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Old 12/11/10, 8:06 AM   #16
Tyrian
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Frostmourne
That's a nifty feature, it'll come in very handy. I'd love to see Combustionhelper also get one additional feature which would be hugely useful: Ability to track which type of Ignite is on the target: Scorch, Fireball or Pyroblast. You mentioned you were working on this, but having difficulty implementing it?

The OP will be updated later tonight after my raid with a section for Simulationcraft, looks like it's almost out of beta (DPS values are changing very little with each improvement now) and the page has been cleaned up nicely: Simulationcraft Results .

We also need to improve the section on good Flame Orb use. People who've done heroics or raids now will have noticed that sometimes it gets stuck on seemingly-flat terrain, or due to sudden boss movement or mis-aiming, misses the boss completely and despawns, break CC, and sometimes attacks things when you shouldnt (eg Tron Council Shields).

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Old 12/11/10, 10:24 AM   #17
 Wizeowel
old and slow
 
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Human Mage
 
Nordrassil (EU)
Originally Posted by angayelle View Post
On this topic, i added on the latest version a warning for early Living Bomb refresh along with recap of how many early refresh done for the fight, which is rather useful to improve playstyle.
I noticed this new feature last night, and it's pretty cool, but when there is actual AoE to do, then it tells me I'm refreshing even though I'm doing the LBs on different mobs. The Scorchio2 addon it's able to track separate LBs, maybe you can see how they do that and adjust CombustionHelper?

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Old 12/11/10, 11:44 AM   #18
Naqaj
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
Originally Posted by Tyrian View Post
That's a nifty feature, it'll come in very handy. I'd love to see Combustionhelper also get one additional feature which would be hugely useful: Ability to track which type of Ignite is on the target: Scorch, Fireball or Pyroblast. You mentioned you were working on this, but having difficulty implementing it?
How exactly would that work? How would you classify an Ignite that was started by a Pyroblast, but since then added a Scorch? Isn't the value of the Ignite ticks the only measurement of consequence?

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Old 12/11/10, 1:07 PM   #19
Tyrian
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Frostmourne
How exactly would that work? How would you classify an Ignite that was started by a Pyroblast, but since then added a Scorch? Isn't the value of the Ignite ticks the only measurement of consequence?
As for how it could work or whether it's even possible, I don't know. That's up to smart coders and the mod author to attempt to figure out.

But for us as players, it's a feature we'd love to see. (Ideally it would tell us how much Combustion would tick for, if used X moment). We'd love to know whether our current ignites on a target stemmed from (or included) Fireball or Pyroblast crits. Impact Combustion is incredibly powerful for AOE when you pull it off correctly, this will help make it easier for us to do that. In addition, even for single target DPS we'd ideally like to catch Fireball or Pyroblast crits when using Combustion.

If anyone notices raid encounter rooms where Flame Orb behaves incorrect or oddly, please note them here. They'll eventually be included into the OP.

I did several bosses tonight as Fire and Frost. Halfus Wyrmbreaker (With Whelps) is an excellent example of an opportunity to showcase Fires superior AOE power and Mobility. Impact, Impact Combustion and Pyromaniac all see extensive use - and allow Fire mages to excel on this encounter. Timing your Combustions perfectly is a big part of it. Omnitron Council has an opportunity (on Toxicron) for favourable AOE conditions when the Poison Bombs are up as well.

Vontre, should we be using Blastwave on CD (talented with Improved Flamestrike) whenever only 2 mobs are present?

I'm curious how [Shard of Woe] (Sinestra) might affect Fire dps
This is going to be an important question to answer. Hopefully soon we can get an answer pinned down.

Last edited by Tyrian : 12/11/10 at 1:37 PM.

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Old 12/11/10, 1:32 PM   #20
Vontre
Mr. Sandman
 
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Vontre
Gnome Mage
 
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Originally Posted by Tyrian View Post
Vontre, should we be using Blastwave on CD (talented with Improved Flamestrike) whenever only 2 mobs are present?
Pretty sure yes. I haven't paid a ton of attention to how that works but assuming you just add together the damage of Flamestrike and Blast Wave that would easily annihilate our single target dps rotation, timers and all. Assuming you get the dot ticks, anyway. Might even be one target, although there's some additional "cast time" to consider from the targeting reticule so probably not. I don't have Blast Wave in magegraf for some reason but I'll add it.

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

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Old 12/11/10, 10:15 PM   #21
Kolenzo
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Mage
 
Frostmourne
Originally Posted by Vontre View Post
Pretty sure yes. I haven't paid a ton of attention to how that works but assuming you just add together the damage of Flamestrike and Blast Wave that would easily annihilate our single target dps rotation, timers and all. Assuming you get the dot ticks, anyway. Might even be one target, although there's some additional "cast time" to consider from the targeting reticule so probably not. I don't have Blast Wave in magegraf for some reason but I'll add it.
Keep in mind that you need two mobs to actually activate the free flamestrike, unless you were referring to proccing it on two and then having one die straight away and only getting the dot on a single target.

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Old 12/12/10, 7:46 AM   #22
Mcpepsi
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Wildhammer
Originally Posted by Gaidin33 View Post
The new technique Fire mages employ is Scorch Weaving, whilst using Molten Armor, in conjunction with the Improved Scorch talent. Scorch Weaving refers to casting Scorch frequently in your rotation with Fireball. Scorch is free to cast. Think of Fireball as a high damage, yet unsustainable nuke. Scorch is a lower damage, yet infinetely sustainable nuke. If you get Scorch Weaving balance right - you'll make your mana last a long time and avoid going OOM - and still be able to deliver competitive DPS. If you get the balance wrong, by casting too many Fireballs, you'll go OOM too early - and need to cast excessive Scorches afterwards while you regain mana, reducing DPS.

This is completly false.

Can you explain to me how how casting 50 fireballs till oom then 50 scorches is any different from weaving fireball, scorch,fireball, scorch, ect 50 times over?.

I suggest that the statment is rewritten.

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Old 12/12/10, 8:06 AM   #23
nostie
Glass Joe
 
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Gnome Mage
 
Greymane
Originally Posted by Mcpepsi View Post
This is completly false.

Can you explain to me how how casting 50 fireballs till oom then 50 scorches is any different from weaving fireball, scorch,fireball, scorch, ect 50 times over?.

I suggest that the statment is rewritten.
The idea is that you should hover at the amount of mana that you would burn through from 35% boss health to zero.

Whether you scorch every other fireball or fireball five times, then scorch five times doesn't make a difference, but it does make a difference that you have enough mana to continually cast fireball while you have buffs such as Molten Fury up.

I agree that it should be rewritten, but only to include why that's desirable, and explaining that you don't need to weave scorches, you just need to hover at a certain % mana (that you know you'll burn through by the end of the boss by spamming fireball)

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Old 12/12/10, 8:08 AM   #24
Naqaj
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Emerald Dream (EU)
Originally Posted by Mcpepsi View Post
This is completly false.

Can you explain to me how how casting 50 fireballs till oom then 50 scorches is any different from weaving fireball, scorch,fireball, scorch, ect 50 times over?.

I suggest that the statment is rewritten.
If you oom at the beginning of the fight, you won't have the mana to spam your main nuke during execute phase, trinket procs, or boss vulnerability phases. For those times, it is advisable to keep your mana up to some degree so you can switch to short term nuke spam.

The statement is fine, if a bit short.

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Old 12/12/10, 8:24 AM   #25
Tyrian
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Frostmourne
Can you explain to me how how casting 50 fireballs till oom then 50 scorches is any different from weaving fireball, scorch,fireball, scorch, ect 50 times over?.
It's different because, simply put, the latter is better in the grand scheme of things.

Now's a good time to really talk about why, so thankyou for the feedback and we'll try to make it clearer to everyone as a result.

It's the way the comment is being interpreted, but the intent behind it is correct. Perhaps "Scorch Weaving" isn't really the best word to describe it. Scorch weaving (in the OP context) simply refers to casting Scorch (with Fireball) during a fight, and not mindlessly spamming Fireball like in WOTLK. The snapshot is a raid encounter. Whether you cast 50 fireball in succession, then 50 scorches - or 1 fireball and 2 scorch repeating - you're still weaving Scorch into what you do.

The notion that you should just cast 50 fireballs then 50 scorches in this style, however, is inaccurate - and dare I say it, a bad behaviour trap to fall into.

Many raid fights simply won't let you stay stationary enough to attempt this. Some have heavy AOE periods (magmaw) where you're forced to spend your mana to AOE heavily, and won't have the luxory of something like this. Some have constant, extensive movement - where casting still to Firebal till OOM is simply not a practical option. Some have 'boss weakened phases' where you dont want to be OOM and casting Scorch, just after a 50 fireball spam phase. Some bosses (Omnitron Council) have +% damage void zones, which spawn at times beyond your control - and you want to be able to cast Fireball ideally while in them.

In short, specific encounters will force you using a ratio to various degrees, whether people like it or not.

You could indeed try the 50 cast thing on "Patchwerk style fights" like Argaloth, though their an exception, many other encounters will prohibit it to various degrees. While it's possible to play like this, it most likely will come back to bite players if that's all they know how to do - because there are simply too many encounters where a ratio style is needed (enforced by encounter mechanics) and people will need to be familiar with it.

I'll try to reword that section to better include the aforementioned points later tonight.

Edit - here's the reworded version.

Fire Mages in Cataclysm need to manage their mana carefully. Gone are the level 80 days where mana was irrelevant. Attempting to cast chain cast Fireballs will result in you running OOM around ~3-4 minutes into an encounter. You simply can't do it anymore.

Fire mages now manage their mana by extensively using Scorch during encounters. Molten Armor is used, and the Improved Scorch talent is essential. Think of Fireball as a high damage, yet unsustainable nuke. Scorch is a lower damage, yet infinetely sustainable nuke. If you cast too many Fireballs, you'll go OOM early. If you cast too many Scorches, you'll be doing less DPS (Fireball is superior DPS).

Somewhere between these two extremes you need to find the balance for a given encounter. If you get the balance right - you'll make your mana the necessary duration and avoid going OOM - and still deliver maximum DPS.

Player instincts might initially be to "Cast chain Fireball until OOM" then "Cast chain Scorch to regen". Then alternate nicely between the two. While this might be possible in specific scenarios, it's not practical (nor possible) for many others. Encounter mechanics will enforce you to adopt a mix-and-match casting Scorch and Fireball more frequently. You might need to move a lot, and simply can't stand still for long periods. You might have adds which spawn suddenly, which need to be nuked down immediately with your best DPS rotation. A boss might put put up a buff, at unpredictable times, and you'll need to be ready to spend ~4k mana to Spellsteal it at any moment. You simply cant plan around having the perfect rotation, so the solution is to mix Fireball and Scorch together when casting.

Mixing Fireball and Scorch together frequently can result in a rotation such as 2 Fireballs to every 5 Scorches cast, or similar. This style of play is referred to as "Scorch Weaving".

Scorch Weaving is optimal because it allows your mana to hover at a specific %. This is known as your Mana Reserve. You can then use your Mana Reserve to cast heavy (unsustainable) Fireball rotations for key periods. Examples where you'll want a Mana Reserve available for use at a specific time are:

- Boss Weakened Phases.
- Powerful On-Use or passive Trinket procs. Engineering Glove Tinker.
- Molten Fury range on bosses
- When you spellsteal a powerful buff ability from Bosses
- Encounter Specific +% damage mechanics. Example: Void Zones and Acid Clouds on Omnitron Council spawn and give you increased damage / damage done. When they spawn will vary between attempts, so you can't plan your rotation out perfectly in advance. You need to have a Mana Reserve on standby, ready for use on demand.

For the above reasons, many Mages will use Scorch Weaving on every encounter, once they have enough experience and practise at doing it. They are attempting to ensure their mana reserves always hover at a healthy percentage, ready for periods when Fire spam is optimal.

Remember that any leftover mana at the end of an encounter is effectively wasted DPS. Like an Arcane mage, you want to try to time your mana (with Fireball as your burn throttle) to run out just as an encounter ends.

There are two other ways you can attempt to approach mana at 85. Neither of these are optimal from a DPS standpoint, but we'll note them here for the sake of thoroughness:

1 - Don't use Fireball at all. Only cast Scorch in rotation. Despite sounding like a ridiculous thing to do, it could actually provide up to ~90% of the DPS your normal Fireball/Scorch rotation would ordinarily deliver. Surprised at how strong it is? The big reason is Hot Streak: Scorch is a fast casting spell, and casting it more often means you get many more opportunities for Hot Streak Procs. Those Pyroblasts are big DPS. Ultimately, attempting this style of play will be a DPS loss, even if not quite as big as you might initially suspect.

2 - Use Mage Armor. Using Mage Armor makes mana largely trivial again. However it comes with two key problems. Firstly, you lose DPS mobility. Firestarter allows Scorch to be cast while moving, when Molten Armor is active. There are many Cataclysm encounters where you need to move, and move often. Using Mage Armor will prevent you from DPS'ing effectively during these periods. Second: It's lower DPS. Simulations show that using Molten Armor (With Scorch Weaving) is simply put, the better thing to do. You can attempt to use Mage Armor, but you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.
While this ended up being longer than I expected, it's important we be thorough in this area: Mana Management is absolutely crucial for Fire Mages, and it needs to be explained such that everyone can understand the points easily and correctly.

Last edited by Tyrian : 12/12/10 at 1:07 PM.

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Old 12/12/10, 5:42 PM   #26
angayelle
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Nordrassil (EU)
Originally Posted by Wizeowel View Post
I noticed this new feature last night, and it's pretty cool, but when there is actual AoE to do, then it tells me I'm refreshing even though I'm doing the LBs on different mobs. The Scorchio2 addon it's able to track separate LBs, maybe you can see how they do that and adjust CombustionHelper?
If you have the warning message then you are refreshing, my addon doesn't check guid of the mob because there is no need to do so :


if (spellId == 44457) and (event == "SPELL_AURA_REFRESH") and (comburefreshmode == true)
                    then combulbrefresh = combulbrefresh + 1
                         print(format("|cffff0000 -- You refreshed your Living bomb on |cffffffff%s |cffff0000too early. --|r",destName))
 end
the event SPELL_AURA_REFRESH only happens when there is an actual refresh, if there was no LB on the mob then SPELL_AURA_APPLIED would occur. Are you sure you're not seeing a refresh upon using impact ? Because then with no more than 3 targets, the previous LB would be reapplied by impact...

About showing which spell caused the ignite, it's just impossible to know that from ignite debuff. We can show if a spell have caused ignite but this is only but recording criticals, then calculating expected ignite damage. Note that i said "expected" because with ignite munching we have no way to know if the expected ignite is acutal ignite...

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Old 12/13/10, 4:37 AM   #27
Sinless
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Troll Mage
 
Frostwolf
How does evocation fit in this picture? Is it better to burn through your mana, evocate and make sure you don't run out of mana until the next evocate ? Or shall we weave scorhes that we never have to evocate? This is a simple question for arcane but probably not so much for fire.

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Old 12/13/10, 5:18 AM   #28
Ektoplasme
Von Kaiser
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Eitrigg (EU)
Based on the latest simulations from SimCraft, Evocation is a DPS gain.

With the priority list currently implemented in SimCraft, here is the timeline you get for a 5 minute Patchwerk fight:
1 - burn your mana until 38% (approx 1 minute)
2 - use Evocation to go back to 100%
3 - burn your mana again until around 40% (approx 1 minute)
4 - weave scorch and FB to stay around 40% mana
5 - when the time left before the kill is below 1 minute, you burn all your mana with FB
6 - you should be at 0% mana when the boss dies

Here is the output of SimCraft I used to write the above timeline. This was done using a BiS ilvl 372 Fire mage profile.

Simulationcraft Results

Pay attention to the mana timeline and actions priority list especially.

DO NOT pay attention to the numbers (DPS etc.). This output was done on a single iteration (this is the best if you want to analyse what happens during one kill), so is heavily RNG influenced.

If you are interested in DPS, DPET, uptime numbers, here is a version averaged on 10 000 runs:

Simulationcraft Results


I also did the computation with a blue geared mage (BiS pre-raid). The basic idea doesn't change much, but the burn phases are shorter (because less crits = less mana returned), so in step 5, you should replace "1 minute" by 40 seconds.

1 iteration fight: Simulationcraft Results
10 000 iterations fight: Simulationcraft Results

Last edited by Ektoplasme : 12/13/10 at 5:27 AM.

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Old 12/13/10, 5:59 AM   #29
elluminea
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Troll Mage
 
Lightbringer
Since they changed Clearcasting to not consume free scorch and hot streak it allows us to react to the proc and use a fireball/living bomb/fire blast instead, remaining at a zero mana rotation while upping DPS. It used to amount to a flavorful 10% reduction in mana costs, subject to RNG, because you would never ever cancel a cast to care about casting a more expensive cast. Now, however, it can be an integral reactionary part of the conserve rotation; if you are in such a phase I suggest watching Clearcasting very carefully, setting up a power aura to let you know to weave your rotation a certain way. I have noticed a tremendous increase in mana efficiency over how it was on beta because I was eating my free spell proc using free spells.

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Old 12/13/10, 6:30 AM   #30
Tyrian
Bald Bull
 
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Human Mage
 
Frostmourne
timeline you get for a 5 minute Patchwerk fight:
1 - burn your mana until 38% (approx 1 minute)
2 - use Evocation to go back to 100%
3 - burn your mana again until around 40% (approx 1 minute)
4 - weave scorch and FB to stay around 40% mana
5 - when the time left before the kill is below 1 minute, you burn all your mana with FB
6 - you should be at 0% mana when the boss dies
That's a good timeline. People can learn to tweak that generic suggestion to suit the unique needs of each encounter. Some encounters will let you follow this like clockwork, while others will (by design) force you into hover rotations for various reasons.

Ill rewrite the Mana Management Section (again) to include all of this, but i'll name and note the different types of rotations as: 'Burn rotation' and 'Hover rotation' and 'OOM/Movement rotation'. The "Hover Rotation" is the one which involves Scorch Weaving to stabilise mana. "Burn Rotation" is Fireball spam, for maximum DPS during key periods (outlined several posts back). "OOM/Movement rotation" is cast whenever you're either out of mana - or forced into periods of unavoidable, extensive movement as dictated by unique encounter needs.

Another thing that also needs to be included in your list is Mana Gems on CD and Mana Pots. Fire Mages need to learn to think like an Arcane Mage: Mana is DPS.

Soak up as much mana as possible during a fight, never waste any (eg: not using max amount of mana gems every encounter, forgetting to use Evocation) - and use that mana to prolong "Burn Rotations" during key periods. And finally, make sure you burn all possible mana by the time the fight ends.

Last edited by Tyrian : 12/13/10 at 6:42 AM.

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