Frost Mage Discussion [Cataclysm] - Page 6

Max Rebo · 03/23/11, 10:24 AM

Things are looking a little bit better per the most recent 4.1 PTR patch notes posted on MMO-Champion:

Mage (Forums / 3.3.5 Talent Calculator / Cataclysm Talent Calculator / Beta Skills/Talents)

*Frostbolt damage has been increased by 10%.

Frost

*Fingers of Frost bonus damage applied to Ice Lance has been increased to 25%, up from 15%.

Lhivera posted on the WoW forums and indicated that the changes approximate to an 8% increase on a Patchwerk fight and a 5-6% increase on a helter-skelter fight. I can't confirm at the moment because the forums are down.

Zeldyrr · 03/23/11, 12:50 PM

I would like to update the OP to reflect changes in 4.1. Unfortunately my RL work schedule is preventing me from running significant numbers of SimC simulations (and other tools) so I am going to rely on help from the EJ frost mage community. I have a few questions I would like to address in the OP but please make sure any answers you contribute are based on sim results or analytically analysis, not "I think X is better than Y". Make sure whatever sim tool you use has been updated with that latest 4.1 PTR frost changes.

Open questions:

Current results in Rawr suggest Glyphs of Frostbolt and Molten Armor, with Deep Freeze and Frostfire Bolt being in a virtual tie. The latest changes raise the question of whether Glyph of Ice Lance claims the 3rd spot or not. Asked more generically, what are the three suggested glyphs for Frost post 4.1?
The accepted rotation includes holding a Fingers of Frost charge for use with a Brain Freeze FFB. With the relative increase Ice Lance damage under FoF versus FFB damage, is this still the case? Or does one want to cast IL as soon as FoF procs?
Ice lance damage under FoF is going up. Deep Freeze damage (especially if un-glyphed) has been dropped significantly since the original analyses. Normally one casts Freeze and uses one of the FoF procs to cast DF. But the cooldown on Freeze is shorter that DF. Does it possibly make sense to cast Freeze as soon as its cooldown is available and use both procs on IL? Or is DF damage still good enough (potentially unglyphed) to delay casting Freeze for a few GCDs.
Blizzard damage has been boosted by 70%. Where does that put frost AOE compared to the newly boosted AE and arcane mages? What about versus Fire?

If you have other questions you think I've missed, feel free to bring them up.

Light4 · 03/23/11, 2:40 PM

I want to ask how stat values are in general and with the 4.1. changes. Using mage armor and DF/FFB/FB glyphs I get very different results from Rawr and SimC for my toon. While SimC shows Crit/Haste/Mastery about equal, Rawr shows Mastery to be significantly worse that Haste and Crit. Unfortunately, my work prevents me from doing extensive simulations with different fight conditions, but if anybody is willing to spend some time on that, this might be a point to keep an eye on.

Nathyiel · 03/24/11, 6:01 AM

I have tested different option for glyph.

	Patchwerk	%
FB/FFB/DF	27223	0,00%
FB/IL/DF	26883	-1,25%
FB/MA/DF	26731	-1,81%
MA/FFB/DF	26857	-1,34%
MA/IL/DF	26515	-2,60%
FB/FFB/MA	26777	-1,64%
FB/IL/MA	26431	-2,91%

note: SimC 406.15 with 25k iterations.

Conclusion: The glyph of Frostbolt, Frostfire and Deep Freeze are still the better combination. The glyph of FB and Molten Armor used at the same time don't show a better mana's regen. The drop of DF is a loss of 20k to 30k on each Deep Freeze.

Zeldyrr · 03/24/11, 10:43 AM

Thanks for the tests...this is exactly what I need. I do have a few clarification questions about:

The glyph of FB and Molten Armor used at the same time don't show a better mana's regen.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. I don't understand how the Glyph of Molten armor would affect mana regen. I assume your SimC runs started in Molten and switched to Mage at some point. How long before that occurs? What percentage of the patchwerk sim were you in Molten vs Mage?

Nathyiel · 03/24/11, 11:10 AM

The same table with armor's up-time

	Patchwerk	%	%mage armor	%molten armor
FB/FFB/DF	27223	0,00%	66%	34%
FB/IL/DF	26883	-1,25%	65%	35%
FB/MA/DF	26731	-1,81%	65%	35%
MA/FFB/DF	26857	-1,34%	67%	33%
MA/IL/DF	26515	-2,60%	67%	33%
FB/FFB/MA	26777	-1,64%	65%	35%
FB/IL/MA	26431	-2,91%	65%	35%

note: SimC 406.15 with 25k iterations.

I was wondering if Master of Element could have return more mana with Molten armor and Frostbolt glyph but test prove that I was wrong.

euphemos · 03/24/11, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Nathyiel

The same table with armor's up-time

	Patchwerk	%	%mage armor	%molten armor
FB/FFB/DF	27223	0,00%	66%	34%
FB/IL/DF	26883	-1,25%	65%	35%
FB/MA/DF	26731	-1,81%	65%	35%
MA/FFB/DF	26857	-1,34%	67%	33%
MA/IL/DF	26515	-2,60%	67%	33%
FB/FFB/MA	26777	-1,64%	65%	35%
FB/IL/MA	26431	-2,91%	65%	35%

note: SimC 406.15 with 25k iterations.

I was wondering if Master of Element could have return more mana with Molten armor and Frostbolt glyph but test prove that I was wrong.

What's your Crit % without MA here?

Power · 03/24/11, 5:29 PM

SimC 406.15 with 10k iterations. fight length 450 sec

Mage_Frost_T11_372 : 27626dps
Mage_Frost_T11_372 with full time Mage Armor : 27642dps

This also frees up 2 talent points (Enduring Winter 1/3).

Zeldyrr · 03/24/11, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by Power

SimC 406.15 with 10k iterations. fight length 450 sec

Mage_Frost_T11_372 : 27626dps
Mage_Frost_T11_372 with full time Mage Armor : 27642dps

I'm confused by these results. There's no mana cost on armor so why wouldn't you start the fight in Molten and switch to Mage when mana gets tight? Even if that's 1/3 of the way into the fight, that's 1/3 of the fight with 3% more crit. I don't understand how 100% mage can be a dps increase.

citizenpete · 03/25/11, 2:36 AM

I`m confused either. Its absolutely impossible for me to play with Mage Armor, because I´m only getting the +5% Fury buff. I really need to switch, use Mana Gems and evocate. Entering the hardmodes lately with fight duration of 400sec and above makes it impossible with the usual 2/8/31. Maybe i have to delete the 2 points in Netherwind Presence in favor of Arcane Concentration. But with the latest buffs i need as much haste i can get so... ?

DrRumpus · 03/25/11, 4:30 AM

Switching armors is a gcd where you could be dealing damage instead. This result indicates that we should play without molten until we get higher tiers of gear so we can actually have some uptime on molten armor before we need to switch.
On the other hand current Frost profile has dispensable crit on gear. 19.9% crit (unbuffed) was enough to get 100% DF and FFB crit with molten. Somehow current profile has 21.63% crit (unbuffed) which probably devalues molten armor.

Nathyiel · 03/25/11, 4:53 AM

Originally Posted by euphemos

What's your Crit % without MA here?

I'm using the default BiS model with 1807 crit rating. I have made a few test and it seem that the crit cap for Ice lance is 1788 crit with 2pT11.

For the armor's switching, Molten armor is only use to crit capping DF and FFB in the initial burst phase where having a "hit" will be a huge loss. You switch to Mage Armor after that. If you have a delayed Bloodlust or a brust phase, you can switch back to Molten.

Is it possible to only use Molten Armor? Sorry, but the answer is no. Full Evocation is a big loss of DPS and 1 tick or 2 isn't big enough. The only exception is Blood elves.

Finally, don't forget RGN when you make test. Even with 10k iterations, the precision is only ±50 dps or highter. Personally, I use a 25k iterations on standard and 100k if you want strict result.

citizenpete · 03/25/11, 12:33 PM

Well I really understand that a loss of a gcd by switching armors and channeling a full evocation is not acceptable, but i really can`t effort to lose my Ice Lance cap! As mentioned before i only have the fury buff. My itemlvl is 359 with the 372 Firelord's Robes. At the moment 28.41% Crit without Molten is the maximum possible coupled with a huge loss of haste. But with the next item lets say the "372 Einhorn's Galoshes" the possibility is gone. Is there really no other way?
Now really everyone is able to battlerezz but only Warlocks and Fire Mages are able to support the raid with the 5% debuff? Maybe a mana reduction for the Frostbolt would give the Frost Mage the opportunity to be viable in a 10 men raid.

Hope you guys can help me. I need some epiphany : /

• Wizeowel · 03/25/11, 5:23 PM

Originally Posted by citizenpete

i really can`t effort to lose my Ice Lance cap!

Are you saying that stacking crit for a spell which is only a small part of your damage is more important to you than having enough mana?

Kaster · 03/25/11, 7:24 PM

What I usually do is start the fight with molten and swap once mana starts getting around the 30% range. To minimize the damage lost from the gcd I swap during a movement when I don't have a FoF charge. I then use mage the remainder of the fight. That way I figure I'm only missing out on 3.5k dmg from a non FoF'd Icelance. If it's a fight I expect to aoe in at all I just start with mage and leave it the whole fight.