I'm sorry, I should've made myself more clear I suppose. Simcraft has an ignite model which proposes that ignite munching increases beyond a certain haste level, especially with 4PT11 speed bonus to fireballs, which ultimately devalues haste. I just wanted to say that there is nothing like this in Rawr, which means in cases when it values crit over haste it doesn't consider haste devaluation by increased ignite munching.

Firstly both Simcraft and Rawr value haste higher at the gear level we're talking about.

Secondly the Ignite munching model in Simcraft isn't directly related to haste, what I mean is that there might be some indirect relationship between haste and ignite munching but I would guess that the relatioship is tangential at best; the vast majority of the Ignite munching is due to Living Bomb and Pyroblast! ticking (and some fireball + p! sim.crits) I very much doubt there would be any decrease in valuation of haste simply due to Ignite munching.

I feel as though this may be a bit specific to mages that are either troll, herbalists, or possess an on use haste trinket. Through Wizeowel's guidance :-), I feel a bit enlightened after spending some time with haste values. Just to state the basics of haste...

Spell Duration / ( Base Tick Time / ( 1 + Haste % in decimal form)) = Total Number of Ticks Rounding Up

My newfound enlightenment is in regards to on use haste abilities and Combustion. It is my understanding that haste will not have any diminishing returns with dots and will provide more ticks as haste increases. Using the above formula, each 10% haste will give Combustion another tick. I advise updating the OP and reflecting how powerful these on use haste abilities can be when used in conjunction with Combustion, and even more importantly Impact.

I have not yet been able to find a way to sufficently model the value of trinkets such as [Heart of Ignacious] and their relative value for both single target and aoe situations.

Was looking over trinket choices, and i noticed something interesting.

As of right now this thread is saying the 2 BiS trinkets are Volcanic Deck (which is hard to argue against) and the Atramedes Trinket. I had a hard time thinking that this would be the case because this thread, and all caster threads to be honest preach "int is king", so why pass up an int trinket?!

Did the math comparing the normal versions, but the difference between the two would even greater if you added more intellect to the Mirror.

Following numbers are based of the "relative values" section of this thread.

359 Mirror - 321 int / 1926 Mastery proc (20 seconds / 2 min internal)

321 int's relative value = 1036,7016

321 Mastery's relative value = 394.4127

So the trinket's "relative value" dps wise is 1431.1143.

359 Bell - 321 crit / 1926 spell power proc (20 seconds / 2 min internal). And lets reforge the crit to hit, to give it the maximum value you can give an item (assuming you need hit, it is our best secondary stat).

128 hit's relative value = 314.8416

193 crit's relative value = 268.1928

321 Spell Power's Relative value = 761.0589

So the trinket's "relative value" dps wise is 1344.0933

Basically, Mirror > Bell, unless obviously you have 372 bell and 359 mirror blah blah. Just making a note because I personally was curious, and I thought I would share my findings. Also, DMC:V is our best trinket, considering it's 12 second's of 1600 int, on a 45 sec internal (which comes out to be over 400 int) and it still has mastery which can be reforged to hit. So unless you are in need of hit, I would use Mirror / DMC:V.

Hey Kavan, has anything changed specifically with Fire modeling between Rawr 4.0.19 and 4.0.16? With the exact same gear and setup, 4.0.16 recommends mostly gemming/reforging/etc. for crit whereas 4.0.19 recommends haste. Once again, these are with exact same gear/talent setup loaded directly from the armory.

Well the two most obvious changes would be Ignite Munching support and PTR changes added since 4.0.17.

@OP and other Haste>Crit followers

I don't see how Haste is favored over Crit even though the simulators suggest otherwise.

Tyrian I looked at your World of Logs from your raids on 2/8 and 2/9 and it would suggest the exact opposite. Dolcy's overall damage output is significantly higher than yours.

The other question is why hasn't any of the major EU guilds switched to this concept (Paragon, Method)? I don't necessarily think this is wrong I just don't see it in a live raid environment and it might just be situational. You say ignite munching is a major issue and contributes to a loss of DPS but the World of Logs raids say otherwise.

BTW thanks Tyrian for creating and organizing this compendium.

Be careful when viewing logs and drawing conclusions. It made me a little nervous when I realised a few people are doing this, because i'm not a good candidate to look at via WOL to try to make comparisons against. It might be ironic given that I wrote the OP, I know. But i'm also usually leading my raids, and my own performance often suffers noticeably when doing so. The difference in personal performance for many, between 'raid leader mode' and 'I can relax and focus on me mode' can be pretty high. I don't get to slip into the latter too often unfortunately, but that's one of the things many GM/RL's have to live with. Like many raid leaders, the former will manifest via making seemingly silly mistakes. (Such as forgetting to reapply LB, low uptime etc). And, like Wizeowl suggested - Dolcy indeed happens to be a multi-class Gladiator, and a strong player - not the sort you want to compare yourself with unless you're playing at your very best yourself.

This isn't really about "haste VS crit followers". Nobody has some sort of personal agenda they're trying to push. The OP is trying to convey the current findings, conclusions from tools many of us have been using for years now. A little skepticism or cynicism towards said findings can be a good thing, it starts debate and gets people talking.

I happened to PM dedmonwakeen earlier (responsible for Simulation Craft) and he commented there was a spike of Simulation Craft downloads in the last 24 hours, since the new Rawr/SimC section of the OP was made. If the current Haste/Crit state of affairs has encouraged curious/skeptical people to whip into shape and finally get around to learning how to use these tools, or trying new ones - that's a good thing. I am thrilled to see a thread like this pop up on the Official Forums, for example: What are you getting for 4.0.6 simcraft value - Forums - World of Warcraft . Also, I'm confident that "Ignite Munching" has been much more thoroughly exposed to the community - people who previously were unaware or didn't understand it. More players can be seen making comments like, "Haste might be better than Crit for some - but you have to check XXX as it varies depending on your gear". The latter part of that sentence is the best part.

At the end of the day, the OP will continue to be updated with whatever the latest research and conclusions suggest from our leading players and trusted tools. dedmonwakeen was initially anxious about the Ignite Munching/Crit changes in SimC, people knew they would be met with skepticism and cause a little controversy. But you know what? The "Haste<>Crit" state of affairs so far, strangely enough, I think has actually been a gift to the community.

People are talking. People are educating themselves and asking questions, because people want answers. People are seeking answers from highly respected tools. All of that is a good thing for the greater community as we move forward.

I have searched for this specific advice in this thread and couldn't find it so I thought I should bring this up.

The OP has a great summary of when you should use combustion (as in you should have LB and ignite at the very least, it's even better to delay combustion until you get an ignite, etc. etc.). I just wanted to add from my own experience that it's also better that you don't use combustion when flame orb is up on the target. The biggest reason for this is, you guessed it, ignite munching. When you see a big fireball crit going off, between the time you cast combustion, it is more than likely that the ignite could be munched by a close-simultaneous tick crit from the flame orb. I noticed that I was getting significantly higher overall combustion damage when I mutually excluded flame orb and combustion. You already have LB running constantly on the mob, you don't want to add another source of possible munching until you fire up your combustion.

The mirror has a 10% proc rate, the bell is 20%. Both have an ICD of 100 seconds.

I got a warning last time I posted here for begging, I sincerely hope this doesn't land me int he same situation because it's not my intention.

With regards to Ignite munching, Blizzard said that they were going to try and fix this by rolling up the damage lost to the next ignite. So for example if ignite is running and is overwritten by another ignite, the lost damage that would have resulted had the original ignite ran its full duration, would then be calculated and added to the next ignite, and so on and so forth.

Im not the greatest with all these mathy calculations you guys do here, I read your advice and try to understand it as best I can, but is this change something that the developers of rawr/simC, or even the players who calculate all these numbers, have noticed?

Can't find the blue post now but it was flagged up on mmo forums:

Ignite Munch Fixed!!