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Old 12/03/10, 2:41 PM   #16
Dejah-Thoris
Von Kaiser
 
Human Mage
 
Whisperwind
MoE refunds 30% of the base cost of a spell. It doesn't matter if the spell is free (like with Clearcasting) or if it costs extra (Arcane Blast stacked). So a crit with a spell while Clearcasting is a mana gain.

The base cost of Pyroblast! is 0, so we get nothing back from MoE. It probably should have a base cost equal to Pyroblast's, with HS making it free in the same way Clearcasting does. A Hot Streak Pyroblast! should refund mana with MoE.

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Old 12/03/10, 2:50 PM   #17
dedmonwakeen
Bald Bull
 
dedmonwakeen
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
Master of Elements support has been updated in SimC revision r5904 to proc on "free" spells. It will also proc on Living Bomb explosions.


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Old 12/03/10, 3:34 PM   #18
Maje
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Mage
 
Naxxramas (EU)
Thank you looks to be working ok now, the only issue for fire I know of at the moment is the interaction between Critical Mass and Mastery as in they stack additively.

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Old 12/03/10, 4:12 PM   #19
Silverwind
Von Kaiser
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Antonidas (EU)
I've been able to improve the Arcane rotation a bit (~800 dps) by:

- Making sure the sim doesn't spam AB until OOM, instead it stops spamming at 25% mana and evo's back up.
- Trying to end the fight at zero mana by spamming AB in the last 20s of a fight, as well as using all cooldowns that pop up in that phase. This works most of the time, except when the end of a burn phase happens to be at <20s before the end. The sim can run OOM some seconds too soon in that case. I don't really know how to prevent this.
- Using cooldowns only at 3 or more stacks. Seems like a small DPS gain.
- Using PoM + AB every cooldown. Another small DPS gain.

The new mana timeline looks like ~80% average mana over the whole fight (7m in this case):


Here's the data:
Click Here ← Click Here
actions=flask,type=draconic_mind
actions+=/food,type=seafood_magnifique_feast
actions+=/focus_magic
actions+=/arcane_brilliance
actions+=/mage_armor
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=!in_combat
actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=40
actions+=/counterspell
actions+=/mirror_image
actions+=/arcane_power,if=target.time_to_die<20
actions+=/arcane_power,if=cooldown.evocation.remains<16&&buff.arcane_blast.stack>=3
actions+=/mana_gem,if=target.time_to_die<20
actions+=/mana_gem,if=cooldown.evocation.remains<16&&buff.arcane_blast.stack>=3
actions+=/presence_of_mind,arcane_blast
actions+=/arcane_blast,if=target.time_to_die<20
actions+=/arcane_blast,if=buff.clearcasting.react&buff.arcane_blast.stack>=2
actions+=/arcane_blast,if=(cooldown.evocation.remains<16&&mana_pct>25)|mana_pct>94|buff.arcane_ blast.stack<3
actions+=/evocation,if=target.time_to_die>=25
actions+=/arcane_missiles
actions+=/arcane_barrage
actions+=/fire_blast,moving=1
actions+=/ice_lance,moving=1
The BiS lists could use some work (like using Crown of the Twilight Queen as off-piece to T11, and maybe Shard of Woe instead of the crit trinket), is there some tool to create these or are they edited by hand?

edit: forum seems to be messing with the code, delete the space in "buff.arcane_ blast.stack<3"

Last edited by Silverwind : 12/03/10 at 7:10 PM.

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Old 12/03/10, 4:42 PM   #20
Lhivera
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Aggramar
I'll put your rules into the profile when I get home - I should be able to prevent the OOM issue as well. Thanks!

Edit:

Updated the source file and the profiles with Maje's changes to Fire priority list and Silverwind's changes to Arcane. Also implemented conditions for casting Molten and Mage Armor, which allowed me to have Frost switch from Molten to Mage at 15% mana. It will never switch back, and will evocate if mana drops below 5%. It can go literally forever like this, and it gains some 60-80 DPS in the five-minute encounter.

Last edited by Lhivera : 12/03/10 at 10:32 PM.

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Old 12/03/10, 10:34 PM   #21
Jaerel
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Kalecgos
Originally Posted by Lhivera View Post
I'm currently running the sims with the option "aura_delay=0.150" which causes the sim to model both the tick-munching bug and the tick-rolling bug, so it is currently not behaving as if it's been fixed.

There was a fix to Hot Streak yesterday that was causing it to have a chance to trigger on a single Scorch crit. Not currently aware of anything else that's going on, but I'll keep looking.

ETA: Are you looking at Hot Streaks from my output, or are you running the sim yourself? If running it yourself, are you building from the latest source in the repository, or from the release? If you're using last week's release, there are many fixes that have made since that you're not seeing in your results.

I guess I'm either confusing the issue by calling both behaviors munching or if the .150 is meant to handle the refresh lockout ignite loss then it's performing poorly at high crit frequency. There should be a condition in the sim that an ignite with a duration >4 seconds cannot be refreshed, and any crits that occur while ignites duration is >4 seconds generate 0 ignite damage. Its definitely alive and well on live servers and its a pretty dramatic effect even at this first tier stat level (you'd lose ~15-25+% of the ignite damage that you'd expect, worse in the cases where ffb & scorch see heavy usage, whereas last I checked I think the sim is reporting <5% loss).


As far as hot streak goes, I had been looking at your couple days old outputs but the most recent fix seems to have brought it mostly in line with what I'd been seeing/estimating.

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Old 12/05/10, 9:41 AM   #22
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
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Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Silverwind View Post
I've been able to improve the Arcane rotation a bit (~800 dps) by [...]
Something that I haven't figured out yet is the DPS Timeline. It is obviously an average, but is it taken over a time frame, a weighted time frame, over the iterations (does not look like that to me)?


What I cannot see from the graphs alone is whether Arcane Blast spam at 25% is better or worse than the Conservation Cycle at 95%. And if it is better, then by how much?

More important and more general is the following question: When ignoring Mana Adept, how does the damage D_AB := 1s of AB spam + Xs of Evocation (the mana needed for 1 spammed AB) compare to D_CS := (1+X)s of Conservation Cycle? (Here, more max. mana improves both parts - it shortens Evocation time and allows for a more powerful Conservation Cycle.) Once we have this damage ratio, we can calculate how much Mana Adept A% and current mana M% we need such that (1+A%*M%)*D_AB is more damage than (1+A%*95%)*D_CS.

This allows us to find out (given a certain amount of Mastery) whether we should drain our mana with AB spam down to 25% or whether we should stop at 40% and save one tick of Evocation. AB damage, AB mana, AB cast time, Mana Adept, etc. are just too many non-linear mechanics to determine this in general.


[Edit]: Thanks for the info. I'd like to point out another potential issue than is not fixed by smaller time slices. Image one iteration with a burn phase from 0:10 to 0:30 and a second iteration with a burn phase from 0:20 to 0:40, both followed by 5s Evocation. Averaging those two, you get a semi-burn from 0:10 to 0:20, a full burn from 0:20 to 0:30. From 0:30 to 0:35 your average mana goes up to 60% while being at half burn DPS, then drops as a semi-burn from 0:35 to 0:40 and goes up to 95% from 0:40 to 0:45 with half-conserving DPS.

We're calculating the average performance per timeslice, but the more interisting data is actually the average time at which the mana bar drops to a certain value. I don't think it's a real issue for right now since we have a lot of iterations and the mana timelines look really good. Just something to keep in mind when reading those graphs and what they mean.

Last edited by Roywyn : 12/05/10 at 11:18 AM.

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

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Old 12/05/10, 10:11 AM   #23
dedmonwakeen
Bald Bull
 
dedmonwakeen
Undead Priest
 
No WoW Account
The timelines in SimC are a bit mushy.

The course of a fight is sliced into 1sec buckets. Every time damage is done, resource is consumed, or current resource is monitored, the value is added into the appropriate time-slice. This is a running total over all iterations.

When the sim is finished iterating, the value at each time-slice is divided by the number of iterations.

The DPS timeline is populated by looking at the damage done over the period Time-10sec to Time+10sec (subject to bounds).

EDIT: Roywyn, I like seeing those graphs vertically stacked. I'll change the output so that is the norm.

EDIT2: We had a long-standing Issue in which the tail end of graphs bottomed-out do to varying fight lengths. This has been resolved with r5947.

Last edited by dedmonwakeen : 12/05/10 at 1:32 PM.


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Old 12/05/10, 1:25 PM   #24
Shaewyn
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Mage
 
Malygos
Originally Posted by Roywyn View Post
This allows us to find out (given a certain amount of Mastery) whether we should drain our mana with AB spam down to 25% or whether we should stop at 40% and save one tick of Evocation. AB damage, AB mana, AB cast time, Mana Adept, etc. are just too many non-linear mechanics to determine this in general.
Does the behaviour of Evocation change after level 80? At level 80, it is only returning 60% total, not 75%. The arcane thread concurs with this - it would appear that the tooltip ingame is incorrect. This would change your stop values to 55% (skipping one tick) and 40% (using full Evocation).


[Edit:] Ahh, apologies. Because the numbers matched up with the incorrect tooltip numbers, I made a quick assumption and forgot about mage armor/replenishment.

Last edited by Shaewyn : 12/05/10 at 7:42 PM.

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Old 12/05/10, 2:16 PM   #25
Roywyn
Bald Bull
 
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Roywyn
Gnome Mage
 
No WoW Account (EU)
Originally Posted by Shaewyn View Post
Does the behaviour of Evocation change after level 80? At level 80, it is only returning 60% total, not 75%. The arcane thread concurs with this - it would appear that the tooltip ingame is incorrect. This would change your stop values to 55% (skipping one tick) and 40% (using full Evocation).
The behaviour doesn't change, going from 40% to 100% is fine in a world without mana regeneration. But you have Mage Armour, base MP5, BoM and Replenishment ticking while you cast Evocation and your first two Arcane Blasts, maybe even three if Clearcasting procs. That can easily go up to 10% of your mana, which is why you go down to ~25% before using Evocation as Arcane spec.

Chaotic Meta Gems in Cataclysm: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t106009-...2/#post1794256

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput
The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

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Old 12/08/10, 3:58 AM   #26
Nathyiel
Von Kaiser
 
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Goblin Mage
 
Sargeras (EU)
I am wondering why in all the frost test your not crit capped? Is it because of SimC config? Because in both 359 and 379, it can be possible to obtain the crit cap whithout Molten Armor.
I have made a proposal for a 372 Frost BiS here.

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Old 12/08/10, 5:49 AM   #27
Power
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Mal'Ganis (EU)
Simulationcraft

Frost with Frostfirebolt as filler seems to be quite good (~100 DPS less then normal Frost):
- Replace Frostbolt glyph with Icelance glyph.
- Cast Frostbolt when Early Frost is up.

Click Here ← Click Here
glyphs=ice_lance/deep_freeze/frostfire
actions=flask,type=draconic_mind
actions+=/food,type=seafood_magnifique_feast
actions+=/arcane_brilliance
actions+=/molten_armor,if=buff.mage_armor.down&buff.molten_armor.down
actions+=/water_elemental
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=!in_combat
actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|buff.icy_veins.react|target.time_to_die<=40
actions+=/counterspell
actions+=/mana_gem,if=mana_deficit>12500
actions+=/cold_snap,if=cooldown.deep_freeze.remains>15&cooldown.frostfire_orb.remains>30&cooldo wn.icy_veins.remains>30
actions+=/frostfire_orb
actions+=/mirror_image
actions+=/icy_veins,if=time>5&buff.icy_veins.down&buff.bloodlust.down
actions+=/deep_freeze
actions+=/frostfire_bolt,if=buff.brain_freeze.react&buff.fingers_of_frost.react
actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.stack>1
actions+=/ice_lance,if=buff.fingers_of_frost.react&pet.water_elemental.cooldown.freeze.remains< gcd
actions+=/mage_armor,if=mana_pct<15
actions+=/evocation,if=mana_pct<5&target.time_to_die>60
actions+=/frostbolt,if=buff.early_frost.down
actions+=/frostfire_bolt

actions+=/ice_lance,moving=1
actions+=/fire_blast,moving=1

Edit:
This was done with simc-403-7. It seems Version 403-9 broke the Early Frost Function.

Edit2:
My Fault. Version 403-9 no longer has Early Frost in the BIS Frost Sim.

Last edited by Power : 12/08/10 at 8:49 AM.

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Old 12/08/10, 8:01 AM   #28
Lhivera
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Aggramar
Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
I am wondering why in all the frost test your not crit capped? Is it because of SimC config? Because in both 359 and 379, it can be possible to obtain the crit cap whithout Molten Armor.
I have made a proposal for a 372 Frost BiS here.
The set I'm using in the simulations crit-caps Ice Lance due to the set bonus. Reforging or regemming to shift additional haste or mastery to crit consistently reduces the final numbers. That doesn't necessarily mean the set can't be improved, but shifting crit doesn't seem to improve it.

Power: that action list would almost never hard-cast Frostfire Bolt; it would cast Frostbolt unless you had Early Frost, not if you had Early Frost. Change that line to:

actions+=/frostbolt,if=buff.early_frost.react

A quick run here puts it around 500 DPS lower than using Frostbolt filler.

Last edited by Lhivera : 12/08/10 at 8:07 AM.

At Veridian Dynamics, we can even make radishes so spicy, people can't eat them. But we're not, because people can't eat them.

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Old 12/08/10, 8:42 AM   #29
Power
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Mal'Ganis (EU)
Lhivera:
My action list casts 17 Frostbolts in a 300s fight. Your action list casts 0.

PS: Version 403-9 no longer has Early Frost in the BIS Frost Sim.

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Old 12/08/10, 9:18 AM   #30
Nathyiel
Von Kaiser
 
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Goblin Mage
 
Sargeras (EU)
Originally Posted by Lhivera View Post
The set I'm using in the simulations crit-caps Ice Lance due to the set bonus. Reforging or regemming to shift additional haste or mastery to crit consistently reduces the final numbers. That doesn't necessarily mean the set can't be improved, but shifting crit doesn't seem to improve it.
I have forgot that it's also a 200 spell power loss. After a bit of reflexion, if I put Food and Flask in consideration, I can obtain: 7175 ps, 1737 hit, 1204 haste, 2170 crit and 921 mastery (by reforging/regemming). I can also add +160 Intel form Enchant/Jewel. Theoricaly, With Crit > Haste, this stuff could be a dps increase.

edit: Fro the FB/FFB discussion, what about hard casting FFB for refreshing the 3 stacked DOT ?

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