.25)
mastery (0 pt): +20% (x1.2)
Glyph of Deep Freeze: +20% (x1.2)
Crit coefficient: 200% (x3)

Total multiplier: 2.1431*1.25*1.2*1.2*3 = 11.57274
Total with Chaotic meta: 11.57274*1.03 = 11.9199222

For 5k spell power without meta: 5000*11.57274 = 57863.7
For 5k spell power with Ember meta: 5054*11.57274 = 58488.62796 (+624.9)
For 5k spell power with Chaotic meta: 5000*11.9199222 = 59599.611 (+1735.9 / +1111)

The difference is +1111 damages in favor of Chaotic. It's only +734 with 4k SP and +70 with 2k SP. For 8k SP, the difference jump above 2k damage (~2.1%). For reference, with 5k SP, the difference is only +271 damage for Ice Lance and +162 for Frostbolt (33% crit).


This can be explain by the Mastery, the number of crit due to Shatter and the poor coefficient of Frostbolt. The Chaotic meta and Piercing green gem can be useful to obtain the 33% crit cap.

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Old 11/10/10, 12:33 AM   #39
Venthos
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Turalyon
However, Frost is also the spec that is most mana efficient. It also benefits quite a bit from crit damage, as its main procs have a 3x chance to crit.

Fire might be more even, as it's been having some mana issues, and Arcane could easily lean towards ember.

It's too bad that the Insightful cut didn't make it into Cataclysm, but it's probably because all healers benefit from spirit now.

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Old 11/11/10, 7:52 PM   #40
Thazzdingo
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Norgannon (EU)
I was quite busy this week, so I just quick-edited the OP without mentioning it in the thread itself. I just quote the current "Latest Changes" here, that are mostly the topics discussed in the latest posts. An exception is the new Raidbuff overview - make sure to have a look at this one, too. Correct me if I'm missing any caster relevant buffs entirely or in a specific Spec.

Originally Posted by Thazzdingo View Post
Latest Changes
- Updated Orc Racial (584 SP instead of 1485)
- Added green gems
- Water Elemental Crit Dmg Multiplier is now 200% instead of 150%
- Reworked the Raid Buff overview (I'm not sure what to do with the "other" category yet)
- Added Off-Hand Enchant, Updated Leg Enchant (now 95 Int & 80 Stamina instead of 60 Int & 45 Stamina)
- Removed Chaotic Skyflare Diamond because of the new gem requirements for Chaotic Diamonds (more blue than red gems instead of more blue than yellow ones)

Edit: The Spell Coefficient table is still outdated. If someone has time to spare...

Last edited by Thazzdingo : 11/11/10 at 8:00 PM.

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Old 11/12/10, 4:00 AM   #41
f1reburn
Piston Honda
 
Troll Mage
 
Scarshield Legion (EU)
Even though the mouse over still says that Springy Arachnoweave adds 27 spellpower, on the actual Cata wowhead link the spellpower part is removed. It would make sense since Blizzard doesn't like it when people use enchants from the previous expansion, and the fact that no new cloak tinkers have been released.

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Old 11/15/10, 6:29 PM   #42
Alinth
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
Proudmoore
Profession Bonuses Question

When looking at the Professions in their current form, its looking like Engineering + Tailoring is the strongest DPS combo for a Mage atm, but with mana issues, current level combat ratings, etc,

Would Professions that give bonuses of static Int increases like Enchanting, JC, LWing, be more beneficial at lower tier levels then proc based profession perks like Engi and tailoring?

I haven't Raided on the Beta at all yet, so im not sure exactly how things are feeling on there for us.

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Old 11/16/10, 3:05 AM   #43
Nathyiel
Von Kaiser
 
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Goblin Mage
 
Sargeras (EU)
Just like for race, profession's bonuses is relativly equal to +80 sp. But each will be valuate differently in regard of spec, play style or guilde's optimisation.
  • Engineering is the most useful in terme of utility.
  • Jewelcrafting and Enchanting is better for optimisation.
  • Herbalism is great for Arcane because of the haste CD.
  • Etc.

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Old 11/16/10, 5:10 PM   #44
Guac
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
Hyjal
Regarding Tailoring vs other professions, it's important to keep in mind that the +int professions will also benefit from Blessing of Kings or MoTW in nearly every raid while Tailoring won't. With this in mind and adding Wizardry, if comparing a profession that adds 80 int and uses the 50 int cloak enchant, that profession would provide 130*1.05*1.05=143.325 int compared to the Tailoring proc. Tailoring would provide roughly 1.7 more spell power (145 vs 143.325) assuming the proc is up exactly 25% of the time, but it would lose out on 143.325/648.91=0.22% crit and 143.325*15=2149 mana.

Looking at it from that point of view, Tailoring looks like a weak profession compared the other ones, however Tailoring benefits from the proc coming early on in the once per minute that it can go off. In other words, on a 40 second fight you're pretty much assured that the proc will be up 15 of the 40 seconds or 37.5% uptime. On a 1 minute, 30 second fight you're likely to have it up for 30 of the 90 seconds or 33.3%. As the fight gets longer the actual uptime falls closer to the 25% mark but it's more likely that it'll come in just above 25% than it might fall below that mark. There is also factoring in the possibility of Lightweave being stacked with other cds, for example if happens to proc during a Bloodlust or is used with Combustion or Arcane Power it's value would be raised but if not used with those buffs it's value would be reduced.

Unless my math is off, it seems like Tailoring is slightly weaker than an 80 int profession in general, but has the potential to be stronger as fights get shorter and depending on how well it can be stacked with other cds.

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Old 11/16/10, 6:02 PM   #45
Nathyiel
Von Kaiser
 
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Goblin Mage
 
Sargeras (EU)
For a plain Int bonus, we can go for Jewelcrafting/Enchant combo for a total of +161 Int (~177 int with Wizardry and Might). It take place of no other enchant and can be very optimized. It also can be Alchemy or Inscription.

In the other hand, the proc from Tailoring/Engineering scale pretty good with burst phase, especially in the opening where all proc and CD is up at the same time. But it can be pretty chaotic in a moving fight with the loss of proc.

For me, the better solutions is to mix a plain Int bonus with a proc.

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