Cataclysm Fire Mage Compendium - Page 37

Malcophant · 07/18/11, 12:50 PM

A good rule of thumb is to wait until your fireball is <1s cast, then swap to pyroblast. After fireball drops below 1s, the additional haste from rings won't help your DPS at all, so no real reason to continue using it.

If you're progressing on heroic mode of this fight, I'd suggest making a set of gear specifically for this fight. 4pc T11 is very weak, due to the little damage done by fireball along with the haste buff. Haste and crit are both devalued, since a majority of your DPS comes with the haste and crit buff (burnout) so gearing similar to arcane is probably a good idea. Mastery is your best secondary stat (apart from hit) on this fight.

Chaosandfury · 07/20/11, 2:27 AM

Originally Posted by Malcophant

A good rule of thumb is to wait until your fireball is <1s cast, then swap to pyroblast. After fireball drops below 1s, the additional haste from rings won't help your DPS at all, so no real reason to continue using it.

If you're progressing on heroic mode of this fight, I'd suggest making a set of gear specifically for this fight. 4pc T11 is very weak, due to the little damage done by fireball along with the haste buff. Haste and crit are both devalued, since a majority of your DPS comes with the haste and crit buff (burnout) so gearing similar to arcane is probably a good idea. Mastery is your best secondary stat (apart from hit) on this fight.

I found it Ideal to switch to Pyroblast when Pyro was at 1.1-1.2 second cast which is between 20-23 stacks of the rings.

Sadsalt · 07/20/11, 2:01 PM

Originally Posted by Chaosandfury

I found it Ideal to switch to Pyroblast when Pyro was at 1.1-1.2 second cast which is between 20-23 stacks of the rings.

Could you elaborate on why you found that to be ideal? Is your Fireball GCD capped before then, and if so, what is your reasoning for not switching earlier?

Malcophant · 07/20/11, 2:21 PM

Originally Posted by Sadsalt

Could you elaborate on why you found that to be ideal? Is your Fireball GCD capped before then, and if so, what is your reasoning for not switching earlier?

The question that decides when to switch is at what cast time does pyroblast do more dps than a 1s fireball. Even if fireball is GCD capped, if a 1s fireball cast (which is what it is if gcd capped) does more DPS than an x second pyro, it's still better to fireball, even if you don't benefit from the increasing haste. You should only switch when pyro starts doing more DPS.

[s]I don't have an answer for that question, unfortunately, but it's likely somewhere between the two extremes.[/s]

Edit: Going off of Simulationcraft Results, fireblast has an DPE (damage per cast) of 31107, while pyro_hs has a DPE of 52771.

Assuming these are roughly accurate for current gear, the solution becomes 52771/x = 31107 so x=1.696s. Based on this, once pyroblast drops under a 1.7s cast (and fireball is <1s), it's higher DPS to use pyro. I'm not sure about haste scaling, so it's possible that you can switch before fireball drops below 1s, but I don't know for sure.

Note that this is solely for best in slot gear, and the actual cast time to switch may change based on your current gear. If you want to be truly optimal, sim it yourself and plug your own numbers in.

Violett · 07/21/11, 4:14 AM

Originally Posted by Malcophant

The question that decides when to switch is at what cast time does pyroblast do more dps than a 1s fireball. Even if fireball is GCD capped, if a 1s fireball cast (which is what it is if gcd capped) does more DPS than an x second pyro, it's still better to fireball, even if you don't benefit from the increasing haste. You should only switch when pyro starts doing more DPS.

[s]I don't have an answer for that question, unfortunately, but it's likely somewhere between the two extremes.[/s]

Edit: Going off of Simulationcraft Results, fireblast has an DPE (damage per cast) of 31107, while pyro_hs has a DPE of 52771.

Assuming these are roughly accurate for current gear, the solution becomes 52771/x = 31107 so x=1.696s. Based on this, once pyroblast drops under a 1.7s cast (and fireball is <1s), it's higher DPS to use pyro. I'm not sure about haste scaling, so it's possible that you can switch before fireball drops below 1s, but I don't know for sure.

Note that this is solely for best in slot gear, and the actual cast time to switch may change based on your current gear. If you want to be truly optimal, sim it yourself and plug your own numbers in.

Lets take 5 different reports from WoL: for example 45, 50, 54, 60 and 70 top dps firemages. These logs last for 8-9 minutes and there was 35-40kk damage total, so looks like they were not edited or bugged and we can take them for our calculations:
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Lets look on average damage of Fireball and Pyroblast:

Damage:

Number	FB hit	FB crit	Pyro hit	Pyro crit
1	17046.0	35341.0	20647.9	48574.1
2	16781.5	35987.5	22463.9	48709.8
3	17651.2	37725.5	23632.3	52211.7
4	17101.9	34384.8	19400.6	46153.9
5	16806.7	33145.8	19938.7	48765.3

And now lets count when you should cast Pyro instead of FB, assuming you have 1 second cast of FB (gcd) and X seconds cast of Pyro.
FB dmg/FB cast time = Pyro dmg/Pyro cast time
FB dmg = Pyro dmg/X
X = Pyro dmg/FB dmg

Amount of seconds:

Number	FB-Pyro hit	FB-Pyro crit
1	1.21	1.37
2	1.34	1.35
3	1.34	1.38
4	1.13	1.34
5	1.18	1.47

Now look numbers - clearly when we need to switch from FB to Pyro we dont have 25 stacks and Alysra Razor buff => we hit more then crit => taking only hit column for our calculations: throwing away biggest and smallest numbers we are coming to 1.24 seconds. This is amount of cast time of Pyro when we need to switch to Pyro casting instead of FB.
Of course this is very rough calculations, hovewer, according to this we need to switch clearly later when Pyro reach 1.69s cast, as previous poster said.
I would be glad if someone can confirm, what I said above. Also it would be nice if someone can count amount of Blazing Power buff at switch.

Omnia · 07/21/11, 4:47 AM

At first glance, it looks like you skipped the dot portion of Pyroblast entirely. In this thread, I used Rawr and found the threshold for my gear to be 1.47sec instead. (I did so by adjusting the haste multiplier value to find the FB dps at 1.00sec, then adjusting it back down until I found the Pyro dps matching that earlier FB dps value.)

In addition, you can't draw such general conclusions from Alysrazor logs spanning air and ground phases. The averages won't tell you anything useful about relative FB vs Pyro damage in the air, since these logs will generally spam Pyro during the 2x damage phase and skew results.

Violett · 07/21/11, 9:56 AM

Originally Posted by Omnia

At first glance, it looks like you skipped the dot portion of Pyroblast entirely. In this thread, I used Rawr and found the threshold for my gear to be 1.47sec instead. (I did so by adjusting the haste multiplier value to find the FB dps at 1.00sec, then adjusting it back down until I found the Pyro dps matching that earlier FB dps value.)

In addition, you can't draw such general conclusions from Alysrazor logs spanning air and ground phases. The averages won't tell you anything useful about relative FB vs Pyro damage in the air, since these logs will generally spam Pyro during the 2x damage phase and skew results.

You are right, but only partially.
I've really skipped Pyro dot, just because it should be present almost all the time on boss due to Pyroblast!. If you spam pyro or FB there will be this dot anyways. Also if you will spam pyro, dot will just be owerwritten all the time. I made this conclusion from my own expirience, also analysing logs - pyro dot uptime is 60-70% - taking into account transaction phases we getting almost 100% uptime of dot in switch time. So this does not count.
And you can take average damage of ability because - look, I took only hit calculations. On double damage phase almost all your casts are critical strikes - so it wont mess with our calculations.

Strunker · 07/22/11, 10:37 AM

I switched over to pyroblast from fireball spam at the 11th stack. At that point the cast time of fireball is just above the 1 second mark, and if you hit all your rings the first firestorm should come a few seconds after this point. So as a general rule of thumb, if you hit all the rings up top before the first firestorm you will have around 12-13 stacks, and you can just straight pyro spam from that point on when you go back up.

That is until your raid wipes repeatedly because the firestorm animation is actually a lie, or your melee are garbage at interrupts, and/or cant push enough dps to kill all the adds down below.

There is such a long ramp up time on this fight getting to 25 stacks. I never went up on normal modes so never really realized how long it actually takes. It isnt until right before the second fire storm you really have all your stacks going. And you dont get Alysra's Razor (the75% crit buff) until they are maxed.

fateswarm · 07/22/11, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Strunker

It isnt until right before the second fire storm you really have all your stacks going. And you dont get Alysra's Razor (the75% crit buff) until they are maxed.

At first I had made a setup assuming the buf is up. As expected Rawr (almost) entirely ignored crit and haste rating and attempted to only stack mastery. However, this is not realistic for the information I quoted. I made a very crude approximation that the buf's effects are only 70% realized based on logs showing about 30% of damage coming from Pyroblast in most of the high damage cases.

And now this is the interesting bit: That assumption almost precisely modelled the stats of an Arcane Mage (e.g. mastery was high but not explosive). It was as if the fight was designed for Arcane Mages that will only respec.

This is again, a crude approximation. Here is a thread at Rawr discussing a possible inclusion of proper modelling of the Alysrazor encounter and a report asking for Pyroblast(normal)'s inclusion in stats list.

• EasirokThunderpants · 07/26/11, 9:21 PM

As noted in my post on the Warcraft Mage forums (here: Tested Fireball + Instant Pyro Ignite Munchin - Forums - World of Warcraft), I am under the impression that Ignite Munching has been stealth fixed in 4.2. I have not seen any serious discussion of the topic since Firelands went live (including in this thread), so either my math is flawed or it just hasn't been noticed by many.

From my guild's raid logs this past week while we worked on heroic Alysrazor: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

Pyroblast! Crit Damage: 24,343,363
Pyroblast Crit Damage: 51,192,699
Scorch Crit Damage: 1,746,266
Fireball Crit Damage: 18,639,020
Fireblast Crit Damage: 516,142
Blast Wave Crit Damage: 38,499
Total Crit Damage Eligible for Ignite: 96,475,989

[I believe the above spells are the only ones eligible for Ignite?]

Base Ignite Damage (40% of crit): 38,590,395.6
Base Mastery: 8 + 7.57 (1357 rating)
Trinket Mastery: 2178 * (20sec / 120cd) = 363 rating = 2.025 Mastery
Mastery Total: 8 + 7.57 + 2.025 = 17.595
Mastery Rating Bonus: 17.595 * 2.8% = 49.3%
Mastery Base Bonus: 22%
Mastery Total Bonus: 71.3%

Total Expected Ignite Damage: 38,590,395.6 * 1.713 = 66,105,348
Total Ignite Damage from the above WoL logs: 66,186,274

That is a deviation of only about a tenth of a percent, which could easily be explained away by the nature of the Mirror proc timing.

From this evidence it would seem that Ignite Munching really has been fixed? Or is there a flaw in my math (beyond the obvious "this is only two hours of data")?

Or has there already been investigation of this that I managed to miss somehow?

Esarael · 07/26/11, 11:29 PM

If Ignite Munching has been fixed, it would make modeling this much easier. While trying to do it myself, the biggest problems I found were modeling Ignite Munching/Clipping and modeling procs.

Sheenaz · 07/27/11, 8:38 AM

What do you think about Moonwell Chalice (Moonwell Chalice - Item - World of Warcraft) for Fire Mage? Can It be better than Bell of Enraging Resonanse HC or DC: Volcano?

Eylirria · 07/27/11, 9:56 AM

Has anyone been able to verify that the hotfix to Combustion means that it is also now subject to damage INCREASING modifiers?

I'm still at work and can't test it out myself, but I found the wording to not be ideal: They are mentioning it no longer ignores damage MODIFIERS, then go ahead and list an example with a damage reduction.

Makes me wonder because the whole point of combustion ignoring these things was so that it did not double-dip either positively or negatively. I can't imagine them letting combustion double dip positively, but I can't test it out.

Tyrian · 07/27/11, 11:04 AM

What do you think about Moonwell Chalice (Moonwell Chalice - Item - World of Warcraft) for Fire Mage? Can It be better than Bell of Enraging Resonanse HC or DC: Volcano?

Which fights are you referring to? Many raiding Mages are Arcane MS for Firelands, but Fire is definetely the spec of choice for flying on Alysrazor.

With the buff from (25) stacks of Soaring power, several unique conditions are imposed. You gain extreme haste+crit, and Combustion has the potential to do absolutely frightening amounts of damage. If you wish to use controllable (on-use) trinkets to augment this damage, you'll find Mages are opting for a Moonwell Chalice on this fight. The chalice will also modify all Ignites during the Burnout phase (and all of your sub-gcd Pyroblasts in this phase are critting). Furthermore, for this phase: Bell (crit) is not needed. DMC (proc) and Bell (proc) would be nice if they were up, but you can't guarantee that during those precise ~25 seconds when you need it.

Has anyone been able to verify that the hotfix to Combustion means that it is also now subject to damage INCREASING modifiers?

I killed Heroic Alysrazor just a few hours ago, and Combustion still peaked at 2 million dps (boss + impact onto the adds).

Napwneon · 07/27/11, 5:16 PM

Originally Posted by Tyrian

Which fights are you referring to? Many raiding Mages are Arcane MS for Firelands, but Fire is definetely the spec of choice for flying on Alysrazor.

With the buff from (25) stacks of Soaring power, several unique conditions are imposed. You gain extreme haste+crit, and Combustion has the potential to do absolutely frightening amounts of damage. If you wish to use controllable (on-use) trinkets to augment this damage, you'll find Mages are opting for a Moonwell Chalice on this fight. The chalice will also modify all Ignites during the Burnout phase (and all of your sub-gcd Pyroblasts in this phase are critting). Furthermore, for this phase: Bell (crit) is not needed. DMC (proc) and Bell (proc) would be nice if they were up, but you can't guarantee that during those precise ~25 seconds when you need it.

I killed Heroic Alysrazor just a few hours ago, and Combustion still peaked at 2 million dps (boss + impact onto the adds).

Unfortunately, Moonwell Chalice has a range limitation. Popping it while in the air means it spawns on the ground and out of range. As a result, the on-use is only beneficial during the ground burn phase.