Elitist Jerks Cataclysm Fire Mage Compendium

 12/25/10, 11:45 PM #106 onlylucky13 Glass Joe   Coäl Undead Death Knight   Mal'Ganis Tyrian, thanks for posting the mathematical details regarding the soft haste cap. As a goblin, I get a 1% cast speed increase from the Time is Money racial. I wanted to add the details taking into account the goblin racial, so someone please check the math: 1.03 (3/3 Netherwind Presence) * 1.05 (raid buff) * 1.01 (goblin racial) * X (gear) = 1.125 X (gear) = 1.125 / 1.092315 = 1.0299226871 X % = 2.99226871 X rating = 2.99226871% * (128.05701 rating/%) = 383.18 Rounding up: 384 I haven't yet balanced to 384 exactly to test it, but hopefully the math checks out. For 2/3 Netherwind Presence as a goblin, I believe the required rating would be: 513, rounded up.
12/26/10, 12:54 AM   #107
Mcpepsi
Glass Joe

Wildhammer
 Originally Posted by Silverwind I just happen to have 648 haste with 2/3 NP and I can confirm that it is enough for the 5th tick. If I find an easy way to get 647, I will test this as well and edit this post.

You should be able to use a combination of BC gems to attain 1 less or more haste.

Reckless Flame Spessarite
Reckless Monarch Topaz
Reckless Pyrestone

Should be enough to do the trick.

 12/26/10, 11:07 AM #108 Blatty Glass Joe   Blatty Troll Mage   Sargeras (EU) I don't understand why there are no haste soft cap numbers for 1/3 NP, as 1/3 NP is currently part of the best talent specialization atm, unless you don't play with cauterize which is the biggest mistake possible for progress raiding.
12/26/10, 11:33 AM   #109
Tyrian
Bald Bull

Human Mage

Frostmourne
 as 1/3 NP is currently part of the best talent specialization atm,
Can you provide more reasoning for this conclusion? I assume you're referring to the Fire build used in your secondary spec on the armory. This build doesn't make sense to me, outside of something being specially tailored towards a single target fight. But even if it is, why not just have 3/3 NP - and drop some of the AOE utility talents? If you're specially tailoring towards single target, why not go the whole way.

Furthermore, there was some analysis and discussion on Arcane Concentration in the first few pages here somewhere. Maje concluded the first point was indeed a very minor DPS increase, with the second and third being of even smaller value. Overall, it was concluded that the second/third points of Arcane Concentration were essentially trivial and unnecessary - with only the first potentially being approximately equal to Netherwind Presence. However, placing all three into Netherwind Presence will result in similar/slightly greater (we're talking about very small DPS differences here) DPS - and allow you to reforge away a little more Haste (after Soft Cap) into crit on gear.

We're open to ideas and suggestions, but I don't yet see how 1/3 NP builds have a compelling justification to exist. Currently, the two specs people are using are:

'Standard' spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Situational Pure Single target spec: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

With the DPS difference (for single target) between these two variations being very small. The latter gives up a ton of AOE potential for this disproportionately small benefit.

2/3 NP was included because many players feel 35 yard Impact range to be the acceptable minimum, instead of 30, and pull one point from Netherwind Presence. Obviously if players wanted a full 40 yard Impact range, they could drop another point from NP and indeed have 1/3 NP. I can easily edit the OP to include Haste Cap values for 1/3 anytime, just wondering if/when people actually would use that advice for a 1/3 spec: Just to increase Impact from 35 to 40 yards?

If any theorycrafters out there have some updated analysis / results on Arcane Concentration's value, please let us know! (My points above are based on comments several weeks/months old now). Furthermore, we're still trying to pin down the value of Haste between Simulationcraft and Rawr - and work out why they disagree. The refined accuracy of Haste values will directly impact decision making between AC and NP.

Last edited by Tyrian : 12/26/10 at 11:50 AM.

 12/27/10, 3:55 AM #110 Crey Glass Joe   Crey Undead Mage   Alleria Can we have some numbers of living bomb and pyro glyph? It seems pyro only beat living bomb on single target, and if can keep lb on 2 target, then LB glyph is better dps? The simulation data on single target shows LB is 14-16% total damage and pyro is 10-12%. It seems with 35% cri, the glyph is 1 cri in 20, that worth (2.8-1)/(2*8+12)=6.4% of pyro damage shows on simu data. And the LB glyph worth at least (65+70*1.4)/(65+70)=3.6% of LB damage, that doesn't count that you always have LB damage copied in combustion. (if consider that, should it be (10/120+1)*3.6%=3.9% of the LB damage on the simulation?) So the pyro glyph worth about 0.75% dps and LB worth around 0.5%? While other 2 prime glyph both worth more than 2% dps. Last edited by Crey : 12/27/10 at 9:48 AM.
 12/27/10, 5:09 AM #111 Maje Don Flamenco   Maje Gnome Mage   Naxxramas (EU) Simcarft currently uses an outdated formula for the T3 Hot Streak chance so the number of Pyroblast!s it expects is higher than what it should be. That aside the Living Bomb glyph works additively with the other talents so in reality it's less than 3% of what the LB does. The Pyroblast! glyph even if we forget the T3 HS numbers is problematic, it's listed as Pyroblast; there were a few bugs with Blizzard's implementation of different spell/abilities and their interaction with Pyroblast(!). It is extremely hard to test if the glyph actually works with the Hot Streak version of the spell (the same issue we will have with 4t11), assuming it does and tweaking the T3 HS numbers the Pyroblast glyph is slightly better than LB.
12/27/10, 9:54 AM   #112
Crey
Glass Joe

Alleria
 Originally Posted by Maje Simcarft currently uses an outdated formula for the T3 Hot Streak chance so the number of Pyroblast!s it expects is higher than what it should be. That aside the Living Bomb glyph works additively with the other talents so in reality it's less than 3% of what the LB does. The Pyroblast! glyph even if we forget the T3 HS numbers is problematic, it's listed as Pyroblast; there were a few bugs with Blizzard's implementation of different spell/abilities and their interaction with Pyroblast(!). It is extremely hard to test if the glyph actually works with the Hot Streak version of the spell (the same issue we will have with 4t11), assuming it does and tweaking the T3 HS numbers the Pyroblast glyph is slightly better than LB.
That is assuming single targe, right? And it seems in a lot of fights you can put LB on more than one target for some time. If pyro is only slightly better, then to use which is arguable, or maybe u want to switch glyphs each fight. Anyway, we still want to know the exact numbers of each glyph, so we can decide which to use.

 12/27/10, 1:27 PM #113 Rex92 Glass Joe   Zethren Undead Mage   Archimonde Hit vs Int I know it's been mentioned several times that Int > Hit. Is there a point at which this becomes true vs where its not? I'm having difficulty grasping the idea that a mage with 5-7% hit can do more damage than a 12-15% hit mage can if the first mage has significantly more int. How can int be better for you if you can't hit the boss?
 12/27/10, 1:53 PM #114 kiurys Glass Joe   kiurys Troll Mage   Black Dragonflight because the extra damage from Int > damage lost by missing. for example, as a *very* simple example to make you understand, what do you think is best: 1) a mage hitting for 9k and NOT missing 2) a mage hitting for 10k and having a 5% miss chance do the math and you will see
 12/27/10, 4:59 PM #115 trw1988 Glass Joe   Relientk Blood Elf Mage   Maelstrom I don't know if this question has been brought up about haste before, but do the spell tooltips accurately reflect how haste is lowering the cast time? For me, cast times appear to be shorter than they should be given the amount of haste I have from gear and talents. I have 923 haste on my gear which gives approximately 7.21% haste rating. I'm also 3/3 NP. Pyromaniac is not up and I do not have a 5% haste raid buff either. The way I calculate my cast time: Haste: 1.0721 (gear) x 1.03 (NP) = 1.104263 or 10.4263% Fireball: 2.5 s cast/1.104263 = 2.264 s cast Pyroblast: 3.5 s cast/1.104263 = 3.1695 s cast Scorch: 1.5 s cast/1.104263 = 1.358 s cast WoW tooltip cast times Fireball: 2.16 s cast Pyroblast: 3.02 s cast Scorch: 1.29 s cast At this time I'm not worrying about ticks of LB or Pyro, just about whether the tooltips are accurately showing casting time. Also, if the tooltip is accurate than what is the real calculation for haste changing cast speed. In addition, if anyone knows of a mod that measures my casting time in game, I will try it out and parse my results.
12/27/10, 9:25 PM   #116
Zaldinar
Don Flamenco

Human Mage

Arygos
 Originally Posted by Rex92 I know it's been mentioned several times that Int > Hit. Is there a point at which this becomes true vs where its not? I'm having difficulty grasping the idea that a mage with 5-7% hit can do more damage than a 12-15% hit mage can if the first mage has significantly more int. How can int be better for you if you can't hit the boss?
The reason that in the past Hit has outpaced other stats was its relatively cheap conversion relative to its benefit. That is, if we assume you are at some whacky point in gear scaling where 1% hit and 1% crit are worth the same amount, it took far less hit rating to get 1% hit than 1% crit. Historically.

Now, with the advent of Int->SP conversions for everyone, a relatively high conversion for hit rating to hit percentage ( 102.44 per 1% ), and Fire mages encountering scenarios where having more mana means more Fireballs can be cast which is a slightly higher output than the free Scorches, and it becomes worth it.

There will be a point, at some point, where one point of hit is a greater DPS contributor than one point of Int, but that may not be within reasonable gear limits, and or may require you to be ridiculously off balance with your DPS stats (10k Int and zero hit, for example).

 Originally Posted by trw1988 I don't know if this question has been brought up about haste before, but do the spell tooltips accurately reflect how haste is lowering the cast time? For me, cast times appear to be shorter than they should be given the amount of haste I have from gear and talents. I have 923 haste on my gear which gives approximately 7.21% haste rating. I'm also 3/3 NP. Pyromaniac is not up and I do not have a 5% haste raid buff either.
You are calculating your combined haste correctly as we would expect it to be. Mods that track your cast time will simply be telling you the same thing that your tooltip is, except to two more decimal places. This macro:

```/script spell, rank, displayName, icon, startTime, endTime, isTradeSkill, castID, interrupt = UnitCastingInfo("player")
Should display that value while you are casting the spell, so add a line to it for /cast SpellNameHere, and spam it against a target dummy, that should tell you what your cast time is according to your cast bar.

To truly model the game, we first must research it.
http://zaldinar.wordpress.com/
Proven TheoryCrafting Stuff, chain casting in a PTR near you soon.

 12/28/10, 2:49 AM #117 PsyKT Glass Joe   Synaptik Gnome Mage   Bloodscalp First of all, thanks for the compendium - it is excellent. Here is something you may want to add: Regarding Pyroblast vs. Pyroblast!: It seems keybinding a /cast Pyroblast! macro instead of keybinding the Pyroblast spell is well advised. Why? Following reasons: 1) If you try to cast Pyroblast when Hotstreak procs you'll notice you have to stand still for a 1/2 a second to do it, where as with Pyroblast! you can be jumping and insta-cast it. 2) If you are OOM and casting free scorch and proc a Hotstreak you won't be able to cost Pyroblast until it hits the minimum required mana (even though it is still a free spell and doesn't take away any mana...) I'm pretty sure it is not my addons causing this (definitely not reason 2 anyway), if it were though it would be either Bartender or Spellbinder.
 12/28/10, 4:31 AM #118 Maje Don Flamenco   Maje Gnome Mage   Naxxramas (EU) I ran a lengthy test to primarily check if 2t11 actually works on Pyroblast! on the way I also collected some more information on T3 Hot Streak, T4 HS wasn't selected, MA wasn't used and Critical Mass was on the target, P! glyph wasn't used; l85 vs l85 dummy Character crit rate: 21.28% Scorch: 15301 casts, 4169 crits (27.247% vs. expected of 21.28 + 5 = 26.28%) Pyroblast!: 1363 casts, 423 crits (31.034% vs. expected of 21.28 + 5 + 5 = 31.28%) Pyroblast! ticks: 5487 ticks, 1689 crits (30.782% vs expected of 31.28%) Hot Streak procs: 1426 (34.20% proc chance, at the crit rate of 21.28 (CM isn't taken into account)) As a conclusion 2t11 does in fact work for Pyroblast! and we have one more data point for T3 HS function. I hope to rerun the test in a few days with 2t11 + Glyph of Pyroblast! and a much higher crit rate (circa 32% I hope).
12/28/10, 1:26 PM   #119
Saruk
Piston Honda

Troll Mage

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Maje Scorch: 15301 casts, 4169 crits (27.247% vs. expected of 21.28 + 5 = 26.28%)
That's strange. With 15,301 scorches and an observed crit rate of 27.247%, at a 99% confidence interval you would expect the actual crit rate to be +/- 0.93. That gives you a lower bound of 26.32% and you state your actual crit at 26.28%. So your actual crit was either slightly higher than that, or you managed to achieve a 1/100 dice roll.

 12/28/10, 4:10 PM #120 Shaewyn Piston Honda   Shaewyn Draenei Mage   Malygos Maje: Thanks for the data set, especially a nice, large set. T3 HS seems to be lining up quite happily in a new formula: My guess is that the actual formula is something like $P(_{T3HS})= -2.25c + 0.8$, where c = character sheet crit. Also, this data set you've provided very implies that P(T3HS) is not affected by debuffs.

 Elitist Jerks Cataclysm Fire Mage Compendium