Cataclysm Fire Mage Compendium - Page 13

Kvaern · 01/12/11, 4:48 AM

Originally Posted by durianboss

Thanks for correcting that. That doesn't this raise and issue on how are we gonna deal with the additional mana since they lower the cost of FB and LB. The what seems obvious answer now is haste to burn those mana.

This makes no sense. Haste is still going to be our worst stat, even more now than ever.
The effect it will have is that that we'll cast more fireballs and less scorches, which is also a significant DPS increase.

Kastor · 01/12/11, 6:55 AM

Originally Posted by Frostedblaze

Someone asked this on my guide on the WoW forums, and after doing some math I was surprised:

Some less hardcore mages who don't wanna throw out 5k+ for the Power Infusion weapon enchant had been using the Hurricane weapon enchant instead, however, I believe the +63 spell power enchant from wrath would be better.

Hurricane has a chance of granting 450 Haste for 12 seconds with a 45 second internal cooldown. Also, please note that this test does NOT count the 15% chance to proc hurricane, which would only add to the amount of time it is NOT up.

450 haste every 12/57 seconds.
450*(12/57)= 94.7368 haste * 1.2961= 122.78842

63 Spell Power * 2.5369= 159.8247

Also, the SP will be a static gain. Hurricane will (likely) not proc the instant the cooldown is up. This would also mean that the +81 spell power staff enchant would be better than hurricane as well.

Note: Please excuse me if I have made mistakes. I'm new around here.

You do not start to count the internal cooldown when the proc fades, instead when you get the procc, so Hurricane enchant averages 450*(12/45)=120 haste rating.
120*1.2961=155.532
It is not far behind, even if you count +2-3 sec for average proc interval.
Also with the 4.0.6. haste's value will probably go up slightly, because of cheaper mana costs (though I'm looking for evidence of this, I'm more of a mastery fan).

BeeLz · 01/12/11, 7:59 AM

Are the simcraft numbers on our mastery value counting in Ignite munching? If not, mastery might be rated too high?

Hibbo · 01/12/11, 10:25 AM

The gap between Fire and Frostfire is even bigger with the changes from the PTR.
Taken from Lhivera`s simcraft example BIS 372, basic, 300 seconds and no movement:

Live:
Simulationcraft Results

PTR:
Simulationcraft Results

Silverwind · 01/12/11, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by BeeLz

Are the simcraft numbers on our mastery value counting in Ignite munching? If not, mastery might be rated too high?

The simcraft ignite numbers are too high as discussed in the simcraft thread. Real logs from live show around 30-40% less ignite damage than the simulation because of ignite munching, which is worser than ever. This results in an loss of about ~5% damage overall. As far as I know, the correct modeling of ignite munching is still in progress.

Originally Posted by Postre

with the upcoming mastery buff, does anyone think frostfirebolt will out dps fire? right now its barely under fireball but if mastery buffs frostfire dot, will frostfire outdps fireball?

It could be possible in theory (if Blizzard also reduces the FFB mana cost like they have done for fireball). But a strong counterpoint is that FFB dot procs ignite, which can result in even more ignite munching, from which we suffer greatly already.

athenefrost · 01/12/11, 11:49 AM

Hi,

I'm a new fire mage and have been playing the spec for a few weeks now. I have some questions regarding rotations mainly the most efficient use of impact.

In most multi-target fights it makes more sense to me that I apply living bomb to one and use flametrike/blastwave/dragons breath to fish for an impact proc and then try get an ignite ticking on the target. Then I can spread all the dots including living bomb that way. Is this actually more effective ?

If you keep spamming impact (in a multi-target fight) at every opportunity does this make sense so long as you have an ignite rolling on your current target ? Also if I have an ignite on one target, use impact, it procs again and i use it twice on the same target while it still has ignite up will i effectively double the ignite dot on other targets for the remaining tick ?

In terms of single target fights do impact procs/normal fireblasts increase dps if just to help fish for a pyro and is this worth the extra mana cost?

Darguth · 01/12/11, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by athenefrost

Hi,

I'm a new fire mage and have been playing the spec for a few weeks now. I have some questions regarding rotations mainly the most efficient use of impact.

In most multi-target fights it makes more sense to me that I apply living bomb to one and use flametrike/blastwave/dragons breath to fish for an impact proc and then try get an ignite ticking on the target. Then I can spread all the dots including living bomb that way. Is this actually more effective ?

If you keep spamming impact (in a multi-target fight) at every opportunity does this make sense so long as you have an ignite rolling on your current target ? Also if I have an ignite on one target, use impact, it procs again and i use it twice on the same target while it still has ignite up will i effectively double the ignite dot on other targets for the remaining tick ?

In terms of single target fights do impact procs/normal fireblasts increase dps if just to help fish for a pyro and is this worth the extra mana cost?

As an extension of this question, this seems to be perhaps the more prudent route to go with a smaller group of mobs (2-3). Perform a variant single-target rotation where you initially fish for an Impact proc from Blastwave and Scorches, and then spread LB and any Ignites you have rolling as cleave-like damage.

My question is when does this alternate method need to be switch to full-blown, all-out AOE rotation scenario? 4-5+ mobs?

zurmagus · 01/12/11, 6:40 PM

Has anyone else noticed that the Pyromaniac bug seems to have been hotfixed in the last 24hrs?

I haven't adjusted my spec yet to verify it, but I am noticing that my casts time is increased compared to yesterday. For example when I hard cast Pyroblast now it takes 3.2 seconds (according to quartz) but yesterday it was 3.1 No changes to gear or anything.

I guess it was nice while it lasted.

Malcophant · 01/12/11, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by zurmagus

Has anyone else noticed that the Pyromaniac bug seems to have been hotfixed in the last 24hrs?

I haven't adjusted my spec yet to verify it, but I am noticing that my casts time is increased compared to yesterday. For example when I hard cast Pyroblast now it takes 3.2 seconds (according to quartz) but yesterday it was 3.1 No changes to gear or anything.

I guess it was nice while it lasted.

I can confirm, fireball is casting at 2.33s, with 3/3 NWP and 4.14% haste. If it were still bugged, I'd anticipate 2.5/(1.03*1.0414*1.05) or 2.220s, which happens to be my casting speed when I have DoTs up on 3 targets. I suppose blizzard will have a post soon confirming it, but it had to happen at some point.

Edit: In addition, when speccing out of pyromaniac, there is no change to any cast times.

Scottilol · 01/13/11, 2:00 AM

Originally Posted by Darguth

As an extension of this question, this seems to be perhaps the more prudent route to go with a smaller group of mobs (2-3). Perform a variant single-target rotation where you initially fish for an Impact proc from Blastwave and Scorches, and then spread LB and any Ignites you have rolling as cleave-like damage.

My question is when does this alternate method need to be switch to full-blown, all-out AOE rotation scenario? 4-5+ mobs?

As far as knowing the exact number of mobs you need to have to switch to an all out AOE rotation is hard to tell. That would be a hard set of numbers to crunch because of how many variables and the amount of RNG that go into fishing for ignite/impact procs. You state a pretty decent estimate. Five or six mobs would be my personal cutoff to where I would shift over to an all out AOE rotation. But use your head, take it boss by boss and use your best judgement.

What I can tell you for sure based off of my personal observations, is that during raiding, the question of "Which method should I use to take on these adds", will usually be pretty obvious. There is usually a good amount of adds (10+), or very few (1-3). Very, very rarely will you be faced with a sketchy amount of adds that will make your rotation questionable, so dont worry about it to much.

For example. Bosses such as Magmaw, Maloriak, and Halfus Wyrmbreaker all summon NUMEROUS adds that you would undoubtedly use your AOE rotation for (10+).

The only boss that comes to the top of my head in terms of a "sketchy" amount would be the Conclave of Wind. There are about ( 5 or 6?) of those flowers that are spawned by Anshal. I personally single target them and fish for ignite/impact procs because of how scattered they always seem to be.

While all this information only pertains to raiding, I'm aware that heroics are a whole new spectrum of possibilities. Six adds is a good cut off number to use your AOE rotation. Just make sure you will get the maximum efficiency out of your AOE. For example, always ask yourself...Are all the mobs stacked within my AOE radius? Is this string of AOE spells mana efficient in the long run for this boss fight?

Aelith · 01/13/11, 5:51 AM

I have a question about haste. Why the haste is so bad after the soft cap? I know the amount of haste required to have a second extra tick is much but haste also decreases our fireball cast time and fireball is the spell what does most damage? Less cast time = more dmg. Right? What I'm missing?

smoug · 01/13/11, 6:01 AM

Originally Posted by Aelith

I have a question about haste. Why the haste is so bad after the soft cap? I know the amount of haste required to have a second extra tick is much but haste also decreases our fireball cast time and fireball is the spell what does most damage? Less cast time = more dmg. Right? What I'm missing?

Less cast time = More mana problems. Int, Hit, Crit and Mastery all provide more damage without making our mana problems even bigger.

• Wizeowel · 01/13/11, 6:38 AM

Originally Posted by Scottilol

That would be a hard set of numbers to crunch because of how many variables and the amount of RNG that go into fishing for ignite/impact procs. You state a pretty decent estimate. Five or six mobs would be my personal cutoff to where I would shift over to an all out AOE rotation. But use your head, take it boss by boss and use your best judgement.

It's not so hard to figure out I think. You can use something like Rawr to show you how much your stuff hits for with different numbers of adds. In my case FBLBPyro rotation is doing just over 11k dps, or just less than 12kdps when 2 adds are getting hit by the LB explosion as well. Consider BW+FS is doing 18kdps even with only 3 adds. Living bomb is going to do 13k per GCD on each target just from the dot let alone the explosion on multiples, so that's maybe worth casting even with only 2 mobs next to each other. If you want to look at impact procs remember that fireblast itself does damage, so taking my numbers again: I'd only need to spread 7k worth of dps to make it worthwhile over FBLBPyro. So even just spreading a non-crit pyroblast dot would be a dps increase if there are total 3 targets, and a pyroblast ignite is certainly worth spreading.

The question is, since these are often only marginal gains, would it not be simpler to keep going with the FBLBPyro rotation? Having to monitor your ignites and impact takes some focus away, and you could just press your normal 3 buttons and watch out for standing in the fire instead. In this sense you are correct and it's better to wait until 5 adds before an "all out AOE". However, do bear in mind that the more things are ticking, the more that impact does proc, and the better gains you can get.

Maje · 01/14/11, 6:06 AM

For those who were wondering if Ignite is fixed on PTR, it is not, did a short test and Ignite munching is very much alive and kicking even when you scorch spam. I have short log excerpt to prove it, though it's trivial to do it, scorch spaming for 30 seconds is more than enough.

Scottilol · 01/14/11, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Wizeowel

The question is, since these are often only marginal gains, would it not be simpler to keep going with the FBLBPyro rotation? Having to monitor your ignites and impact takes some focus away, and you could just press your normal 3 buttons and watch out for standing in the fire instead. In this sense you are correct and it's better to wait until 5 adds before an "all out AOE". However, do bear in mind that the more things are ticking, the more that impact does proc, and the better gains you can get.

Focus is a big factor, but with the help of Combustionhelper, spreading a decent impact dosent require much attention.

Even if one wasn't using Combustionhelper, you don't need to make it complicated. Even if its just a living bomb that your spreading onto a few targets via impact, that's a big dps increase.