Cataclysm Fire Mage Compendium - Page 40

Moonfaxx · 08/12/11, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by Intermission

Not really, but you can use Pyromaniac - Spell - World of Warcraft as an excuse.

My understanding is that the multiplicative nature of haste makes Pyromaniac incredibly valuable with regard to added damage on Alysrazor herself during the Burnout phase. Is this incorrect?

amped · 08/12/11, 6:04 PM

Originally Posted by Moonfaxx

My understanding is that the multiplicative nature of haste makes Pyromaniac incredibly valuable with regard to added damage on Alysrazor herself during the Burnout phase. Is this incorrect?

It seems to be correct. All haste modifiers, including Pyromaniac and Blazing Power, stack multiplicatively.

1.3 (TW)* 1.2 (BS) * 2 (25BP) * 1.05 (Raid) * 1.03 (NWP) * 1.03 (DI) * 1.14 (Gear) = 3.9621, or 396.21% Haste

1.3 (TW)* 1.2 (BS) * 2 (25BP) * 1.05 (Raid) * 1.03 (NWP) * 1.03 (DI) * 1.14 (Gear) * 1.1 (Pyromaniac) = 4.3583, or 435.83% Haste.

With all haste modifiers together, Pyromaniac is adding 39.62% haste, or 4 additional ticks of Combustion (435% haste is the 44th additional tick break-point) and 1 additional tick of Living Bomb/Pyroblast/Frostfire Bolt (Haste breakpoints are 387.5%, 412.5% and 437.5%).

Moonfaxx · 08/12/11, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by Cheelout

In order for your Combustion to gain benefit from Pyromaniac, Pyromaniac must already be up.

Is this situation unique to Pyromaniac? It is my understanding that DoT tick frequency is calculated (and re-calculated) over the course of the DoT. What you're saying seems to indicate the old method of thinking; that is to say that the haste you possess when the DoT is cast is the haste at which the ticking will occur for the life of the DoT regardless of changes in haste levels after the initial cast. Unless Pyromaniac is a unique case (or I am simply incorrect), Combustion (and other DoTs) will ultimately benefit from Pyromaniac regardless of which one is applied first.

Edit: Thanks, Maje. This will certainly require some adjustments to my method of thinking. This post can safely be deleted.

Maje · 08/12/11, 6:38 PM

You are, the only value that's recalculated per tick (on any dot) is you crit rate, everything else stays the same from the application time.

Knorro · 08/13/11, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Cheelout

Soul Casket is just an awful decision all around. If the argument is -
1. You can use 1926 Spellpower with your Combuston, i say I would rather have 1277 Intellect with my Combustion.
2. If the argument is 168 Passive Mastery, thats not a terrible line of reasoning, but your net gain of 1277(Roz)+1600(DMC:V)+580(LWE)= 3457 Intellect(Nearly double your total Intellect) is hilariously good.
3. Crit rating is not wasted for this fight - For a large portion of the fight you dont have 25 stacks, and having effective uptime on your Ignites is the name of the game anyway.(I.e. - Not having Crit Ignites is wasting the vast majority of any mastery you create for yourself anyway.)

1. That doesn't make sense at all. Why would you prefer 1277int over 1926 spellpower in the scenario where you want the maximum amount of Damage at one point in the fight? 1277int is way worse than 1926 spellpower even in an environment where you aren't crit-capped (according to rawr if you want a prove, but i'm quite sure thats common sense). With crit-cap int and spellpower should have roughly the same value making 1926 Spellpower even more superior to 1277 Intellect.

2. 2180 int (DMC+LWE) + 1926 Spellpower (Soul Casket) is still better than 3457 Intellect.

3. Crit actually IS quite wasted. I had a 48% uptime of "Alysra's Razor" (+75% crit) on our last kill which leaves you with only ~50% of the encounter-time where crit is actually doing anything. Lets say the fight duration is 10 minutes (which is quite common), you will be without crit-cap for 5 minutes. BUT in these 5 minutes you will only do about 10-15% of your total damage done. So the real damage-gain through critrating is extremely low.

Originally Posted by Cheelout

2 Million DPS - Fire Mage - Heroic Alysrazor - YouTube (If you havent seen the 2 Million DPS peak :P)

Is this your video? 169k ticks aren't anything special at all.
[20:04:42.624] Knoxsi Combustion Alysrazor *272861* (World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis)
And i'm pretty sure there are people around who can pull off even more. So it's not a very good way to underline your arguments if that was your intention.

dreamendless · 08/13/11, 9:35 PM

I'm torn out between two choices: Moonwell Chalice+Soul Casket // DMC:Volcano+Soul Casket. We haven't seen too many burnout phases yet but we're getting there, but as far as I'm concerned Moonwell is pretty useless to me due to its nature and its stupid tendency to place itself to the ground (I still don't get why they needed such an absolutely retarded mechanic for that trinket) but it definitely will pay off in the burn outphase.

So my question is; is 1926 spellpower more valuable than 1700 mastery in burnout phase?

Esarael · 08/14/11, 2:57 PM

Go with the MWC. Your Combustion will do the majority of your damage, and also the Ignite. Generally, your gear should be aiming at mastery for this fight (which is great, since we're using Arcane on other encounters and we gear mastery for Arcane).

Remember that activating MWC puts other on use trinkets in a 20-sec cooldown, so you should aim for an on use trinket and a proc trinket, such as DMC:V, Theralion's Mirror or Necromantic Focus.

fok · 08/15/11, 2:15 AM

I'm investigated top 10 mages on WoL and don't understand why nobody takes "Invocation" talent for Alysrazor encounter?
Pure +10% damage on phases is 5 mil, maybe a way more, it's very roughly number. So, overall damage for 600 seconds length fight is ~9.000 dps or more.
You can calculate the exact numbers.

dreamendless · 08/15/11, 9:25 AM

Considering the burn phase is considerably tight in terms of gcd's, I don't think we should write another think on the to-do list. Waiting for the druids to be gripped into the boss, catching an impact for Pyromaniac, fishing for another one to spread Combustion, and using your pot/trinket in the exact moment, the burn phase is already stressful enough for mages.

So waiting for the exact moment to land a Counter Spell and to use the Invocation buff to your advantage in that tight 8 seconds for the list you HAVE TO do, can be a lot more stressing. Although, it's good in theory and I believe it'll be widely used when people feel more comfortable with the fight.

Knorro · 08/19/11, 7:36 AM

The reason may also be that the "Top 10 Mages" are only Top 10 because they spread their combustion to the Druids. No combustion-spread and you aren't ranked in WoL, easy as that.

Even if you can pull off 300k Combustion-Ticks on Alysrazor you will do less DPS according to World of Logs than a random Mage who can only pull off 120k Ticks but spreads it to the Druids.

Another reason is that good guilds have a very short 2nd Burnout-Phase. Usually Alysrazor is dying only 5-10sec after she "crashes" the second time (if she crashes at all). This of course ruins your DPS on WoL, because you can't pull off a second big Combustion.

So the ranking on WoL is quite paradox for Alysrazor:
To get ranked you need a) a guild with quite low DPS which allows you to push your DPS by having a full second Burnout-Phase and b) you have to play the encounter the wrong way and instead of maximizing the DMG on the boss you have to do millions of wasted Damage on the Druid-Adds.

So the top 10 on WoL don't reflect the best 10 mages on this boss and they most likely don't use invocation because they don't have to / don't know how to min/max properly for this boss.

If there was a function for World of Logs which only shows "DPS done to Alysrazor" i'm quite sure you would see nearly all mages using Invocation.

Cheelout · 08/21/11, 2:05 AM

Originally Posted by Knorro

The reason may also be that the "Top 10 Mages" are only Top 10 because they spread their combustion to the Druids. No combustion-spread and you aren't ranked in WoL, easy as that.

Even if you can pull off 300k Combustion-Ticks on Alysrazor you will do less DPS according to World of Logs than a random Mage who can only pull off 120k Ticks but spreads it to the Druids.

So the ranking on WoL is quite paradox for Alysrazor:
To get ranked you need a) a guild with quite low DPS which allows you to push your DPS by having a full second Burnout-Phase and b) you have to play the encounter the wrong way and instead of maximizing the DMG on the boss you have to do millions of wasted Damage on the Druid-Adds.

Impacting the adds is NOT wasting damage- Impacting the adds to support a pre-pyromaniac combustion which in turn grants you more single target ticks, translating into 45% more damage from your single target dps.

If that's not clear - It IS mathmatically a single target DPS increase to impact to the adds pre-combustion -

dar3652 · 08/21/11, 7:15 PM

Top Mage parses Impact the Combustion to the adds, which is not beneficial to the fight and pads meters

amped · 08/21/11, 7:36 PM

Originally Posted by dar3652

Top Mage parses Impact the Combustion to the adds, which is not beneficial to the fight and pads meters

As has been said many, many times before, spreading Combustion / DoTs to the Clawshapers does do useless damage, but provides Pyromaniac to the Mage. Pyromaniac, as well as all haste modifiers, scales multiplicatively. I believe on my last Heroic Alysrazor kill it gave me just under 39% haste, greatly outweighing the 1-2 lost GCD's spent on Fire Blast.

• Intermission · 08/21/11, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by amped

As has been said many, many times before, spreading Combustion / DoTs to the Clawshapers does do useless damage, but provides Pyromaniac to the Mage. Pyromaniac, as well as all haste modifiers, scales multiplicatively. I believe on my last Heroic Alysrazor kill it gave me just under 39% haste, greatly outweighing the 1-2 lost GCD's spent on Fire Blast.

Except you should Impact BEFORE the Combustion and get Pyromaniac from the Pyroblast DoT, and then cast a Combustion with that extra haste. Therefore Impacting anytime for the next 11 seconds (ie the entire duration of the Combustion) is a wasted GCD as Pyromaniac will still be in effect.

Impacting Combustion is for meter padding. It always dies easily within 2 burn phases so I pad away for fun, but I dont pretend it's ideal.

Tyrian · 08/27/11, 5:44 PM

Why no1 doesnt take liberty of updating this thread?

You might be surprised at just how much time it takes. Arcane is the spec of choice for nearly every raiding situation now, excluding Alysrazor. It's no surprise many players have no interest in the spec anymore.

If someone is keen to remake and update a Fire thread for 4.2+, they should shoot a PM to one of the EJ moderators and express their interest.