Cataclysm Fire Mage Compendium - Page 23

zurmagus · 02/22/11, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Aerullia

Nice spreadsheet, I'd recommend adding a column for ignite munched, so people can see that clearly, so they do not get confused. The 6% is total damage lost, whereas the ignite munched in your example is around 20%.

Thanks for the suggestion. I updated the sheet to include the percentage Ignite damage lost and clarified the labels on the other quantities.

Edit: I also updated the example with the numbers from my most recent Nefarian kill. Just over 19% of my ignites were munched which resulted in a loss of 3.97% of my total damage.

Power · 02/22/11, 3:11 PM

A few days ago I did some testing with Simcraft and desynchronizing Flameorb and Combustion. Not using Flameorb was a clear DPS loss.
Here are two of the actions I tried:

actions+=/combustion,if=dot.living_bomb.ticking&dot.ignite.ticking&dot.pyroblast.ticking&cooldown.flame_orb.remains>15

actions+=/flame_orb,if=target.time_to_die>=12&cooldown.combustion.remains>15

None of them where an improvement over the standard actionlist.

Pasture · 02/22/11, 8:13 PM

Originally Posted by Power

A few days ago I did some testing with Simcraft and desynchronizing Flameorb and Combustion. Not using Flameorb was a clear DPS loss.
Here are two of the actions I tried:

actions+=/combustion,if=dot.living_bomb.ticking&dot.ignite.ticking&dot.pyroblast.ticking&cooldown.flame_orb.remains>15

actions+=/flame_orb,if=target.time_to_die>=12&cooldown.combustion.remains>15

None of them where an improvement over the standard actionlist.

You can't make a simple assertion like this.

Delaying Flame Orb will only ever be a dps loss if you lose another Flame Orb in doing so. It really depends on the fight duration, which you will never be able to accurately predict at the start of the fight. Getting a good Combustion largely relies on getting a big ignite under trinket procs. Typically a Combustion could be cast within the first 10-15 seconds, meaning you're not delaying Flame Orb by a lot at all.

Are the simulations accurately reflecting the increased chance to have a big ignite munched while Flame Orb is up? If not we shouldn't be relying on them to make assertions like this.

angayelle · 02/23/11, 1:12 AM

Mage - Ignite munching some data - MMO-Champion BlueTracker

Since the design of Ignite doesn’t allow us to resolve munching (defined as multiple simultaneous crits that fail to properly proc Ignite) directly, we’re thinking about a solution that would instead prevent Ignite from proc’ing on periodic crits. This might be a minor dps loss, but possibly no dps loss at all since it would stop most cases of munching. If it turned out to be a dps loss, we could compensate for it elsewhere. You're likely to see some experimenting in future patch PTRs. This is a pretty good example of something we can't hotfix, or rather wouldn't try. It’s the kind of change that would likely have unpredictable side-effects.

Looks like we won't get ignite fixed, rather removed one source of munching... I don't see this resolving our problems with munching between Fireball and Insta cast Pyros.

Lehetetlen · 02/23/11, 4:04 AM

It is quite disheartening that instead of coming up with a solution that works all the time, they are just reverting changes (Ignite proccing on LB DoT tick crits).

Probably changing the flight speed of Pyroblast or Fireball/FFB could tone down the munching a bit further in addition of the proposed band-aid, still they continue to just mask the problem.

Zaldinar · 02/23/11, 10:07 AM

This proposed change if it happens won't resolve the base behavior, but it will make it much less frequent, which is a perfectly acceptable workaround if the mechanics themselves can't support a fix (Given how long this particular one has been present... Patch 2.0 anyone? I'd say it's not getting fixed any time soon).

Now the real interesting question will be if the pendulum swings back a little bit to favor using scorch a little more frequently, if the thought of HS Proc->Fireball->Scorch->HS Pyro will become viable again as a method for avoiding the munch event from the fireball and pyro. Things to keep an eye out for in the future.

Eschwits · 02/23/11, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Silverwind

Regarding Flame Orb:
I've definately noticed more reliable high combustions when delaying the first FO cast to after the combustion. My sequence at the start of a fight now is:

- Scorch
- Fireball until Hot Streak
- Hot Streak
- Living Bomb
- Combustion
- Flame Orb

I was able to reliable get Combustions ticking for 11-13k that way, with almost no chance of munching because LB/FO are left out.

Maybe it was a typo, but since living bomb dps is a significant part of combustion dps, Living Bomb should appear in the line just before Combustion, not after.

You should also take into account whether your fireballs are crits or not. At the start of a fight if HS procs early I will wait until a fireball crit while most of my procs are active then use the HS, apply LB, then combustion, then Flame Orb. Doing this, if both the pyro and last fb crit, one could be munched. If HS is unavailable, I will combustion without a pyroblast dot. A prior poster showed pyroblast to be < 10% of combustion dps, therefore not worth waiting for if you have a large ignite from a fireball crit.

epiphenom · 02/23/11, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by angayelle

Looks like we won't get ignite fixed, rather removed one source of munching... I don't see this resolving our problems with munching between Fireball and Insta cast Pyros.

Their reply seems to indicate that they don't understand that simultaneous crits are not the only source of munching. Although removing periodic ignites will lessen the frequency of situations where the ignite refuses to accept refreshes, it won't eliminate them, especially during periods of increased haste.

Zaldinar · 02/23/11, 12:00 PM

It indicates nothing of the sort. It indicates that that is the particular cause that they have a very simple method of mitigating and is a likely plan of attack. You are choosing to take it to mean they do not understand, although their statement does not in any way make a case for that claim. There is no way short of actually fixing the bug to completely eliminate the problem, given that Blizzard has now several times said that the bug is effectively unfixable, the best approach is minimization, which would seem to be their plan.

Fayenoor · 02/23/11, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by Zaldinar

It indicates nothing of the sort. It indicates that that is the particular cause that they have a very simple method of mitigating and is a likely plan of attack. You are choosing to take it to mean they do not understand, although their statement does not in any way make a case for that claim. There is no way short of actually fixing the bug to completely eliminate the problem, given that Blizzard has now several times said that the bug is effectively unfixable, the best approach is minimization, which would seem to be their plan.

Yes, I agree that this is definitely an acceptable way of reducing the chances of ignite munching at the cost of minor DPS loss which can be retuned if needed. The only other way that I can think of is to separate the ignite damage from DOT crits into a different debuff. This retains the damage from DOT crit ignites while not effecting ignite munching.

Sinless · 02/23/11, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Gloinn12

Recent SimCraft results have shown that this is not always true anymore. It is more beneficial to swap to mage armor sub 5% instead of using evocation. It would of course be more beneficial to use evocation on a fight with some sort of down time(aka nef).

Could you please elaborate what kind of down time you have at Nef? Neither of the 3 phases, nor phase transitions have any down time.

Silentbob78 · 02/23/11, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Sinless

Could you please elaborate what kind of down time you have at Nef? Neither of the 3 phases, nor phase transitions have any down time.

In 10 man Nefarian phase 2, it can be a little hard to allocate DPS evenly among the platforms. At least thats my experience. If you are on the first platform to finish the add and do not push for a crackle in phase 2 along with Nefarian around 72-71% from phase 1, there will be a little downtime.

GnomerTerp · 02/23/11, 5:08 PM

Originally Posted by Sinless

Could you please elaborate what kind of down time you have at Nef? Neither of the 3 phases, nor phase transitions have any down time.

I haven't started any hardmode attempts yet - but on normal I always evocate just after onyxia is dead before nef fills the room with lava. You have time to get blink to the base of your platform and get a full evo out.

lmaoskates · 02/23/11, 5:36 PM

Originally Posted by GnomerTerp

I haven't started any hardmode attempts yet - but on normal I always evocate just after onyxia is dead before nef fills the room with lava. You have time to get blink to the base of your platform and get a full evo out.

You can aswell just run to your platform spamming scorch - so no, there is no real downtime. At least our raid brings Nef in P2 always as low as possible, so there is always a target to DPS. However it might be helpful to switch to Mage Armor in that phase because of the heavy RaidDMG and hoping this regens enough Mana so there would be no need to Evocate.
To be honest I cannot think of a single fight where you could not DPS something at any time.

@Combustion: Been trying Al'Akir 10hc today for 4h, precasting fireball (yeah, was just too lazy to bind the non-proc pyroblast), putting up LB, 1x scorch and then chaincasting fireball till I got a pyroblast. And actually I didn't see much ignite munching due to LB. In addition LB is a huge part of our DPS so I wouldn't wait all too long for crits to apply LB.

Saruk · 02/23/11, 7:01 PM

Originally Posted by Silverwind

It's mostly guessing for now. I've definately noticed more reliable high combustions when delaying the first FO cast to after the combustion. My sequence at the start of a fight now is:

- Scorch
- Fireball until Hot Streak
- Hot Streak
- Combustion
- Living Bomb
- Flame Orb

Apart from the subsequent post that pointed out LB should come before combustion, this is not an optimal way to start a fight. The issue is your second line "FB until HS". You are effectively injecting a significant amount of RNG into your rotation. You might go good 10 to 12 FBs without a HS. In this scenario you are going to be way behind in dps.

It's critical that Fire Mages use combustion helper to optimize their dps. Using combustion helper tells you if you have munched an ignite because the 45k FB crit that just landed will show a 2k ignite tick and not a 7-8k ignite tick. You need to keep a close eye on the amount ignite is ticking for and ONLY use combustion when ignite is ticking for an acceptable amount.

Don't leave Combustion to RNG ignite munches. Use the helper to know exactly what the ignite tick is.