Arcane in Cataclysm: Updated for 4.01 - Page 15

croc181 · 12/02/10, 1:01 PM

Since the latest patch I've noticed that my threat sky rockets with even the first Arcane Blast. Furthermore I've noticed that my mirror images no longer defer my threat until they are gone, infact there is no reduction in threat when I pop them. Something has to be wrong, I'm used to enjoying that 20 seconds of no threat, and then invis'ng when they disappear since I get all the built up threat back. What did Blizzard do ?!?

tenub · 12/03/10, 12:02 PM

It's 30 seconds and Mirror Image works just fine for me.

Shaitans · 12/03/10, 12:25 PM

The problem with Mirror Images under the current build is that Omen does not indicate what your threat will be once the images disappear. Beforehand, you would have some indication of how high your threat is before they disappeared and could act appropriately (perhaps not even invis at all). Now, you should just assume that your threat will be ridiculous and invis with 3-5 seconds left before the images disappear.

I have also noticed that my threat is hugely disproportionate just based on the first AB cast. However, I know that I am (and I wonder if you are as well) using PoM for that first AB which is almost garaunteeing me a crit for that first cast in an instant. So that is probably the proper explanation.

Light4 · 12/03/10, 2:01 PM

Well that is strange. I have the most recent version of omen (3.1.0) and it is not only showing me MI threat, but also has a timer for it integrated as well as timers on tank threat coming from misdirection.
I also noticed the problem with pulling thread on the first few AB casts, but that is more a tank issue than broken mechanics (I start off with AB to 89% mana, then AP/Gem/MI). However, it may be lag but I had troubles with the AP glyph since last patch.

Kyriani · 12/04/10, 5:15 AM

Currently, due to the 4pc tier bonus, I use the damage buff timer as a gauge to let me know when to invis so I can dps as much as possible with impunity and then dump that threat at the last second. This makes watching omen unnecessary since the threat would be gone just as the duration of MI ended. Losing that buff to track the timing will certainly take some getting used to in Cataclysm. I must admit I haven't updated my Omen in some time. If it now tracks MI's duration that would be most helpful in Cataclysm.

Megagun · 12/04/10, 7:09 AM

Sounds like more of a glitch with the MI there, croc181; it's working fine for myself and other mages that I know. Remember that they do not reduce your threat; it's still there, plain for the eye to see, but my understanding of it is that it is divided between your mirrors, meaning you, in the bosses eyes, have 1/4 the threat that you're generating. I can't test that theory as I have yet to encounter a tank that I have quadruple the threat over. If you do pull off the tank before hitting MI, you'll still have aggro until the tank hits that 130% magic number; during which, you have a 1-in-4 chance of the boss coming and one-shotting you.

We have to remember that all tanks ability to create aggro was nerfed recently, and if you're timing an AB to hit before the tank has even touched it, then you'll most certainly pull aggro, even with a non-crit. Depending on the tank, you may find that even delaying your attacks by half a second, you may still pull with a lucky crit.

Yes, I too was having a bit of trouble with the whole 'inivisible threat' issue, but if the new version of Omen is out and has it back on the charts, like Light4 has said, it should be solved. Shaitans was bang on the dot here though; the main reason we need it is to see if we need to use Invisibility at all, or if we can get away with squeezing that last second out of the 4pc bonus, without pulling. (Do-able for less well-equipped mages.)

Originally Posted by Shaitans

...I know that I am (and I wonder if you are as well) using PoM for that first AB which is almost garaunteeing me a crit for that first cast in an instant.

I know the idea of an instant cast from the off for a little bit of extra time and to get PoM on CD sounds like a good idea, but surely are you not better saving it for your first burn phase, seconds after this? An instant cast and +15% crit x2 sounds far more appealing to me just after AP runs out, with the +18% damage still up and possibly even a stacked DFO proc, or a CTS proc? Personally I'm still running around with the Talisman of Resurgence, meaning I have ~5 seconds of extra SP to slot that into just after AP runs out.

If you really want that extra crit so badly on the pull, not even during a burn, sure, you can use PoM, dismiss it, wait ~1.2mins, and then carry on as normal; be my guest. But as has already been discussed, initial aggro is an issue, and you really want to get that 4x AB stack up, before you start your burn, as soon as possible.

Mangara · 12/04/10, 1:15 PM

If you're using DBM, you can also use this macro for MI timing:

#showtooltip
/cast Mirror Image
/dbm timer 30 Mirror Image

Venthos · 12/05/10, 2:57 AM

How would [Tyrande's Favorite Doll] be for Arcane? At first glance, the mana restore seems rather nice, as well as dealing Arcane damage as an added bonus. It also has a fairly short cooldown, allowing it to be used in every burn phase.

However, does the mana restore (and the damage) stack up with other trinkets? Would something that just gives the normal mix of secondary stats be better, as it only stores 4200 mana?

Roywyn · 12/05/10, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Venthos

How would [Tyrande's Favorite Doll] be for Arcane?

The mana restoration is 4200/60 = 70 MPS. Arcane Burns 1900 MPS, so that's 4% more Mana to spend, or 28k Mana over 7 minutes. That would prolong one of your AB burn phases by 1/3 over a 7 minute fight. It's not really that much, considering that the mana:damage conversion of AB is usually pretty bad. Also, compared to Shard of Woe's 420 base mana reduction, it's really a tiny amount of mana.

Let's look at it from another angle - this trinket does 4200 damage and 4200 mana per minute. Theralion's Mirror does 50k damage per proc. Even it if procced only ever other minute, it would require a 5:1 damage-to-mana conversion rate for Tyrande's Favourite Doll ot break even, which is not going happen anytime soon.

Since [Tyrande's Favorite Doll] is bound to account and acquired via archeology, you can try it out if you get it and mail it to a healer alt when it's worse than your other trinkets.

Nerdling · 12/10/10, 9:34 AM

I think I can add some light to the issue's with MI atm.

What I have found and confirmed via multiple tests is with a single Target MI's appear to be acting as there were before. However something seems to have changed if there is more than one target, that includes ghost targets that mirrors attack but don't appear on screen sometimes.

The Threat reduction/deferment is one against the target the mirrors are attacking. That is the target that you have most threat against as a percentage when mirrors are activated and should switch to whichever target you have highest threat against if the initial target dies before the mirrors expire.

However what is now working differently is that if you have multiple targets then the mirrors only defer the threat against the target that they are attacking so say for example your have highest threat against a mob (as a percentage) but then over agro on the boss. The mirrors will be attacking the mob and so will not be deferring the agro from the boss. The same happens if you pull multiple adds, you can no longer pop mirrors to buy space/time against all of them. The mirrors will only attack one of the mobs which will begin to attack them but the other mobs will come after you until the mob the mirrors are attacking dies.

I'm not sure when it was introduced I've only become aware of it since 4.03a but the change could have been prior to that. I've not yet been able to find out if the change is intended or not.

Trisilla · 12/12/10, 5:24 AM

Tyrian posted the order of combat ratings for Fire mages as:
1. Intellect
2. Hit
3. Spellpower
4. Crit
4. Mastery
5. Haste

Is the order different for Arcane mages with the new expansion? Can someone post the order for Arcane please?

Ektoplasme · 12/13/10, 4:30 AM

The exact order for arcane depends on your specific gear. But for example with BiS Preraid blue gear and BiS ilvl 359 epic gear, here are the scaling factors as given by the latest version of simcraft:

Mage_Arcane_PreRaid
Int=2.6264
SP=1.7866
Hit=1.7285
Haste=1.1002
Mastery=0.9731
Crit=0.7354

Mage_Arcane_T11_359
Int=3.3041
Hit=2.3307
SP=2.0266
Mastery=1.0926
Haste=1.0355
Crit=0.9130

Zaldinar · 12/13/10, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by Nerdling

However what is now working differently is that if you have multiple targets then the mirrors only defer the threat against the target that they are attacking so say for example your have highest threat against a mob (as a percentage) but then over agro on the boss. The mirrors will be attacking the mob and so will not be deferring the agro from the boss. The same happens if you pull multiple adds, you can no longer pop mirrors to buy space/time against all of them. The mirrors will only attack one of the mobs which will begin to attack them but the other mobs will come after you until the mob the mirrors are attacking dies.

Do you have this effect confirmed through the API? Or just through mob behavior observation?

emmjay12 · 12/14/10, 11:03 AM

In all honesty how viable is arcane going to be come T11 Raids? I'm already starting to notice a severe discrepancy in my DPS from where other classes seem to be. Is fire going to be better for total damage output until better gear is released?

Lylandra · 12/14/10, 11:14 AM

If Lhivera's simcrafts are correct (and I do think so), then Arcane will need some serious tweaking in order to be "viable" - it falls back heavily even in "static" fights once you are T 11 geared and things get worse when Adds/movement are around.