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Old 05/18/11, 7:57 AM   #496
silentshift
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by ocdebnam View Post
Following up on the potential of using Pyroblast as your nuke during Time Warp... If you have at least 22% from gear, 3/3 Netherwind Presence, 5% raid buff, and Time Warp, you can get Pyroblast down to 1 second cast time. That is some insane DpS given the 20% crit chance bonus for Pyroblast. Goblins will only need 20.73% from gear.
I would love to see more behind this.

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Old 05/18/11, 12:55 PM   #497
Trel
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Kirin Tor (EU)
Originally Posted by Finkum View Post
I may be interpreting the graph incorrectly, but it suggests to me that the DPS value of 4T12 diminishes to nothing at about 45% crit chance, which is not unreasonably high (I'm around 37% chance raid-buffed right now, and haven't touched any hard modes).
Assuming the first formula, that is generally right. It diminishes to nothing because T3 HS chance becomes 0.

Zaldinar's min() function is another good possibility. I plotted that, and instead of diminishing returns, it resulted in adding a 6-8% proc chance per cast over all crit rates of interest.

One Caveat: This assumes that T3 & T4 crit rates are the same. From prior posts, T3 does not seem to include target debuffs or even glyphs. So that ~40% crit rate we see in raids may actually be less than 30% for T3HS purposes. In which case diminishing returns may not be an issue.

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Old 05/19/11, 1:18 PM   #498
Lurama
Glass Joe
 
Troll Mage
 
<BAD>
Demon Soul
*Only reason I'm posting this here is the relationship to ignite munching*

I was curious if anyone knows if Combustion Helper, when tracking ignite munching, counts remaining ignite damage on a target that recently died as being munched damage? I would hope that it doesn't, but in some cases I think it might be.

I'll upload some information later when I get home, but I have an excel sheet that I just tracked the ignite munching report from the addon post attempts on H Magmaw - 10 man.

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Old 05/19/11, 2:23 PM   #499
angayelle
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Nordrassil (EU)
Originally Posted by Lurama View Post
*Only reason I'm posting this here is the relationship to ignite munching*

I was curious if anyone knows if Combustion Helper, when tracking ignite munching, counts remaining ignite damage on a target that recently died as being munched damage? I would hope that it doesn't, but in some cases I think it might be.

I'll upload some information later when I get home, but I have an excel sheet that I just tracked the ignite munching report from the addon post attempts on H Magmaw - 10 man.
No, combustionhelper doesn't substract remaining ignite when the target die. Mainly wether it's due to munching or early dieing we have lost potential damage which is the information I wanted people to know.

Regarding magmaw, be aware that I'm only storing damage lost on your primary target, ignoring adds because impact throw everything off. Your calculation might be useless...

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Old 05/19/11, 2:45 PM   #500
Earl
Glass Joe
 
Goblin Rogue
 
Stormscale (EU)
Sorry for the potentially Moronic question, but have scoured the entire thread and not seen it mentioned at all. Is dragon's breath not worth using in an AoE scenario? As far as I can tell (although I dont know how it scales with spellpower) it does more damage than Flamestrike, so assuming you can hit all targets with it, it should be used on cooldown. Though then It would probably be mentioned in the AoE rotation part, so maybe there is something I am missing?

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Old 05/22/11, 12:05 PM   #501
Kolenzo
Von Kaiser
 
Kolenzo's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Mage
 
Frostmourne
Originally Posted by ocdebnam View Post
Exactly 55.55% haste is required to get 4T11 Fireball down to 1 second casting time, which during Time Warp and accounting for Netherwind Presence and raid buffs translates into only 11.06% haste from gear, also not an ideal haste rating. Maybe we should switch to Pyroblast as our primary nuke during Time Warp....

<snip>

Following up on the potential of using Pyroblast as your nuke during Time Warp... If you have at least 22% from gear, 3/3 Netherwind Presence, 5% raid buff, and Time Warp, you can get Pyroblast down to 1 second cast time.
Your calculations are completely wrong. Haste is not treated as a percentage reduction in cast time, but rather as a percentage increase in the number of spells you can cast in a given time period. 100% = 100% more casts in a given time period (ie half of the base cast time), not instant cast. Well over 100% haste is required to get fireball to a 1 sec cast time, and over 200% for pyroblast to reach a 1 sec cast time.

Originally Posted by Earl View Post
Sorry for the potentially Moronic question, but have scoured the entire thread and not seen it mentioned at all. Is dragon's breath not worth using in an AoE scenario? As far as I can tell (although I dont know how it scales with spellpower) it does more damage than Flamestrike, so assuming you can hit all targets with it, it should be used on cooldown. Though then It would probably be mentioned in the AoE rotation part, so maybe there is something I am missing?
Dragon's breath does more initial damage than flamestrike, but the dot from flamestrike will push it ahead - and the flamestrike dot also ignores the aoe cap. Since flamestrikes dot does not stack, dragons breath is stronger to use than spamming flame strike after the initial FS for the dot, or if you do not expect your targets to live beyond ~2 ticks of the dot (in situations with a high number of targets, even a single tick of the FS dot would pull FS ahead of DB).

A more common choice is to simply keep the flamestrike and improved flamestrike dots up, and use your normal dps rotation on a target while impacting dots off it. If blastwave (when specced IFS) and your initial flamestrike fail to proc impact when you have a strong ignite/combustion up, following that up with a dragon's breath if you are in range would be a better choice than continuing to spam FS.

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Old 05/24/11, 6:42 PM   #502
angayelle
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Nordrassil (EU)
Recent changes to Fire :
  • Pyroblast: The version of this spell cast when Hot Streak is not active did slightly less damage than the Hot Streak version. Its damage has been increased so that both versions of Pyroblast now do the same amount of damage.
  • Impact: When Living Bomb is spread via this talent, it will only be spread to two additional targets. The net effect is that if the Mage’s most recent Living Bomb target is the same as their Impact target, that target will no longer lose the Living Bomb effect. If Living Bomb is active on multiple targets when the Impact effect is cast, Living Bomb will remain active on the most recent Living Bomb target, and will be added to two other nearby targets.

Pyroblast being upped for normal cast is nice, even if it affect one spellcast for the whole fight.
The change to Impact puzzle me a bit though. As I read it, if we have 3 LB running on 3 target, casting impact will remove the two ooldest LB and keep the most recent one and then spread it to 2 new targets. So we can impact any mob around and get the LB spreading ? Maybe just a strange wording but still a bit puzzling.

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Old 05/24/11, 7:19 PM   #503
talchas
Von Kaiser
 
Troll Mage
 
Scarlet Crusade
The intent is so that if there are a lot of targets around in impact range, and you put LB up on the boss and then impact, then the boss will still have LB, instead of the current situation where the boss will lose LB in favor of one of the other probably less important targets.

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Old 05/25/11, 8:47 AM   #504
fateswarm
Von Kaiser
 
fateswarm's Avatar
 
Goblin Mage
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Yes; it appears the current behavior favored keeping a low HP target up for further utilization of spells on it (since it will have LB on it for less time). The new behavior avoids the mild necessity to have to reapply LB on a high HP target that might require application of Combustion at a point between applying LB and spreading it (with a previous impact).

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Old 05/25/11, 12:27 PM   #505
 EasirokThunderpants
Von Kaiser
 
Human Mage
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by angayelle View Post
Pyroblast being upped for normal cast is nice, even if it affect one spellcast for the whole fight.
It will also be a slight dps boost for 100% Corruption mages in the Cho'gall fight, who are spamming Pyroblast even without Hot Streak procs.

That is very much a niche case though, so I doubt the change was made just to help out in that one fight. Seems like an odd thing to tweak really unless the goal was just to have consistency between the two versions of the spell.

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Old 05/27/11, 2:18 AM   #506
Mightymunk
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Bonechewer
So I have run over 100 Rawr and SimCraft simulations and get mixed results for whether haste or crit is the better stat. Up until this past week I reforged into haste, however this past week while working on heroic chimaeron, I decided to see if crit was competitive. The results were mixed, so I figured I'd come here and see if anyone who likes to crunch numbers can shine some light on the situation. Should we try to balance haste and crit via reforging or should we go all for one stat?

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Old 05/28/11, 10:38 AM   #507
 Wizeowel
old and slow
 
Wizeowel's Avatar
 
Human Mage
 
Nordrassil (EU)
Originally Posted by Mightymunk View Post
So I have run over 100 Rawr and SimCraft simulations and get mixed results for whether haste or crit is the better stat. Up until this past week I reforged into haste, however this past week while working on heroic chimaeron, I decided to see if crit was competitive. The results were mixed, so I figured I'd come here and see if anyone who likes to crunch numbers can shine some light on the situation. Should we try to balance haste and crit via reforging or should we go all for one stat?
In what way were your results 'mixed'? Which settings did you try for Rawr and SimC that you needed to run them 100 times?

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Old 05/31/11, 1:15 PM   #508
Mightymunk
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Bonechewer
Originally Posted by Wizeowel View Post
In what way were your results 'mixed'? Which settings did you try for Rawr and SimC that you needed to run them 100 times?
Well I started off using SimC and Rawr right after 4.1 due to all the changes, however my gear improved significantly so my results would change from week to week. My results were mixed because some simulations would have haste having a higher stat weight than crit, whereas a simulation immediately after that would have crit with the higher stat weight. I even tried adding stats to my character to see if it would make a difference, and it would only do so if I would drastically increase either haste or crit.

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Old 06/07/11, 1:12 PM   #509
qae
Piston Honda
 
qae's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kirin Tor (EU)
One small note on FFB use, I tried the usual rotation, using FFB (glyphed) and Scorch as filler :

start with Scorch, then 3x FFB to get 3 stacks going, then only cast FFB to refresh the 3x stacks and use scorch the rest of the time, never letting the 3x stacks of FFB dot fall off.
Now I realise it can be tedious when considering the travel time of FFB but the result is having the FFB dot doing consistently 8-10% damage of the FFB total damage, instead of a measy 2-3% when spamming FFB. It may be something to look at, especially considering that using a lot of scorchs means less ignite munching and more Hot streaks (most ignite muching happens with the FB/FFB+Pyro! combo).

It may be not worth the hassle, but I though I would still report this to you guys.

Edit: unfortunately lower dps than standard rotation
Click Here ← Click Here
#!./simc

mage=Mage_Fire_Frostfire_T11_372
origin="http://chardev.org/?profile=88851"
level=85
race=troll
role=spell
use_pre_potion=1
professions=tailoring=525/jewelcrafting=525
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/talent#mage-3030100000000000000002313302201201210130310300000000000000000
glyphs=evocation/dragons_breath/mana_shield/conjuring/arcane_brilliance/slow_fall/frostfire/pyroblast/molten_armor
actions=flask,type=draconic_mind
actions+=/food,type=seafood_magnifique_feast
actions+=/arcane_brilliance
actions+=/molten_armor,if=buff.mage_armor.down&buff.molten_armor.down
actions+=/molten_armor,if=mana_pct>60&buff.mage_armor.up
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/counterspell
actions+=/conjure_mana_gem,invulnerable=1,if=mana_gem_charges<3
actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=!in_combat
actions+=/volcanic_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=40
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/mana_gem,if=mana_deficit>12500
actions+=/scorch,debuff=1
actions+=/combustion,if=dot.living_bomb.ticking&dot.ignite.ticking&dot.pyroblast.ticking
actions+=/mirror_image,if=target.time_to_die>=25
actions+=/living_bomb,if=!ticking
actions+=/pyroblast_hs,if=buff.hot_streak.react
actions+=/flame_orb,if=target.time_to_die>=12
actions+=/frostfire_bolt,if=dot.frostfire_bolt.remains<=3
actions+=/mage_armor,if=mana_pct<5&buff.mage_armor.down
actions+=/scorch
head=crown_of_the_twilight_queen,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=379,quality=epic,stats=11 36armor_264crit_244haste_351int_617sta,reforge=crit_hit,gems=burning_shadowspirit_20h it_20int_30int,enchant=60int_35crit
neck=valionas_medallion,heroic=1,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=143haste_215int_143mas tery_322sta,reforge=mastery_hit
shoulders=firelords_mantle,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=1009armo r_191haste_171hit_266int_429sta,gems=40int_10haste,enchant=50int_25haste
chest=firelords_robes,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=1346armor_247 crit_227haste_345int_578sta,reforge=crit_hit,gems=40int_20hit_20int_20int,enchant=20a ll
waist=belt_of_arcane_storms,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=757armo r_171crit_191haste_266int_429sta,reforge=crit_hit,gems=67int_67int
legs=firelords_leggings,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=1177armor_2 57haste_217hit_345int_578sta,gems=20haste_20int_67int_20int,enchant=95int_80sta
feet=einhorns_galoshes,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=925armor_191 haste_266int_171mastery_429sta,reforge=haste_hit,gems=40int_10haste,enchant=50hit
wrists=bracers_of_the_bronze_flight,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats =589armor_143haste_215int_143mastery_322sta,reforge=mastery_hit,enchant=50int
hands=firelords_gloves,heroic=1,type=cloth,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=841armor_171 crit_266int_191mastery_429sta,reforge=mastery_hit,gems=40int,enchant=65mastery
finger1=planetary_band_of_the_wildfire,heroic=1,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=321sta_ 214int_143hit_143crit,reforge=crit_haste,suffix=129
finger2=signet_of_the_fifth_circle,heroic=1,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=143haste_21 5int_143mastery_322sta,reforge=mastery_hit
trinket1=theralions_mirror,heroic=1,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=363int,equip=onspel lcast_2178mastery_10%_20dur_100cd
trinket2=darkmoon_card_volcano,ilevel=359,quality=epic,stats=321mastery,reforge=maste ry_hit,equip=onspelldamage_1200+10fire_1600int_30%_12dur_45cd
back=shroud_of_endless_grief,heroic=1,ilevel=379,quality=epic,stats=699armor_133haste _209int_153mastery_344sta,reforge=mastery_hit,gems=40int,enchant=lightweave_embroider y
main_hand=stormwake_the_tempests_reach_of_the_wildfire,heroic=1,ilevel=372,quality=ep ic,stats=2207sp_247sta_165int_110hit_110crit,reforge=crit_haste,enchant=power_torrent ,weapon=sword_1.60speed_73min_137max,suffix=129
off_hand=book_of_binding_will,heroic=1,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=143haste_143hit_ 215int_322sta,enchant=40int
ranged=theresas_booklight,ilevel=359,quality=epic,stats=72hit_107int_72mastery_161sta ,reforge=mastery_haste
# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=20
# gear_agility=20
# gear_stamina=5950
# gear_intellect=4923
# gear_spirit=21
# gear_spell_power=2207
# gear_hit_rating=1729
# gear_crit_rating=769
# gear_haste_rating=2124
# gear_mastery_rating=938
# gear_armor=8479
# meta_gem=burning_shadowspirit
# tier11_2pc_caster=1
# tier11_4pc_caster=1
# back=shroud_of_endless_grief,heroic=1,enchant=lightweave_embroidery
# main_hand=stormwake_the_tempests_reach_of_the_wildfire,heroic=1,weapon=sword_1.60spee d_73min_137max,enchant=power_torrent

Last edited by Wizeowel : 06/07/11 at 8:23 PM. Reason: Returned from the dung heap since Qae PM'd me the evidence

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Old 06/08/11, 8:44 AM   #510
Maenil
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Long time reader but first contribution here.

Common knowledge by now is that combustion gains a second tick at 15% haste but I did not find the exact haste rating value for this being mentioned anywhere in this thread or related ones. As I have just geared for 15.01% haste to gain that second extra tick, I was quite surprised when testing on the dummies that only 11 combustion ticks occured instead of the expected 12.

So I did some calculations for the required rating as per the formulas on the original post. With 3/3 NP talented but without the raid haste buff, the required haste from gear is 11,650485%. This is a rating of 1491,92621 or 1492 to be certainly over the required rating.

Now, my newly rearranged gear on my mage has 1493 rating with 15,01% displayed on character sheet and after a number of combustion tests (around 15), each and every time only 11 ticks occured. After I did some reshuffling of gear with an elixir of mighty speed (225 haste rating), I got to 1494 haste rating (which is 15,02% haste displayed on character sheet). Sure enough with 1494 haste rating, combustion gained the 2 extra ticks with a total of 12 ticks.

Can we conclude from this that the softcap for 2 extra combustion ticks is indeed 15,02% haste and not the 15% mentioned in this and other threads? Could the situation the same with a combination of other haste buffs especially dark intent, hybrid spec spell haste buff and heroism? Could this difference be present at the other combustion extra tick gain caps (1, 3, 4, etc...)?

At work now so can't test more but I'll return to this after tonight's raid.

Last edited by Maenil : 06/08/11 at 8:51 AM.

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