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Old 12/08/11, 12:11 AM   #676
Lilzebra
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Smolderthorn
Ah sorry for not having specified. No I played as fire through 4.2. Rawr would occasionally recommend one non-int gem last patch. Currently, about half of the gems suggested by Rawr are hybrid haste/hit + int. This thread recommends inferno rubies in every slot. I've been going with the recommendations posted here, but am wondering if it is perhaps no longer correct to do so.

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Old 12/08/11, 3:47 AM   #677
Maje
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Mage
 
Naxxramas (EU)
With 4t13 there is an interesting mechanic that can be taken into account. You gain the cooldown reduction instantly at the time of your Combustion cast depending on the amount of Stolen Time stacks.

What this means is the following: suppose you cast combustion at the start of the fight with 0 stacks then the next time it's available is in 2 minutes, so 1st combustion (0 minutes) 2nd combustion (2 minutes). Now lets assume you wait untill you get the 10 stacks, for simplicity sake I'll take the chance to proc Stolen Time to be 100% (it's actually 50), so you need 10 casts to get that or around 20 seconds, so first combustion 0+20s second combustion 0+90s ie. you shaved of 30seconds.

Back to reality where stacks are granted at 50% chance, the expected number of casts before you get one stack is 2, from here on the numbers variate depending on your haste and crit (# of pyroblast!-s). But, assuming 4 seconds to generate 2 casts it takes 40 seconds to get 10 stacks, it sums out as a gain of 10 seconds over the case of 0m ,2m.

TLDR; With 4t13 it might be worth waiting for 10 stacks of stolen time before using combustion or in the generic sense you have around that time to use the first combustion without losing activations.

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Old 12/08/11, 7:01 AM   #678
Proudmoore
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Primitive Python modelling suggested that a 10-stack mean time would be approximately 36s, with one standard deviation being approximately -3/+7s (the distribution is obviously sharply biased by a minimum time at 100% proc chance). That took account of the self-interaction, and living bomb recasts, but only assumed a static chance per cast to proc Hot Streak. I no longer have the code, but it assumed of the order of 1900 base haste.

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Old 12/08/11, 12:14 PM   #679
Pikenzi
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Mage
 
Neptulon (EU)
Originally Posted by Maje View Post
With 4t13 there is an interesting mechanic that can be taken into account. You gain the cooldown reduction instantly at the time of your Combustion cast depending on the amount of Stolen Time stacks.

What this means is the following: suppose you cast combustion at the start of the fight with 0 stacks then the next time it's available is in 2 minutes, so 1st combustion (0 minutes) 2nd combustion (2 minutes). Now lets assume you wait untill you get the 10 stacks, for simplicity sake I'll take the chance to proc Stolen Time to be 100% (it's actually 50), so you need 10 casts to get that or around 20 seconds, so first combustion 0+20s second combustion 0+90s ie. you shaved of 30seconds.

Back to reality where stacks are granted at 50% chance, the expected number of casts before you get one stack is 2, from here on the numbers variate depending on your haste and crit (# of pyroblast!-s). But, assuming 4 seconds to generate 2 casts it takes 40 seconds to get 10 stacks, it sums out as a gain of 10 seconds over the case of 0m ,2m.

TLDR; With 4t13 it might be worth waiting for 10 stacks of stolen time before using combustion or in the generic sense you have around that time to use the first combustion without losing activations.
However in the "real world" combustion is a proc and not really so much of a cooldown. There is no guarantee that once you have stacked the 2pt13 to full you will get a suitable ignite in the next 0-20s at least.

I have been thinking about the optimal time to pop the first one as well, but to me it seems more important to make sure that 1) your ignite is over a certain threshold (taking prepot into account) and 2) you have gained enough stacks to satisfy the 2005 treshold or alternatively can compensate with a larger ignite (I use 10% for on the fly calculations, but 1/13 is more accurate I think).

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Old 12/08/11, 12:57 PM   #680
Maje
Don Flamenco
 
Gnome Mage
 
Naxxramas (EU)
The main conclusion isn't to wait for 10 stacks before using it, but rather, that for the first Combustion you have about 40s-50s window to use it and still have the same amount of activations in a fight.

It doesn't generally help with the second and the third ones, they will work the same way, ie. you'll still wait for a 'good enough' ignite to use it and will still have to gouge the fight duration to know how many you could optimally fit.

Speaking of, it would be good to have those rules or rather restrictions in simc. something in the order of: assuming a 6m fight the most I can fit is 5 activations, the average Ignite I expect in a fight being X and breakpoints in the fight duration past which you lose an activation if you wait to long. Although I understand it's probably not trivial.

Last edited by Maje : 12/08/11 at 1:05 PM.

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Old 12/08/11, 4:33 PM   #681
Rookee
Glass Joe
 
Pandaren Hunter
 
Barthilas
I am currently at the 2005 haste threshold with 4 pc T12. Yesterday I got 2 pieces of the tier 13 set (chest and legs). I played around with SimC and breaking my 4set T12 and using 2 pc T12 and 2 pc T13 while scaling back 500 haste is showing roughly around a 1k dps increase, but there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that one must not break 4 pc T12 until you have access to 4 pc T13. My SimC was set to patchwerk with all buffs except focus magic and dark intent. Is SimC inaccurate in this case or breaking 4 pc T12 for 2 pc T13 is really a dps increase?

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Old 12/08/11, 6:14 PM   #682
emesis
Glass Joe
 
Human Mage
 
Bonechewer
Your T12 pieces are all iLvl 378, I wouldn't hesitate to replace legs/chest with 397 tier. I have 391 tier T12 except for head, and both Rawr/SIMC suggested swapping to 2+2 would be close to a breakeven for me; I went ahead and switched as it will make my remaining tier pieces obvious upgrades and to get some experience with the T13 2P bonus.

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Old 12/08/11, 8:29 PM   #683
fateswarm
Von Kaiser
 
fateswarm's Avatar
 
Goblin Mage
 
Lightning's Blade (EU)
Originally Posted by Rookee View Post
[..] there seems to be an overwhelming consensus that one must not break 4 pc T12 until you have access to 4 pc T13. My SimC was set to patchwerk with all buffs except focus magic and dark intent. Is SimC inaccurate in this case or breaking 4 pc T12 for 2 pc T13 is really a dps increase?
Rawr is also influential. Kavan reported today that T13 modelling could get some improvement due to the bonus being considered averaged and not at the top stack of it. However, I do not know the extend of that influence - it might be minimal.

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Old 12/09/11, 6:28 AM   #684
Ilyawen
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Die Todeskrallen (EU)
Considering the discussion on the timing of Combustion and the interaction with the 2pc/4pc-bonus of T13, it has been suggested using Arcane Blast in fire specc to stack up the hastebuff. I havent found anything on that in here yet, so I thought I'd bring it up. A few thoughts I had on this:

- The benefit is obviously the 100% ramp-up chance on a very short casttime. It should take maybe arround 12-15 seconds to fully stack up the 2pc, thus gaining the full benefit of the 4pc.

- It could allow reliably reforging haste to the 1505-value. Right now, albeit just by guesswork instead of math, I decided not to get rid of my haste in order to not sabotage my first combustion, which would otherwise be applied after the first few casts without the full buffstack (also, having so little haste makes me feel slow. And fat. And like my parents never loved me.)

- The question of getting a strong combustion obviously remains. This could be a double-edged sword. Starting off with AB would most likely be a DPS-loss in itself (by how much?), but it would also interact with trinket-proccs etc. This could be a gamble in both directions, having trinkets procc too early, but also getting full effect of all buffs when starting to go for the combustion. Could be less of an issue without trinkets like Volcano or Theralion.

- If it turns out to be useful for the first combustion, there also remains the question of repeating this every time the buff runs out. Again, without proper math, it would seem that the comparatively low value of haste except for the Combustion-plateau would make this inadvisable, as long as we reliably get 10 stacks before the next combustion-cast. With low values of haste, this might change in terms of stat-value?

- Finally, using one AB to prevent your stack from falling off seems like a decent solution to extremly bad RNG.

All these points are mere thoughts. I understand that right now Rawr cannot be used to model these issues clearly due to the way the 2pc is handled, so I can't really put forth any data on this. I'd appreciate any thoughts on the issue.

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Old 12/09/11, 8:24 AM   #685
Nathyiel
Von Kaiser
 
Nathyiel's Avatar
 
Goblin Mage
 
Sargeras (EU)
Why AB spam for stacking Stolen Times isn't a good option?
  1. AB can't trigger Ignite
  2. AB can't trigger Hot Streak
  3. AB don't benefit from the Fire spec bonus (+25%)

If you don't have Pyro! you can't have a good Combustion.

Last edited by Nathyiel : 12/09/11 at 8:27 AM. Reason: conclusion

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Old 12/09/11, 9:25 AM   #686
Todomeda
Glass Joe
 
Undead Mage
 
Die Silberne Hand (EU)
Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
Why AB spam for stacking Stolen Times isn't a good option?
  1. AB can't trigger Ignite
  2. AB can't trigger Hot Streak
  3. AB don't benefit from the Fire spec bonus (+25%)

If you don't have Pyro! you can't have a good Combustion.
There is surely a negativ side of stacking Stolen Time with Arcane Blast as a Fire mage but there are a two arguments we can't deny:

-The already mentioned 100% ramp up of the Buff
-The faster casttime of AB

The outcome of this is the faster usage of the second Combustion. So the main question is if there does exist an amount of ArcaneBlast worth to be cast for stacking Stolen Time regarding the average lost of Ignite und Hot-Streak-Procs. Something like : cast 5 Arcane Blasts and then continue with Fireball. I am not able to simulate this but I hope the main Idea is clear.

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Old 12/09/11, 10:32 AM   #687
angayelle
Piston Honda
 
Human Mage
 
Nordrassil (EU)
Refreshing Stolen time with AB before it fall off is indeed a great idea.


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Old 12/09/11, 12:22 PM   #688
Ilyawen
Von Kaiser
 
Undead Mage
 
Die Todeskrallen (EU)
Originally Posted by Nathyiel View Post
Why AB spam for stacking Stolen Times isn't a good option?
  1. AB can't trigger Ignite
  2. AB can't trigger Hot Streak
  3. AB don't benefit from the Fire spec bonus (+25%)

If you don't have Pyro! you can't have a good Combustion.
Thank you for explaining the mage to me. I also recently noticed that AB wasnt a fire spell. Now, back on topic, I tried some very rough calculations:

Given a normal gearset, stacking up the buff should take around 13 seconds with AB. In this time as fire I would cast ~6 fireballs and a HS-Pyro, adding up to a generous value of 350.000 DMG. I would have triggered my Combustion at ~3 Stacks of my setbonus, resulting in a CD-reduction of 10 seconds.

Casting the 10 Arcane Blasts during this time would get me ~200.000 DMG. I would have 10 stacks of my setbonus, resulting in a CD-reduction of 50 seconds. Taking another few seconds to ramp um a combustion reduces this to effectively ~38 seconds.

This means I have to weigh the ~150.000 DMG lost against the value of having:
- Combustion available ~28 seconds earlier the second time.
- Reliably having stacking trinkets activated for Combustion (relevant in this content).
- Proccing trinkets might go either way, proccing the first 10 seconds (bad) or after (good).
- Having the 500 haste available during Combustion, gaining either 1 tick (if you dont have 2005 on gear) or freeing up 500 haste to be reforged (if you have them right now).
- Apart from Combustion, higher uptime of the bonus, slightly increasing the value of the 2pc.

This so far is radically speculative. My guess would be that it would likely be valuable if 28-30 seconds less CD on Combustion actually gain you another cast of Combustion, this obviously depending on fight length. Also, 500 statpoints freed up in a way seem decent. Stacking again after the initial Combustion would obviously be less effective, unless bad RNG doesnt let you stack the buff till the cooldown comes up again.

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Old 12/13/11, 10:58 AM   #689
MalaclypseTY
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Mage
 
Black Dragonflight
After looking at Keldion's spreadsheet of haste break points that Zakalwe's linked one page back, I'm wondering if it might be worth it to go for 2011 haste instead of 2005. According to the sheet that is the point when combustion will get the next tick while under blood lust assuming 5% and 3/3 NWP. Such a trivial amount past 2005 and you almost always try to get a combustion during BL. I'm just not sure if the action priority list over 10k iterations or whatever will most likely get off combustions during BL.

I've only done a few tests in Simc using default priorities and it was trivial, but 2005 still beat it out, but maybe if you could try and force it to use combustion during lust it would change. Something maybe not possible in the sim as is, not sure? But for sure possible in game.

Last edited by MalaclypseTY : 12/13/11 at 3:36 PM.

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Old 12/13/11, 12:32 PM   #690
Nathyiel
Von Kaiser
 
Nathyiel's Avatar
 
Goblin Mage
 
Sargeras (EU)
You can try something like: actions+=/combustion,if=buff.bloodlust.up

It depend if you sim your fight with a BL at start or in execution phase. And don't forget RNG.

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